Free Wifi coming for prisioners

kawasaki1100

Its in the papers today - free wifi will soon be available to prisioners in Irelands jails, are the Govt having a laugh or what?

srsly78

And yet they aren't allowed phones/tablets in mountjoy, so why?

Ah is it for the xbox? Great way to organise your criminal gang, just hang out in chatroom.

SoulandForm

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Its in the papers today - free wifi will soon be available to prisioners in Irelands jails, are the Govt having a laugh or what?

I hope so.

The way they are treated they need something to escape better than drugs and drink.

Holsten

Seems to be not happening.

And so what if it was? Helps with re-integration.

kawasaki1100

Holsten wrote: »

Seems to be not happening.

And so what if it was? Helps with re-integration.

Ha, now your havin a laugh.

SoulandForm

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Ha, now your havin a laugh.

Prison should be about punishment but it should also be about rehabilition.

Otherwise you might as well go back to hanging people for stealing a loaf of bread...

michael999999

Sure you can't expect all the bankers and fianna fail crooks thay will shortly be filling the cells, to go without there fix of the financial times online!

Jawgap

They'll be the bosses at GTA

magma69

SoulandForm wrote: »

Prison should be about punishment but it should also be about rehabilition.

Otherwise you might as well go back to hanging people for stealing a loaf of bread...

Prison should be solely about rehabilitation. Punishment without rehabilitation is moronic imo. It achieves nothing.

Mr Williams

Is there any country in the world that has Wifi in its jails ?

It sounds like a mad idea prisoners will be able to taunt their victims if they have unsupervised internet access.

SoulandForm

magma69 wrote: »

Prison should be solely about rehabilitation. Punishment without rehabilitation is moronic imo. It achieves nothing.

No people have hurt others- they deserve to hurt themselves. That said Im completely opposed to the cruel prison conditions we have. Both are needed but at the moment we have punishment to such an extent that it just breeds bitterness and the likelihood of re-offending. The way the prisons are now they just create crime.

kawasaki1100

SoulandForm wrote: »

Prison should be about punishment but it should also be about rehabilition.

Otherwise you might as well go back to hanging people for stealing a loaf of bread...

Awe ok, so should we pamper the 7 scumbags that robbed and terrorised the family in Co Tipp last week? i for one dont think so!

SoulandForm

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

Awe ok, so should we pamper the 7 scumbags that robbed and terrorised the family in Co Tipp last week? i for one dont think so!

They maybe scumbags- but someone can be a scumbag and change radically.

We are not talking about pampering them- just recognizing that they are also human beings with feelings and needs. If you totally dont recognize that and write them off as scumbags can you complain when they turn around and act like scumbags?

Holsten

Ok silly example, but which is better?

Prisoners get wi-fi, learn some new stuff, allows them to get jobs, never re-offend.

Prisoners get no wi-fi, don't learn ****, only get "punished".. come out of jail and rob you, your family, etc...

Eh?

brightspark

Why are prisoners given anything that many pensioners don't have?

Perhaps introduce workshops or other forms of useful work, where if they co-operate and work hard, then and only then can they get luxuries such as wifi, tv, games etc.

No working, no co-operation etc, then no luxuries, moved to colder cells, basic food etc. then they will learn that good behaviours are rewarded and bad behaviours are punished!

wexie

SoulandForm wrote: »

They maybe scumbags- but someone can be a scumbag and change radically.

We are not talking about pampering them- just recognizing that they are also human beings with feelings and needs. If you totally dont recognize that and write them off as scumbags can you complain when they turn around and act like scumbags?

So if we're nice to them they'll come round?

How about we do it the other way around?

They start acting like human beings and then we can treat them as such? Keep acting like animals.....expect to be treated like one.

magma69

SoulandForm wrote: »

No people have hurt others- they deserve to hurt themselves. That said Im completely opposed to the cruel prison conditions we have. Both are needed but at the moment we have punishment to such an extent that it just breeds bitterness and the likelihood of re-offending. The way the prisons are now they just create crime.

Like I said, if it doesn't lend itself to rehabilitation it's completely pointless.

Making life excessively tough does what exactly? Gives an emotionally charged feeling of justice for some but wouldn't it be more sensible to take the approach which reduces the probability of reoffending and causing hurt to more people.

