Bitcoin

alb

Good discussion point, you can still send a transaction with 0 fees, but the miners will prioritise transactions with fees first, so it might take a while, but will get processed eventually. I believe originally the default transaction fee was actually 0, and the reason it was raised wasn't miner greed but that people were spamming the blockchain with transactions since they were free, which is a way to attack the network by overloading it with infinite transactions.

The current fee does commonly seem to be 0.0001 (I checked some transactions such as: https://blockchain.info/tx/9aee7dd22d0d335673b7f7c76d0ec2a14ad9cdf2f19245d2d3afce1c8775db7f ). This is currently about 7 US cents, or about 5 euro cents. This a great fee if you're sending lots of money internationally, but not so great if you're trying to make a micro-transaction of 5 cents. It's ballpark debit card fee, it's way cheaper than typical credit card fees.

I was reading a discussion about the future of how the fee will be suggested in the future reference client, and the devs said they're planning onmaking it a bit more dynamic based on the current price of a bitcoin.

The fees are not so important for the miner rewards at the moment anyway. Here's the most recently mined block at time of writing: https://blockchain.info/block-index/451465/00000000000000028ac53587ee6142bed275da6583360b92aecabd3aa37ba8fe The reward value in new coins was $16,762 the fees were only $107 It'll be years before the fees are a significant portion of it, by which time Bitcoin will most likely be hugely adopted or dead.

The flexibility with setting the fee will depend on the wallet you're using, some have a default, some allow the user to specify when making a transaction.

AtomicHorror

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It is an accident waiting to happen. The gobdaws will be taken for a ride, the smart guys already have taken their profit and can afford to lose whatever they have left in there. Nobody ever admits to being a gobdaw, which is why we have had Tulip bulbs, South Seas Bubble, sites at several hundred million an acre in D4 and shoddy boxes in Leitrim at €450k.:rolleyes:

That assumes the pattern of boom and bust will continue, which isn't a given.

pedroeibar1

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That assumes the pattern of boom and bust will continue, which isn't a given.

1, 2, 3, or A, B, C or Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall, or Hook, Line Sinker.

I’ve not bothered to read the thread in full, (not worth it) but the few half-educated posts I’ve seen are by a bunch of wannabe quants, a$$holes trying to impress each other.

As for the much vaunted Chinese input, nobody has yet noted or mentioned the Chinese propensity for and love of gambling. Go compare betting ($ volume) at Macau and Vegas. QED.

AtomicHorror

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

1, 2, 3, or A, B, C or Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall, or Hook, Line Sinker.

I’ve not bothered to read the thread in full, (not worth it) but the few half-educated posts I’ve seen are by a bunch of wannabe quants, a$$holes trying to impress each other.

And what does that have to do with anything? Doesn't add to your previous comment, doesn't counter my answer.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As for the much vaunted Chinese input, nobody has yet noted or mentioned the Chinese propensity for and love of gambling. Go compare betting ($ volume) at Macau and Vegas. QED.

There's a fair chance someone has mentioned it, doesn't make it relevant. The fact that Chinese people were able to spend bitcoins one day and not able the next, is the more important element. Gambling or just using as a currency- neither is much good if you can't cash your chips.

Whenever the usefulness of BTC changes, so does the price. Once is a correlation, but lots of times and it looks more like causation. That means a market that reacts quickly to changes in base value, and nothing like tulip mania or any of those other stock analogies.

Graham

All of the fluff, bluster and pseudo economic theory in the world isn't going to change the fact that currently, Bitcoin is not an appropriate payment method for most legitimate businesses.

