Douglas, Cork (Grange to Carrigaline Road Bridge)

AugustusMinimus

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2013/11/26/new-bridge-help-end-nightmare-traffic-douglas/

A very necessary piece of infrastructure IMO. Will take significant levels of traffic out of Douglas.

A few other things could be done in the centre of Douglas. Altering the lane arrangement going from Douglas Court towards the Douglas Road would be one of them. Current arrangement is

Left Lane: Douglas West and Douglas Road
Right Lane: Well Road

Right lane should be Douglas Road and Well Road with Left Lane solely dedicated to Douglas West.

MrDerp

It's a good plan, and we need more of these small smart fixes around Cork - I just moved back

The elephant in the room remains the lack of N40 Eastbound ramps.

AugustusMinimus

Presume this is where the bridge will go.



If this can be done for just €4m, then it is crazy not to go ahead with it. It'll take significant pressure off the Douglas West - Church Road junction. Church Road is also a disaster with a narrow section caused by a bridge.

phatmanwc

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

If this can be done for just €4m

Was rubbing my eyes when I saw the €4m figure. I'll believe it when I see it! Still though, one of the more exciting little schemes around the city, great to see a little initiative and inventiveness being applied...

Out of interest, what traffic movements do you anticipate the new bridge absorbing, in terms of freeing up the village centre? I'd imagine it would primarily allow N40 traffic going/coming to/from the east (tunnel, Mahon Point etc.) to bypass the main street (via the lower Carrigaline Road, from the Fingerpost Roundabout/Rochestown Road), and access the Grange area over the new bridge. I couldn't foresee other movements (that would use the village centre, e.g. N40 westbound, or Douglas Road traffic) being affected too much.

With respect to N28-bound traffic, I'm sure most will now use the Carrigaline Road via the new bridge, as opposed to the backroad through Donnybrook, which a significant amount of traffic probably uses at present (as opposed to doubling back through the village centre onto the N28). Hence, I don't think these movements will have much of an effect on the village centre congestion...

Thoughts?

AugustusMinimus

It won't actually free up that much in the Village so to speak.

I'd anticipate the following will get better though.

1. Grange to Maryborough movements won't have to use Church Road anymore. The junction with Douglas West can get very bad at times.
2. Those going from the Douglas Road to Grange will now go through the fingerpost instead of going up Douglas West. Might actually make things worse outside of Douglas Court Shopping Centre.

I also think that traffic going down over the bridge from the Carrigaline Road and down Douglas Main Street might get worse.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A few other things could be done in the centre of Douglas. Altering the lane arrangement going from Douglas Court towards the Douglas Road would be one of them. Current arrangement is

Left Lane: Douglas West and Douglas Road
Right Lane: Well Road

Right lane should be Douglas Road and Well Road with Left Lane solely dedicated to Douglas West.

So when the traffic lights at the junction with Well Rd are against the traffic coming from the village, wanting to turn right onto Well Rd, your Douglas Rd traffic will also be stuck. Also what about those who are turning towards Douglas Shopping Centre and South Douglas Rd?

AugustusMinimus

kub wrote: »

So when the traffic lights at the junction with Well Rd are against the traffic coming from the village, wanting to turn right onto Well Rd, your Douglas Rd traffic will also be stuck.

Not much traffic at all goes up the Well Road from this side. Going left and straight on for the Douglas Road seem to be the 2 most popular option and yet are grouped together. At the moment, there are huge tail backs as people going left towards the shopping centre are being blocked by those waiting to go on towards the Douglas Road. Often the lane for the Well Road is completely empty.

kub wrote: »

Also what about those who are turning towards Douglas Shopping Centre and South Douglas Rd?

Not sure what you're talking about. The left lane would be to go towards this direction.

kub

Do you travel that way on school mornings? I get the impression that there is as much traffic heading for Well Rd as Douglas Rd then.

Victor

The idea is to get as much as possible of the traffic that doesn't belong in the village out of there, using traffic calming, turn bans and precinct improvement.