The stats speak for themselves, prisons that treat prisoners more humanely have lower recidivism rates. That's not a bleeding heart liberal mindset. It's a rational one which saves the state money in the long run and leads to a healthier society.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013/03/12/comparing-the-us-and-norwegian-prison-systems/

Holsten

wexie wrote: »

So if we're nice to them they'll come round?

How about we do it the other way around?

They start acting like human beings and then we can treat them as such? Keep acting like animals.....expect to be treated like one.

Examples;

Your way - United States - Most people imprisoned in the world, highest levels of recidivism

Norway's Way - Lowest level of recidivism in the world.

Which is better for society?

SoulandForm

magma69 wrote: »

Like I said, if it doesn't lend itself to rehabilitation it's completely pointless.

Making life excessively tough does what exactly? Gives an emotionally charged feeling of justice for some but wouldn't it be more sensible to take the approach which reduces the probability of reoffending and causing hurt to more people.

The stats speak for themselves, prisons that treat prisoners more humanely have lower recidivism rates. That's not a bleeding heart liberal mindset. It's a rational one which saves the state money in the long run and leads to a healthier society.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013/03/12/comparing-the-us-and-norwegian-prison-systems/

Im for punishing people-not dehumanizing them as currently happens, which does indeed lead to greater crime and warps people further. There is a difference.

brightspark

They don't just give the prisoners everything in Norway, they have to be earned!

There are 70 members of staff on the 2.6 sq km island during the day, 35 of whom are uniformed guards. Their main job is to count the prisoners – first thing in the morning, twice during the day at their workplaces, once en masse at a specific assembly point at 5pm, and finally at 11pm, when they are confined to their respective houses. Only four guards remain on the island after 4pm. Thorbjorn points out the small, brightly painted wooden bungalows dotted around the wintry landscape. “These are the houses for the prisoners,” he says. They accommodate up to six people. Every man has his own room and they share kitchen and other facilities. “The idea is they get used to living as they himself live when they are released.” Only one meal a day is provided in the dining hall. The men earn the equivalent of £6 a day and are given a food allowance each month of around £70 with which to buy provisions for their self-prepared breakfasts and evening meals from the island’s well-stocked mini-supermarket.

wexie

Holsten wrote: »

Examples;

Your way - United States - Most people imprisoned in the world, highest levels of recidivism

Norway's Way - Lowest level of recidivism in the world.

Which is better for society?

you'll probably disagree with me but the scum in norway seem to be a lot less feral than the ones we have here. Personally I think a lot of the ones here are already well beyond redemption.

And I've no issues with them being treated as humans, if they live up to it and show signs of wanting to better themselves.

But there's a difference between treating prisoners as humans and pampering them.

Keeping them warm and fed = treating as humans
free wifi = pampering.

it's a thin line between stopping them from re-offending and posing no threat to re-offending whatsoever.

SoulandForm

wexie wrote: »

So if we're nice to them they'll come round?

How about we do it the other way around?

They start acting like human beings and then we can treat them as such? Keep acting like animals.....expect to be treated like one.

Unfortunately society has not treated these people as human beings much of the time since they came out of the womb; those at the very bottom behave often as those at the very top. They did evil in the vast majority but that doesnt mean that they are essentially evil and with the right attention cant become good people. You cant right off people simply like that; if you were born into Darndale where would you be today?

kawasaki1100

SoulandForm wrote: »

They maybe scumbags- but someone can be a scumbag and change radically.

We are not talking about pampering them- just recognizing that they are also human beings with feelings and needs. If you totally dont recognize that and write them off as scumbags can you complain when they turn around and act like scumbags?

I take your point but i think once a scumbag always a scumbag. I have had two attempted break ins on my house by scumbags while i was in the house, unlike the unfortunate family in Tipp i came out the better of it.
Scumbags never learn.

wexie

SoulandForm wrote: »

Unfortunately society has not treated these people as human beings much of the time since they came out of the womb; those at the very bottom behave often as those at the very top. They did evil in the vast majority but that doesnt mean that they are essentially evil and with the right attention cant become good people. You cant right off people simply like that; if you were born into Darndale where would you be today?

Because it's a well known fact NO good people have come out of Darndale. EVER!!!

That sounds a bit too easy doesn't it?