There is no point saving 29c, €5 or €35 in transfer/exchange fees if the value you are receiving for your goods/services has a propensity for halving overnight (whatever the cause).

relaxed

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It is an accident waiting to happen. The gobdaws will be taken for a ride, the smart guys already have taken their profit and can afford to lose whatever they have left in there. Nobody ever admits to being a gobdaw, which is why we have had Tulip bulbs, South Seas Bubble, sites at several hundred million an acre in D4 and shoddy boxes in Leitrim at €450k.:rolleyes:

We have a new type of Gobdaw on this thread, the one that was all talky talk about how he was about to buy Bitcoin, then he spent a week talking it up, warning businesses that the ramifications of Bitcoin were unquestionably massive and finally conceded he was "lucky" he never actually bought any Bitcoin in the first place.

Stamply

relaxed wrote: »

We have a new type of Gobdaw on this thread, the one that was all talky talk about how he was about to buy Bitcoin, then he spent a week talking it up, warning businesses that the ramifications of Bitcoin were unquestionably massive and finally conceded he was "lucky" he never actually bought any Bitcoin in the first place.

The only relevant posts here are those analysing the merits, de-merits of Bitcoin in an informed manner... And then there is the troll half that do no research and bait the rest with ridiculous comments that don't stand up against 10seconds of consideration...

pedroeibar1

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And what does that have to do with anything? Doesn't add to your previous comment, doesn't counter my answer.

Busts always follow a boom, if you believe that Bitcoin is exempt from history I suggest you do a little research.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

There's a fair chance someone has mentioned it, doesn't make it relevant. The fact that Chinese people were able to spend bitcoins one day and not able the next, is the more important element. Gambling or just using as a currency- neither is much good if you can't cash your chips.

The point is that the Chinese love to gamble - Bitcoin is a gamble, pure and simple, it is in regulatory terms a scam and there will be losers.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Whenever the usefulness of BTC changes, so does the price. Once is a correlation, but lots of times and it looks more like causation. That means a market that reacts quickly to changes in base value, and nothing like tulip mania or any of those other stock analogies.

Several comments on this thread read like the posts of eejits who once took a daytrading course and like to impress with the language. The content is sadly lacking in point/counterpoint analysis.
There always are idiots who believe so strongly in their ideas that they cannot see wood from trees. No point in debating with them, let them play, Darwin has it covered.

AtomicHorror

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Busts always follow a boom, if you believe that Bitcoin is exempt from history I suggest you do a little research.

Busts always follow booms, because when exponential growth is followed by rapid decline, we label them as boom and bust respectively. When exponential growth is followed by a plateau, we don't call it a boom.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The point is that the Chinese love to gamble - Bitcoin is a gamble, pure and simple, it is in regulatory terms a scam and there will be losers.

All investment is a gamble. What's your point? You don't see crazy volatility in every sector the Chinese invest in, so how does that fit in with your theory that this is an influence the case of BTC? Why is that a more likely explanation than the far simpler point that the Chinese can no longer use bitcoins like they could a couple of weeks ago?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Several comments on this thread read like the posts of eejits who once took a daytrading course and like to impress with the language.

I can do you one better. I haven't even done a course. Tell you what, if I say something you think is nonsense, how about you explain why instead of this lame character assassination?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The content is sadly lacking in point/counterpoint analysis.

Right. Everyone but you is using big words to sound clever. It is lacking, yes. In part because people like you would rather throw around insults instead of tackling the meat of the arguments.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There always are idiots who believe so strongly in their ideas that they cannot see wood from trees. No point in debating with them, let them play, Darwin has it covered.

On this we agree.

alb

Another interesting talk by my favourite Bitcoin speaker Andreas Antonopoulos

Stamply

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Busts always follow booms, because when exponential growth is followed by rapid decline, we label them as boom and bust respectively. When exponential growth is followed by a plateau, we don't call it a boom.

Exactly, we call it growth...

CelticRambler

It's not boom or bust that will challenge BTC; it's paradigm shift. I belong to the generation that grew up with LPs which had printed on the inner sleeve a skull and cross-bones and the message "home taping is killing music". They were worried that teenagers like me would destroy the music industry with my low-end radio-cassette recorder and a spool of magnetic tape. I saved my first computer programs on that same tape, and we all thought it was cutting edge technology.