AugustusMinimus

Victor wrote: »

The idea is to get as much as possible of the traffic that doesn't belong in the village out of there, using traffic calming, turn bans and precinct improvement.

Douglas has a number of problems in this respect.

1. No access to the SRR eastwards and no access from the SRR westwards (without using the Bloomfield interchange and going through Rochestown.
2. Limited North-South access in the Douglas area. You have two options presently, the Douglas Road and the South Douglas Road. This creates two pinch points where both roads meet with the SRR.
3. Very poor junction design where the Douglas Road meets the Well Road / SRR and Douglas Main Street.
4. Traffic lights where Douglas West meets the South Douglas Road, allied to the roundabout where traffic comes off the SRR cause traffic chaos coming from the North.
5. No access to Douglas from Mahon and Blackrock outside using the Well Road or the SRR.
6. One single access point for Grange from Douglas (Douglas West).

All of these points force a lot of traffic through Douglas IMO. The scheme mentioned in my opening post doesn't resolve one of these problems but at least its a start.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Douglas has a number of problems in this respect.

1. No access to the SRR eastwards and no access from the SRR westwards (without using the Bloomfield interchange and going through Rochestown.
2. Limited North-South access in the Douglas area. You have two options presently, the Douglas Road and the South Douglas Road. This creates two pinch points where both roads meet with the SRR.
3. Very poor junction design where the Douglas Road meets the Well Road / SRR and Douglas Main Street.
4. Traffic lights where Douglas West meets the South Douglas Road, allied to the roundabout where traffic comes off the SRR cause traffic chaos coming from the North.
5. No access to Douglas from Mahon and Blackrock outside using the Well Road or the SRR.
6. One single access point for Grange from Douglas (Douglas West).

All of these points force a lot of traffic through Douglas IMO. The scheme mentioned in my opening post doesn't resolve one of these problems but at least its a start.

It is indeed a start but being honest with you i am of the opinion that Douglas Village should be in Cork City Councils area as opposed to the Counties area. I am living here for over 20 years and other than the new road through the old Douglas shopping centre, not much more has been done to help the flow of traffic through the village.
I think that the County Council have no experience of such traffic levels in urban areas, where as the City Council does.

Ludo

kub wrote: »

It is indeed a start but being honest with you i am of the opinion that Douglas Village should be in Cork City Councils area as opposed to the Counties area. I am living here for over 20 years and other than the new road through the old Douglas shopping centre, not much more has been done to help the flow of traffic through the village.
I think that the County Council have no experience of such traffic levels in urban areas, where as the City Council does.

The City Council would probably narrow the roads by making the footpaths wider, putting in silly cycle lanes on already narrow roads and getting rid of functioning roundabouts and replacing them with pointless light controlled junctions (I'm looking at you Skehard Road) like they seem to be doing everywhere else...no thanks.

kub

Ludo wrote: »

The City Council would probably narrow the roads by making the footpaths wider, putting in silly cycle lanes on already narrow roads and getting rid of functioning roundabouts and replacing them with pointless light controlled junctions (I'm looking at you Skehard Road) like they seem to be doing everywhere else...no thanks.

Well i must admit it seemed like a good idea especially 20 years ago, but looking at it just now you are correct.

AugustusMinimus

What Cork City Council would do if they got their hands on Douglas.

1. Replace the roundabout outside of Douglas Court Shopping Centre with traffic lights.
2. Replace the finger post with traffic lights.
3. Widen the path between Douglas Court and the end of Douglas Main Street in order to reduce the road to 2 lanes.
4. Install cycle paths everywhere.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What Cork City Council would do if they got their hands on Douglas.

1. Replace the roundabout outside of Douglas Court Shopping Centre with traffic lights.
2. Replace the finger post with traffic lights.
3. Widen the path between Douglas Court and the end of Douglas Main Street in order to reduce the road to 2 lanes.
4. Install cycle paths everywhere.

5. Bloody bus lanes all over the place.

AugustusMinimus

Thinking about it more. Here is how I think the whole vision will play out.