SoulandForm

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

I take your point but i think once a scumbag always a scumbag. I have had two attempted break ins on my house by scumbags while i was in the house, unlike the unfortunate family in Tipp i came out the better of it.
Scumbags never learn.

Nonsense people can and do change. I have talked to people who have had very immoral/criminal pasts and yet managed to change around. People are not doomed in this life to evil- you sound like you believe about the lumpen proletariat the same way Hitler believed about the Jews.

magma69

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

I take your point but i think once a scumbag always a scumbag. I have had two attempted break ins on my house by scumbags while i was in the house, unlike the unfortunate family in Tipp i came out the better of it.
Scumbags never learn.

That's completely idiotic. Because you were a victim of some scumbags no criminal can ever rehabilitate. You're letting your emotions cloud any bit of sensibility.

brightspark

kawasaki1100 wrote: »

I take your point but i think once a scumbag always a scumbag. I have had two attempted break ins on my house by scumbags while i was in the house, unlike the unfortunate family in Tipp i came out the better of it.
Scumbags never learn.

Some here would almost say you should have left your door open, then they wouldn't need to break in, risking cuts, bruises who knows what! Then you should have carried the stuff to their van, don't want them hurting their backs!

After all they probably had a bad childhood and deserve your possessions, unlike you who only had to work to get them.

SoulandForm

wexie wrote: »

Because it's a well known fact NO good people have come out of Darndale. EVER!!!

That sounds a bit too easy doesn't it?

Of course there are- but if you live in a certain type of situation you are more likely to end up doing evil, same as if you were born into the elite as born into Darndale. There is a moral personal problem but there are also structural problems. If we reformed the evil structures of society we could massively reduce crime.

brightspark

magma69 wrote: »

That's completely idiotic. Because you were a victim of some scumbags no criminal can ever rehabilitate. You're letting your emotions cloud any bit of sensibility.

There are plenty of stories of people who have come through worse prison systems rehabilitating, some will change, some will never change!

wexie

SoulandForm wrote: »

Of course there are- but if you live in a certain type of situation you are more likely to end up doing evil, same as if you were born into the elite as born into Darndale. There is a moral personal problem but there are also structural problems. If we reformed the evil structures of society we could massively reduce crime.

errr....I thought you were talking sense there for a minute but you've lost me.

Like you already said, there are good people coming from areas like Darndale as well as there are bad.

Let's just assume the good ones had the same chances (or lack thereof) as the bad ones, and had to deal with the same prejudices (after all, no good people come from Darndale right?).

What's your point then?

magma69

brightspark wrote: »

There are plenty of stories of people who have come through worse prison systems rehabilitating, some will change, some will never change!

Show me the studies please.

SoulandForm

The good ones are good despite the conditions they forced into, some of the bad ones are bad because of them- and yes there are some who are just plain bad. You cannot ignore the structural causes of crime and just put it down to people being evil.

wexie wrote: »

errr....I thought you were talking sense there for a minute but you've lost me.

Like you already said, there are good people coming from areas like Darndale as well as there are bad.

Let's just assume the good ones had the same chances (or lack thereof) as the bad ones, and had to deal with the same prejudices (after all, no good people come from Darndale right?).

What's your point then?

Thoie

I can understand having internet access in classrooms, where it's locked down to educational sites, but can't see why wifi would be needed. The prisoners aren't supposed to have internet devices in the first place, and if was "needed" for things outside the classroom, surely a wired connection would suffice?

SoulandForm wrote: »

Nonsense people can and do change. I have talked to people who have had very immoral/criminal pasts and yet managed to change around.

Did those people go through the Irish prison system?

wexie

SoulandForm wrote: »

The good ones are good despite the conditions they forced into, some of the bad ones are bad because of them- and yes there are some who are just plain bad. You cannot ignore the structural causes of crime and just put it down to people being evil.

I never said I'm putting it down to anybody being evil, although no doubt some of them are. But...they've made choice to either avail of the (granted) limited opportunities offered them, or not take those and live as a burden on society.

That choice has nothing to do with 'the evil structures of society' and it's a choice that, in my opinion, should carry a very heavy consequence. Or at least consequences that increase in severity.

kawasaki1100

SoulandForm wrote: »

Nonsense people can and do change. I have talked to people who have had very immoral/criminal pasts and yet managed to change around. People are not doomed in this life to evil- you sound like you believe about the lumpen proletariat the same way Hitler believed about the Jews.