A few years later, the CD arrived, then the CD was displaced by the DVD, and that by BluRay, until here we are talking about using BTC to pay for electronic music and video file downloads, no hard copy required. The future success of BTC as a useful currency depends on today's digital economy continuing to develop in more or less the same way it has done in the last ten years. I just don't believe that that's likely. Something radical - such as bio-chips or affordable quantum computers - could ... will unleash so much computing power that a decade later, BTC's cryptography will look like a kindergarten exercise.

Alternatively, some major natural or man-made event will severely disrupt our global connectivity and we'll be back to trading with potatoes and sheep for a decade or more. BTC is too dependent on the digital platform to survive such an episode.

alb

CelticRambler wrote: »

Something radical - such as bio-chips or affordable quantum computers - could ... will unleash so much computing power that a decade later, BTC's cryptography will look like a kindergarten exercise.

Cracking the cryptography that is currently is one thing that could break Bitcoin, but you should realise it will also break the security of traditional banking of fiat, which is mostly electronic also. I can't speak as an expert about this, but I did some research on it, and apparently it's not a short term concern. If it starts to become a real possibilty then either the protocol could switch to a more complex cryptographic scheme ahead of time, or an alternative coin using more advanced cryptography could take BTCs place.

CelticRambler wrote: »

Alternatively, some major natural or man-made event will severely disrupt our global connectivity and we'll be back to trading with potatoes and sheep for a decade or more. BTC is too dependent on the digital platform to survive such an episode.

All bets are off in that case anyway, we'd be living in a different world.

Stamply

CelticRambler wrote: »

A few years later, the CD arrived, then the CD was displaced by the DVD, and that by BluRay, until here we are talking about using BTC to pay for electronic music and video file downloads, no hard copy required. The future success of BTC as a useful currency depends on today's digital economy continuing to develop in more or less the same way it has done in the last ten years. I just don't believe that that's likely. Something radical - such as bio-chips or affordable quantum computers - could ... will unleash so much computing power that a decade later, BTC's cryptography will look like a kindergarten exercise.

I'm no expert on Cryptography, but I have many friends in software and a cousin who is doing a PHD in cryptography, and I'm pretty sure they's say that that is a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of current cryptography. The existence of quantum computing would change the game completely, but whether it would be powerful enough to crack current cryptographic principles is very unlikely...

Although I get the point you're making about unknown-unknowns, I think its a bit of a moot point...

AtomicHorror

CelticRambler wrote: »

Alternatively, some major natural or man-made event will severely disrupt our global connectivity and we'll be back to trading with potatoes and sheep for a decade or more. BTC is too dependent on the digital platform to survive such an episode.

You just described a scenario in which all money is unusable. Yes, in a scenario in which all money is unusable, bitcoins... and indeed all other money... will be unusable.

Stamply

Interesting:
http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/20/technology/innovation/overstock-bitcoin/index.html

Graham

Stamply wrote: »

Interesting:
http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/20/technology/innovation/overstock-bitcoin/index.html

In other news, deliberately controversial Overstock CEO realises there is huge amounts of free publicity to be gained by accepting Bitcoin. Bitcoin's international team of pop-pom dancers and flag wavers break out the ra-ra skirts in support after a week which witnessed the value of their current Bitcoin holdings flushed down the tubes.

relaxed

Graham wrote: »

In other news, deliberately controversial Overstock CEO realises there is huge amounts of free publicity to be gained by accepting Bitcoin. Bitcoin's international team of pop-pom dancers and flag wavers break out the ra-ra skirts in support after a week which witnessed the value of their current Bitcoin holdings flushed down the tubes.

This is the key comment from the article: Overstock will need to "continually convert Bitcoins into dollars" to avoid losing money

So they think holding bitcoin will cause them to lose money.

Stamply

Fair comment...