That new bridge is only part of the plan. The other part is linking Maryborough Hill and the Moneygurney Road with the Old Carrigaline Road via an updated Carr's Hill Interchange.



Red indicates the new bridge a new link road. Blue indicates a new route for traffic. This new route essentially facilitates the movement of traffic from Grange to Rochestown and Passage West without having to either go along Church Road or go through the Fingerpost Roundabout.

Accessing Grange from the South Ring Road would also dramatically improve. Instead of having to go through Douglas, traffic would come off at Carr's Hill Interchange and use the new bridge to access Grange, thereby taking huge levels of traffic out of Douglas.

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Thinking about it more. Here is how I think the whole vision will play out.

That new bridge is only part of the plan. The other part is linking Maryborough Hill and the Moneygurney Road with the Old Carrigaline Road via an updated Carr's Hill Interchange.

http://i60.tinypic.com/4liogx.png

Red indicates the new bridge a new link road. Blue indicates a new route for traffic. This new route essentially facilitates the movement of traffic from Grange to Rochestown and Passage West without having to either go along Church Road or go through the Fingerpost Roundabout.

Accessing Grange from the South Ring Road would also dramatically improve. Instead of having to go through Douglas, traffic would come off at Carr's Hill Interchange and use the new bridge to access Grange, thereby taking huge levels of traffic out of Douglas.

How is this coming along, will we see it beginning any time soon?

AugustusMinimus

kub wrote: »

How is this coming along, will we see it beginning any time soon?

I must email Deirdre Forde on the whole issue. That new bridge could be built within 2 or 3 years.

The new roundabout at the top of Maryborough Hill hopefully should be open within a year or so. The problem at the moment is that the land that the roundabout and link road is built on is owned by NAMA. Holding it up.

The final part of the jigsaw would be an upgraded Carrs Hill Interchange. Befre this is upgrade, there will be nothing more than a slip into Maryborough Hill from the N28 and a slip out (but will only be able to go in the direction of Carrigaline.

The interchange will be upgraded as part of the N28 dualling scheme. Could be 5 or 6 years before this is eventually done. It is viewed as one of the more important Cork developments though due to the development of a container port by Cork Port at Ringaskiddy.

SpaceTime

There's a very big issue with lack of access to the N40 East Bound though other than via the Rochestown Road.

They should really have planned in a junction years ago. I'm not sure where they could fit one now.

AugustusMinimus

SpaceTime wrote: »

There's a very big issue with lack of access to the N40 East Bound though other than via the Rochestown Road.

They should really have planned in a junction years ago. I'm not sure where they could fit one now.

Due to special constraints, an eastbound exist from Douglas simply won't happen.

A layout as shown above would go a long way to alleviate the issue though.

Upgrade Carrs Hill to a full 4/4 dumbbell, new bridge and new link road and you get the following advantages.

1. A new route from Grange to Moneygurney and west of Rochestown.
2. Full access to the N28 and N40 from Grange and Donnybrook without having to go through Douglas, the Fingerpost Roundabout or the junction between the N28 and the Rochestown road.

These are huge advantages. Will take huge traffic out of the centre of Douglas IMO. Mainly traffic going from the city to Donnybrook or the west of Grange. Absolute no brainer in my mind.

Very little costs for a huge amount of gain.

mydiscworld

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Due to special constraints, an eastbound exist from Douglas simply won't happen.

A layout as shown above would go a long way to alleviate the issue though.

Upgrade Carrs Hill to a full 4/4 dumbbell, new bridge and new link road and you get the following advantages.

1. A new route from Grange to Moneygurney and west of Rochestown.
2. Full access to the N28 and N40 from Grange and Donnybrook without having to go through Douglas, the Fingerpost Roundabout or the junction between the N28 and the Rochestown road.

These are huge advantages. Will take huge traffic out of the centre of Douglas IMO. Mainly traffic going from the city to Donnybrook or the west of Grange. Absolute no brainer in my mind.

Very little costs for a huge amount of gain.

Anyone sent this to the NRA and council?