A very small percentage will possibly eventually cop on after many times behind bars but in general they think crime pays. Two years after the last incident at my house the Guards gave chase to the same gang of bullys in a stolen car that they ended up crashing in to a lampost - one of them ended up dead. Yipee - one less scumbag to worry about. They never learn!

brightspark

magma69 wrote: »

Show me the studies please.

Don't know of any studies, no doubt you have one that endorses the use of WiFi?

A quick google brings up a few examples

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-ex-criminals-who-completely-turned-their-careers-around-2012-6#former-hacker-kevin-mitnick-was-on-the-fbis-most-wanted-list-before-launching-his-own-security-firm-1

Regardless of any arguments for or against the treatment of prisoners, while we have people living in extreme poverty there is no justification for spending scarce resources on luxuries for those who have not earned them.

magma69

brightspark wrote: »

Don't know of any studies, no doubt you have one that endorses the use of WiFi?

A quick google brings up a few examples

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-ex-criminals-who-completely-turned-their-careers-around-2012-6#former-hacker-kevin-mitnick-was-on-the-fbis-most-wanted-list-before-launching-his-own-security-firm-1

Regardless of any arguments for or against the treatment of prisoners, while we have people living in extreme poverty there is no justification for spending scarce resources on luxuries for those who have not earned them.

Of some people that were rehabilitated, yes. But the rates of recidivism are far higher in systems like the Norwegian than in the U.S. So it's dishonest to just say, some rehabilitate and some don't in both systems.

The Norwegian system is far more effective in terms of recidivism. That's just the reality.

And in terms of cost, let's not forget how much the state saves if the prisoner doesn't return. I don't know the exact figures but I'd hazard a guess that if a few luxuries meant a significant reduction in recidivism, there would absolutely be a justification for doing so, especially if resources are scarce. The average annual cost to keep a prisoner here is 65 k.

wexie

magma69 wrote: »

Of some people that were rehabilitated, yes. But the rates of recidivism are far higher in systems like the Norwegian than in the U.S. So it's dishonest to just say, some rehabilitate and some don't in both systems.

The Norwegian system is far more effective in terms of recidivism. That's just the reality.

And in terms of cost, let's not forget how much the state saves if the prisoner doesn't return. I don't know the exact figures but I'd hazard a guess that if a few luxuries meant a significant reduction in recidivism, there would absolutely be a justification for doing so, especially if resources are scarce. The average cost to keep a prisoner here is 65 k.

Do you not think it's somewhat simplistic to put the recidivism rates just down to the prisons without having a look at the wider society the prisoners are returning into though?

Seems to me there might be some differences between the Norwegian and US societies besides how they treat their prisoners?

SoulandForm

wexie wrote: »

Do you not think it's somewhat simplistic to put the recidivism rates just down to the prisons without having a look at the wider society the prisoners are returning into though?

Seems to me there might be some differences between the Norwegian and US societies besides how they treat their prisoners?

So you are admitting social structure plays a part in crime?

If I was born into an RC as opposed to Protestant family in Ulster given my personality Id probably be in prison (for politicial crimes).

wexie

SoulandForm wrote: »

So you are admitting social structure plays a part in crime?

I was referring to the prevalence of guns and violence in comparison to the US. I don't think it'd be a valid argument in Ireland.

You still haven't quite explained what your' evil structures of society' are....

SoulandForm wrote: »

If I was born into an RC as opposed to Protestant family in Ulster given my personality Id probably be in prison (for politicial crimes).

Which would be due to a CHOICE you made.....the prison sentence would be the consequence of that choice.

Renegade Mechanic

magma69 wrote: »

Prison should be solely about rehabilitation. Punishment without rehabilitation is moronic imo. It achieves nothing.

Is called discipline.

kawasaki1100

SoulandForm wrote: »

So you are admitting social structure plays a part in crime?

If I was born into an RC as opposed to Protestant family in Ulster given my personality Id probably be in prison (for politicial crimes).

Ops, here we go!!!:rolleyes:

brightspark

magma69 wrote: »

And in terms of cost, let's not forget how much the state saves if the prisoner doesn't return. I don't know the exact figures but I'd hazard a guess that if a few luxuries meant a significant reduction in recidivism, there would absolutely be a justification for doing so, especially if resources are scarce. The average annual cost to keep a prisoner here is 65 k.