AtomicHorror

Graham wrote: »

In other news, deliberately controversial Overstock CEO realises there is huge amounts of free publicity to be gained by accepting Bitcoin. Bitcoin's international team of pop-pom dancers and flag wavers break out the ra-ra skirts in support after a week which witnessed the value of their current Bitcoin holdings flushed down the tubes.

What's the point of this, really?

You think Overstock are accepting bitcoin as a publicity stunt. You think bitcoin holders are exaggerating the importance of this in order to prop up the price of their holdings. Would it really have been so hard to make your point without the sneering childishness?

relaxed

AtomicHorror wrote: »

What's the point of this, really?

You think Overstock are accepting bitcoin as a publicity stunt. You think bitcoin holders are exaggerating the importance of this in order to prop up the price of their holdings. Would it really have been so hard to make your point without the sneering childishness?

Of course people holding it will keep ramping it. Its human nature, no different to the housing boom in Ireland really.

I just did a quick search on Ebay and most of the coin variations below seem to be selling and getting bids, on no reserve auctions.

Anybody entering the game now would surely be better off buying a few of the lesser known variants and hoping it would enjoy rapid appreciation, as the Bitcoin speculative boat has long since sailed?

Bitcoin
Litecoin
Dogecoin
Grandcoin
Namecoin
Quarkcoin
Centcoin
XRP Ripple coin
Colossuscoin
Feathercoin
Orbitcoin
Worldcoin
Infinitecoin
MemoryCoin
Sexcoin
Bilcoin
Centpennies
Devcoin
Peercoin
Netcoin
Zetacoin

AtomicHorror

relaxed wrote: »

Of course people holding it will keep ramping it. Its human nature, no different to the housing boom in Ireland really.

The utility of my house does not increase just because you also buy one. The price goes up in response to demand, assuming supply is sufficiently limited, but nothing about my house's base value increases.

By contrast, the more people who adopt BTC, the greater its overall usefulness. So, yes different.

I wasn't suggesting that some BTC holders won't try to promote for the good of their holdings, just that this point could be made a lot more plainly, with less ham fisted sarcasm and preferably with some evidence to back it up.

relaxed wrote: »

Anybody entering the game now would surely be better off buying a few of the lesser known variants and hoping it would enjoy rapid appreciation, as the Bitcoin speculative boat has long since sailed?

Right now, the most likely contender to become established as widespread is still BTC. In the event that it does have such success, it's value is likely to increase by somewhere from 10-100 times it's current value.

It's far more likely that it will tank completely, but for speculators it's still attractive. For people who like the short term buy and sell game, then maybe the altcoins are worth a look, personally I don't have the time or energy to bother. Not sure I'd buy or sell crypto currencies on eBay though, apparently a lot of transaction reversal scams.

Graham

My previous post wasn't directed at anyone in particular so my apologies to anyone that is upset because they have decided that particular hat fits them.

Here's my position: I'm not anti Bitcoin (or any other crypto currency for that matter), I think Bitcoin MAY have a place in regular commerce at some point in the future.

This is the 'Entrepreneurial & Business Management' forum. In that context, some of the advice/comments in this thread are downright dangerous. People often come here looking to inform themselves on particular subjects directly relating to the running of their business. Would you really suggest to your Mother/Father/Sister/Brother/Friend that they convert a part of their trade into Bitcoins? What would you say to anyone now, that started accepting Bitcoin when this thread began. Given their Bitcoin balance would have halved in the last week? What would you say to anyone that can only pay their staff/suppliers/landlords half the amounts due this week?

Bitcoin MAY currently have a place in some specific businesses or when specific objectives are in play but generally speaking Bitcoin are currently best left to people who's business/hobby is speculating.

relaxed

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Not sure I'd buy or sell crypto currencies on eBay though, apparently a lot of transaction reversal scams.

Well Ebay and paypal fees alone are around 10%, so something doesn't stack up!