AugustusMinimus

I've update my drawings to include a new 4/4 dumbbell at Carrs Hill. I might contact Deirdre Forde to see if this is exactly the plan. If not, I'll ask her to consider the huge benefits it would accrue.

Victor

Note that the N28 is much higher than the adjacent valley, so it wouldn't be practical to do quite what you've shown: http://binged.it/1yGD9eh However, some variation of it should be possible.

AugustusMinimus

Victor wrote: »

Note that the N28 is much higher than the adjacent valley, so it wouldn't be practical to do quite what you've shown: http://binged.it/1yGD9eh However, some variation of it should be possible.

To which side of the N28 are you referring ? There is already a link road built to link Moneygurney to the N28.

You think that it would require considerable earthworks to upgrade the Carrs Hill Interchange ?

kub

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I've update my drawings to include a new 4/4 dumbbell at Carrs Hill. I might contact Deirdre Forde to see if this is exactly the plan. If not, I'll ask her to consider the huge benefits it would accrue.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2pyu6ty.png

As per some plans from approx 6 years ago and if memory serves me correctly that looks right.

AugustusMinimus

Looks like there's some construction starting on where the Carrigaline Road side of the bridge would start. Wooden boarded doors put up at that end. Anyone know whats going on ?

_Kaiser_

Hope they plan to make the merge onto the N28 (heading towards Carrigaline) longer as part of it.

Also the road markings on that stretch are all over the place.. you can in theory overtake on a bend if you're heading to the N25 and anywhere along the overtaking lane as you then go down the hill

moyners

Any more news on this? There's been a couple of new house builds along the Carrigaline road in the last few months. I hope they've protected any land they'll need for the bridge?

AugustusMinimus

This layout has now been confirmed as going ahead.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/overhaul-of-rochestown-traffic-is-planned/1110249/

http://www.n28cork-ringaskiddy.com/A4%20Hand-out_Rev.%207_Final_161015.pdf

http://www.n28cork-ringaskiddy.com/MCT0597PR0007_Carr's%20Hill_161015.pdf

Here is the actual layout.

moyners

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

This layout has now been confirmed as going ahead.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/overhaul-of-rochestown-traffic-is-planned/1110249/

http://www.n28cork-ringaskiddy.com/A4%20Hand-out_Rev.%207_Final_161015.pdf



http://www.n28cork-ringaskiddy.com/MCT0597PR0007_Carr's%20Hill_161015.pdf

Here is the actual layout.

http://i61.tinypic.com/54d5wn.png

Only at public consultation stage so there may be some changes yet...

Most likely will go ahead as is, very little scope for alternatives

AugustusMinimus

Agreed. They prob don't have to close the slip for Mount Oval but given motorway restrictions, I can see why this is wanted.

This will provide a huge improvement in traffic flow, but only when the bridge over the Ballybrack stream is built.

The biggest effect is taking Donnybrook and Grange traffic out of Douglas. Will be huge improvements in Douglas West I feel. Hopefully there won't be too many objections. I really can't see why there would be.

moyners

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Agreed. They prob don't have to close the slip for Mount Oval but given motorway restrictions, I can see why this is wanted.

This will provide a huge improvement in traffic flow, but only when the bridge over the Ballybrack stream is built.

The biggest effect is taking Donnybrook and Grange traffic out of Douglas. Will be huge improvements in Douglas West I feel. Hopefully there won't be too many objections. I really can't see why there would be.

I'm afraid, given human nature, there will be objections aplenty. I used to live in Mt. Oval and closing the slip will be a huge nuisance for the residents. The planners seem to be worried people will rat run through Mt. Oval to go towards Garryduff and Moneygourney. I'm not sure if I agree with them.

AugustusMinimus

moyners wrote: »

I'm afraid, given human nature, there will be objections aplenty. I used to live in Mt. Oval and closing the slip will be a huge nuisance for the residents. The planners seem to be worried people will rat run through Mt. Oval to go towards Garryduff and Moneygourney. I'm not sure if I agree with them.