Perhaps we need to spend more on them when they are released and less while imprisoned?

Also if we locked people up for life then we would have a zero recidivism rate (excluding offences committed in prison of course) so the length of sentence for certain crimes will affect recidivism rates, a factor I doubt is taken into consideration.

magma69

wexie wrote: »

Do you not think it's somewhat simplistic to put the recidivism rates just down to the prisons without having a look at the wider society the prisoners are returning into though?

Seems to me there might be some differences between the Norwegian and US societies besides how they treat their prisoners?

Yes, I've taken that into consideration. Let's not forget, though, it's essentially the same society they came from when they went to prison.

But I do agree somewhat in that I would consider it easier for a Norwegian convict to reintegrate into a society with less poverty and more opportunity than say, here in Ireland.

I don't consider it a major factor, however, because as I said they couldn't be a functioning member of society before they went in, which is why they ended up there in the first place.

brightspark

Norway don't advertise this guy too much when looking for endorsement of their system.

http://m.thelocal.no/20130802/norwegian-burglar-jailed-for-671st-break-in

magma69

brightspark wrote: »

Perhaps we need to spend more on them when they are released and less while imprisoned?

Also if we locked people up for life then we would have a zero recidivism rate (excluding offences committed in prison of course) so the length of sentence for certain crimes will affect recidivism rates, a factor I doubt is taken into consideration.

I think some programs for convicts is a great idea. Offering social housing away from their home area, and away from possible bad influence. Work schemes, like internships where they would get an extra few quid in their social welfare and instill a work mentality, resulting hopefully in them getting full time work.

Admittedly, this is a bit idealistic as it would be an incredibly difficult task for a government to administer but I think it could be done.

wexie

magma69 wrote: »

Yes, I've taken that into consideration. Let's not forget, though, it's essentially the same society they came from when they went to prison.

But I do agree somewhat in that I would consider it easier for a Norwegian convict to reintegrate into a society with less poverty and more opportunity than say, here in Ireland.

I don't consider it a major factor, however, because as I said they couldn't be a functioning member of society before they went in, which is why they ended up there in the first place.

I'm not sure to be honest. While it's hard to argue with the merits of the Norwegian approach (in Norway that is) I've a half an idea if that approach was tried here we'd be looking at a lot of escaped convicts on a weekly basis.

I'm also pretty certain that this idyllic prison in Norway is something that has to be earned, ie. not just every convict ends up here.

There's little doubt in my mind though that prisons here could do more with regards to rehabilitation. While I absolutely believe that the convicts with 60+ convictions are probably beyond reach there has to be a good few of them that go in due to an honest mistake or a first ****up that should be able to be turned around.

I guess I agree with you partly so.


EDIT :just so there's no confusion, still think free wifi is absolute lunacy

Guy:Incognito

Lads with 70-100 convictions spending a few months in prison on and off every couple of years would continue that life whether they were ****ed in to a hole for the few months or put up in the Shelbourne. Prison sentences are too lenient and for some too hard to come by it seems. We may as well punish them for the while they're there.

and lol at the Irish prison system being a hell hole. I know a few people that have or are currently doing long stretches.

Black Swan

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brightspark

It looks like they don't want to give the prisoners wifi, instead they want to use wifi instead of having a wired system

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/jails-face-dilemma-over-wifi-237520.html

The service has grown frustrated with the wired cabling it uses for internet access and wants to have wireless free technology which would be less expensive and time consuming.

Justice Minister Alan Shatter said the trial of the technology will examine the technical issues which could arise from the use of wifi in a prison. He said it would “especially look at whether the signal could be restricted to meet the security requirements of the Irish Prison Service”.

“In particular, there could be no question of wifi being used to give prisoners open access to the internet,” Mr Shatter said.

magma69

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Lads with 70-100 convictions spending a few months in prison on and off every couple of years would continue that life whether they were ****ed in to a hole for the few months or put up in the Shelbourne. Prison sentences are too lenient and for some too hard to come by it seems. We may as well punish them for the while they're there.

and lol at the Irish prison system being a hell hole. I know a few people that have or are currently doing long stretches.

I think there should be a classification system of prisoners based on rehabilitation potential but prisoners can move up (or down) categories based on behaviour and participation.