Stamply

Graham wrote: »

My previous post wasn't directed at anyone in particular so my apologies to anyone that is upset because they have decided that particular hat fits them.

Here's my position: I'm not anti Bitcoin (or any other crypto currency for that matter), I think Bitcoin MAY have a place in regular commerce at some point in the future.

This is the 'Entrepreneurial & Business Management' forum. In that context, some of the advice/comments in this thread are downright dangerous. People often come here looking to inform themselves on particular subjects directly relating to the running of their business. Would you really suggest to your Mother/Father/Sister/Brother/Friend that they convert a part of their trade into Bitcoins? What would you say to anyone now, that started accepting Bitcoin when this thread began. Given their Bitcoin balance would have halved in the last week? What would you say to anyone that can only pay their staff/suppliers/landlords half the amounts due this week?

Bitcoin MAY currently have a place in some specific businesses or when specific objectives are in play but generally speaking Bitcoin are currently best left to people who's business/hobby is speculating.

The reason that post is bull**** is because almost every BTC proponent here has stated numerous times that BTC is an extremely risky bet at the moment.

Bitcoins are certainly of interest to businesses due to their potential future as an easy-to-use web currency that makes payment online as easy as email. Even if you disagree that BTC is a good current investment, which is certainly up for debate, since when is future potential not of interest to business? Its a public service to inform businesses of powerful trends and considering the sheer pace of change on the web, BTC could be widespread in a mere 5 years.

Of course it might tank, but if it doesn't, if it is widely used among consumers in 5 years and business owners only learn about it then, they will be playing catch-up in the pacy world of online commerce...

If I was an established business owner now, I would certainly want to be aware of BTC, both in order to understand crypto-currency in general and to be aware of the use of the Bitcoin instantiation of it...

Graham

So your position is Bitcoin is an extremely risky bet at the moment but you should implement it anyway, or at least think about implementing it just in case it becomes important in the future.

Stamply

Graham wrote: »

So your position is Bitcoin is an extremely risky bet at the moment but you should implement it anyway, or at least think about implementing it just in case it becomes important in the future.

In absolutely no sense is that even close to what I said...

Whatever actions should be taken are particular to the business sector, to say the least...

For example, if I were in a band I'd be figuring out how to set up an easy way for fans to send me Bitcoin. This wouldn't cut into their existing revenue streams and they could convert them to euro/dollars very regularly. The flunctuation wouldn't matter because it would all be just extra money!

Wouldn't you say that musicians are businesses after all!?

Now put your straw men away please, they're upsetting the children...

relaxed

Stamply wrote: »

In absolutely no sense is that even close to what I said...

Whatever actions should be taken are particular to the business sector, to say the least...

For example, if I were in a band I'd be figuring out how to set up an easy way for fans to send me Bitcoin. This wouldn't cut into their existing revenue streams and they could convert them to euro/dollars very regularly. The flunctuation wouldn't matter because it would all be just extra money!

Wouldn't you say that musicians are businesses after all!?

Now put your straw men away please, they're upsetting the children...

Sure a band can just take PayPal, you can just email your payment to the bands email address?

Should the band setup for the 20 other crypto currencies out there or just bitcoin?

How much will it cost a band to implement bitcoin as a payment option?

Stamply

relaxed wrote: »

Sure a band can just take PayPal, you can just email your payment to the bands email address?

PayPal is not feasible for sending tiny payments.

Here is an easy way to accept Bitcoin using your email, but I haven't researched it and I am sure there are/will be soon many other easy ways...
https://coinbase.com/merchants

Should the band setup for the 20 other crypto currencies out there or just bitcoin?

No...

How much will it cost a band to implement bitcoin as a payment option?

Nothing...

Graham

Stamply wrote: »

Wouldn't you say that musicians are businesses after all!?

Bitcoin MAY currently have a place in some specific businesses or when specific objectives are in play but generally speaking Bitcoin are currently best left to people who's business/hobby is speculating.