If anything the upgraded junction will make this even less likely.

Would think the majority of objections will be to closing the mount oval slip. Can't see why the upgraded junction would be objected to.


I know a lot of people might not agree with me, but is also consider closing the N40 offslip at Douglas West once the bridge and junction upgraded is done.

Congestion on the South Douglas road would disappear.

MrDerp

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I know a lot of people might not agree with me, but is also consider closing the N40 offslip at Douglas West once the bridge and junction upgraded is done.

Congestion on the South Douglas road would disappear.

Would that not push a lot of N40 eastbound Grange traffic into Frankfield? I lived in Frankfield for a year and it's pretty bad around Hanleys and the Kinsale Rd roundabout as it is. Grange road is very bad westbound and bad eastbound at peak times - this would make it very bad eastbound too I think.

wrt complaints, I think there'll be a portion of people from halfway up Maryborough hill that will be pretty annoyed, having to either go backwards up to moneygourney to get on the N28 towards the N40, or negotiate the fingerpost and rochestown road. They'll be losing a pretty decent route for N40 West and will surely add 10-15 mins for some in the morning. I'd see the greater good myself, but many won't.

I see that there's a Clarke's hill turning lane proposed for mount oval. This will help somewhat but there'll be a few annoyed - though their inconvenience will be minor.

All in all a fairly positive plan for the area

AugustusMinimus

I'm not sure that blocking Douglas West junction would force people through Frankfield.

For a start, I think the majority would take the Carrs Hill option and then cross over the new Ballybrack Bridge. This would suit everyone in Donnybrook and East part of Grange.

I think you'd see a huge reduction in traffic around Douglas West too.

Victor

Folks, can we not quote the same image several times - it's unfair on other users.

You can change the [noparse][img][/img] tags to [url][/url][/noparse] tags when quoting or snip the image altogether.

Moderator

Leonard Hofstadter

Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't see any evidence here about the bridge linking Ballybrack with the old Carrigaline road going ahead? These new roads seem to be in a completely different location, connecting Maryborough Ridge and Mount Oval with the new M28?

mikeym

captainspeed wrote: »

Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't see any evidence here about the bridge linking Ballybrack with the old Carrigaline road going ahead? These new roads seem to be in a completely different location, connecting Maryborough Ridge and Mount Oval with the new M28?

In the draft they say theres going to be more traffic on the R609.

So I presume they will build the bridge eventually when the motorway is up and running.

kub

captainspeed wrote: »

Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't see any evidence here about the bridge linking Ballybrack with the old Carrigaline road going ahead? These new roads seem to be in a completely different location, connecting Maryborough Ridge and Mount Oval with the new M28?

Yes the M28 project will look after Maryborough Ridge and Mount Oval. The bridge is a totally different project being financed by Cork County Council.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/new-bridge-help-end-nightmare-traffic-douglas/49837/

350125GO!

(Bump)

So... does anyone know if this bridge connecting Grange to the Carrigaline road is being built or what?

marno21

I can't be the only that thinks right now how useful this would be given the road closure at Douglas Village SC.

Although in saying that, traffic doesn't seem to have been too mental in the area recently. Carrs Hill and the Douglas flyover westbound have been a disaster though. The rubbernecking isn't helping either.

Chris_5339762

Rubbernecking is a bit part of the problem but I feel thats largely subsided now. With the closer of the Douglas Relief Road at the SC, traffic that would have taken this route to get onto the N40 west is now coming on at the N28 and Carrs Hill, clogging up the Douglas Flyover.

To be honest, it doesn't matter too much, its just a flavour of whats to come. Once Dunkettle is done and the M28 is built, all of the traffic that would have been held back at Dunkettle will be coupled with four lanes of merging traffic at Bloomfield squeezing onto two at the Douglas flyover and will be, by some measure, the worst bottleneck in Ireland when its all done. I really think people (planners included) are not aware of how bad it will be.

All for the sake of < 2km of widening, including that of the Douglas Viaduct. Which there is actually space to widen contary to popular belief.

marno21

Indeed. The Douglas flyover will be an absolutely scanadalous bottleneck going forward. 6 lanes merging into 2. The scale of that bottleneck is unprecedented with addition traffic now joining at the upgraded Carrs Hill interchange.

Carmageddon.

Any idea when the Douglas relief road by the SC is to reopen?

Victor

Which is the Douglas flyover?

marno21

Victor wrote: »

Which is the Douglas flyover?

The elevated 2 lane section of the N40 around J7 and J8 which has no hard shoulder and a narrow median. It’s a significant chokepoint on the N40 especially if there’s an incident

Victor

There are 4 lanes from west of Douglas to the bridge across the Douglas Estaury, so it's not just the elevated section.

Westbound
2 lanes on the elevated section become 3 lanes when the slip road joins.

Eastbound
3 lanes become 2 lanes when the slip roads diverge.

Where is it "6 lanes merging into 2"?

Chris_5339762

Two lanes westbound from the Dunkettle direction on the N40, and due to the arrangement of slip roads coming off the M28 (if it gets built) together with slip roads from the current Bloomfield junction, there will be four seperate lanes merging at that point. So six lanes, into the two going across the Viaduct. A riot that will be.

marno21

Victor wrote: »

There are 4 lanes from west of Douglas to the bridge across the Douglas Estaury, so it's not just the elevated section.

Westbound
2 lanes on the elevated section become 3 lanes when the slip road joins.

Eastbound
3 lanes become 2 lanes when the slip roads diverge.

Where is it "6 lanes merging into 2"?

When the M28 opens, at Rochestown it’ll be

2 lanes from the N40 westbound coming from Mahon
2 segregated lanes from the M28 northbound onto the N40
2 lanes as is currently from the R610 Rochestown Road onto the N40

The M28 will have additional traffic from the Port, expansion in Carrigaline and the additional houses being built at Maryborough, which will access the M28 via a full interchange at Carr’s Hill

marno21

I had a look at the drawings, it's actually like this.

M28 northbound splits from 2 lanes into 1 N40 east and 1 N40 west before the Rochestown merge

N40 West lane now has a flyover the Rochestown Road and 1 lane from Rochestown and 1 lane from M28 northbound merge just above the current N28/R610 merge at Bloomfield.

So at Bloomfield, it'll still be 2 lanes from M28/R610 merging with 2 lanes from N40 westbound. Still, those 4 lanes will be operating at near capacity.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

I had a look at the drawings, it's actually like this.

M28 northbound splits from 2 lanes into 1 N40 east and 1 N40 west before the Rochestown merge

N40 West lane now has a flyover the Rochestown Road and 1 lane from Rochestown and 1 lane from M28 northbound merge just above the current N28/R610 merge at Bloomfield.

So at Bloomfield, it'll still be 2 lanes from M28/R610 merging with 2 lanes from N40 westbound. Still, those 4 lanes will be operating at near capacity.

Where the M28 splits to go towards N40 east, how does the Rochestown road meet that? Will there be two slip-ramps from Rochestown road to the M28 northbound?

AugustusMinimus

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

I had a look at the drawings, it's actually like this.

M28 northbound splits from 2 lanes into 1 N40 east and 1 N40 west before the Rochestown merge

N40 West lane now has a flyover the Rochestown Road and 1 lane from Rochestown and 1 lane from M28 northbound merge just above the current N28/R610 merge at Bloomfield.

So at Bloomfield, it'll still be 2 lanes from M28/R610 merging with 2 lanes from N40 westbound. Still, those 4 lanes will be operating at near capacity.

Where the M28 splits to go towards N40 east, how does the Rochestown road meet that? Will there be two slip-ramps from Rochestown road to the M28 northbound?

The M28 north will split in 2 before Bloomfield. 2 lanes will travel to N40 west (newly constructed). 1 lane will go towards N40 east.

The road up off the Rochestown road will split into 2. One side will join up with the 2 lanes going N40 west. The only will merge with the 1 lane going N40 east.