When will the Medical Card misreporting and moaning stop

v638sg7k1a92bx

I think Newstalk and the Indo have to be the worst culprits. Lets just recap for a second; 48% of the Irish population has a medical card and now every child under the age of 5 will have access to free GP care. If a person has a long term or serious illness they will get to keep their medical card.
Almost every day, Newstalk are trying flog this non issue to death, and then all the tripe in the comments section of the Indo as if half the population lost their medical card.

More people now have access to free healthcare than ever before but yet somehow this is a stick to beat the government.

PRAF

Unfortunately it doesn't help the HSE when they take medical cards off people with terminal illnesses or those with chronic ailments that require a high level of medical attention. In fact, that's plain wrong.

Nevertheless you're right. We have record levels of medical cards out there. It's a spectacular PR own goal by Reilly, Dept of Health, and the HSE that the majority of people think the exact opposite is true

Fred Swanson

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v638sg7k1a92bx

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Realistically, if everybody says they have a long term illness or are terminally ill, are the HSE just supposed to take their word for it?

golfball37

I think anythng that highlights the complete waste of money the HSE are is a good thing tbh.

Sierra Oscar

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

If a person has a long term or serious illness they will get to keep their medical card.

Erm, have you being reading the very reports that you are attacking? The problem is that such people are losing their medical cards, or are seeing them being withdrawn to only be replaced with GP visit cards or the likes.

The HSE are reinstating them after forcing people, such as those that are terminally ill, to jump through crazy administrative loops.

It is the handling of the medical card review that people are taking issue with, not with the concept of the review itself.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Erm, have you being reading the very reports that you are attacking? The problem is that such people are losing their medical cards, or are seeing them being withdrawn to only be replaced with GP visit cards or the likes.

The HSE are reinstating them after forcing people, such as those that are terminally ill, to jump through crazy administrative loops.

It is the handling of the medical card review that people are taking issue with, not with the concept of the review itself.

Erm yourself. How many people have actually lost their medical that have long term or serious illness? The answer is zero!
BTW, if a person does have a medical card removed and replaced with a GP only card, the max they would pay in prescriptions would be €144 per month and the only reason they would be given a GP only card is because they would have been means tested showing that they could afford to pay €144 per month.

What are these crazy administrative hoops that people are supposed to be jumping through. Is it the renewal application form that you're referring to, are the HSE just supposed to take everybody's word and just accept they have a serious illness?

ceegee

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

Realistically, if everybody says they have a long term illness or are terminally ill, are the HSE just supposed to take their word for it?

Well its unlikely that someones MS would have gone away since they received their card.

It reminds me of the authorities in the UK writing to people to check if they were still disabled

v638sg7k1a92bx

ceegee wrote: »

Well its unlikely that someones MS would have gone away since they received their card.

It reminds me of the authorities in the UK writing to people to check if they were still disabled

Well HSE staff are not doctors, are you suggesting that medical cards are issued basis of HSE admin staffs' medical interpretation/diagnosis.

Next!

creedp

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Erm, have you being reading the very reports that you are attacking? The problem is that such people are losing their medical cards, or are seeing them being withdrawn to only be replaced with GP visit cards or the likes.

The HSE are reinstating them after forcing people, such as those that are terminally ill, to jump through crazy administrative loops.

It is the handling of the medical card review that people are taking issue with, not with the concept of the review itself.

Maybe we should dispense with the farce that is medical cards and actually provide health services to people who are ill? Now there a novel idea! It can't be the case that over 40% of the polulation has a significant need for health services. The problem with the medical card system is that it is designed to give free healthcare to people who have low incomes not free healthcare to sick people with high incomes. You can't have it both ways. Imagine to furore if say Denis O'Brien got a medical card becaue he has a chronic illness - or maybe he should get one - after all hasn't he paid his taxes!!

Sierra Oscar

creedp wrote: »

Maybe we should dispense with the farce that is medical cards and actually provide health services to people who are ill? Now there a novel idea! It can't be the case that over 40% of the polulation has a significant need for health services. The problem with the medical card system is that it is designed to give free healthcare to people who have low incomes not free healthcare to sick people with high incomes. You can't have it both ways. Imagine to furore if say Denis O'Brien got a medical card becaue he has a chronic illness - or maybe he should get one - after all hasn't he paid his taxes!!

The government is planning to dispense with the medical card system by introducing universal health insurance that will see everyone be compelled to enter into the new scheme. It remains to be seen as to whether that will be a good thing or bad thing.

creedp

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The government is planning to dispense with the medical card system by introducing universal health insurance that will see everyone be compelled to enter into the new scheme. It remains to be seen as to whether that will be a good thing or bad thing.

Anything that gets rid of the current medical card debacle can only be positive and result in Ireland coming into the 20th century not to mind the 21st century when it comes to providing a GP and other esential primary service to its population. In most cases though the contensious issue around medical cards has nothing to do with GP services but broader primary care services such as home care or physio/speech and language therapy, etc, etc which are difficult and/or very expensive to get in the private system. Its not free GP care we should be concerned about at all but access to decent quality essential primary care services in the public system which allow sick people to live in dignity at home or outside the hospital sector without the constant fear of losing the service because their income has increased by a € thereby bringing it above the medical card income threshold - absolute and utter madness of a system!

Sierra Oscar

creedp wrote: »

Its not free GP care we should be concerned about at all but access to decent quality essential primary care services in the public system

I would totally agree with you there, the primary care aspect of our healthcare system is actually one of the few things that is working relatively well at the moment despite severe cutbacks.

If you ask any patient to identify the negative aspects of our healthcare system then you will most likely hear them complain about our hospitals, which are in total disarray.

Instead of piling endless amounts of money into our hospitals we should instead be investing more money in primary care. It is the one sector of the health system that demonstrates it can work without needless bureaucrats meddling in its day to day running. If we invest more in primary care then we will prevent many people from needing to attend hospital, which in turn will reduce pressure on the hospitals.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would totally agree with you there, the primary care aspect of our healthcare system is actually one of the few things that is working relatively well at the moment despite severe cutbacks.

If you ask any patient to identify the negative aspects of our healthcare system then you will most likely hear them complain about our hospitals, which are in total disarray.

Instead of piling endless amounts of money into our hospitals we should instead be investing more money in primary care. It is the one sector of the health system that demonstrates it can work without needless bureaucrats meddling in its day to day running. If we invest more in primary care then we will prevent many people from needing to attend hospital, which in turn will reduce pressure on the hospitals.

This may appear to be a silly question, but what exactly is meant by primary care as I've heard people refer to emergency rooms as primary care. The term is used so much that it's meaning has become ambiguous.

source

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

Erm yourself. How many people have actually lost their medical that have long term or serious illness? The answer is zero!

My grandmother has Alzheimer's, she's 82 her only income is the old age pension and she's had her medical card taken away.

The HSE claim she is getting a private pension from her former employer, which she isn't, we had to go through loads of red tape to prove she is only on the old age pension, and even though they've been proven wrong, they haven't reinstated the card. It's "under review" Is what we're told when we ring.

She got the initial letter last May and we still haven't gotten it reinstated. So get your facts right before you start sprouting nonsense.

Sierra Oscar

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

Erm yourself. How many people have actually lost their medical that have long term or serious illness? The answer is zero!

Also, just to point out that you are completely wrong on that. Even the HSE would disagree with you, as a top HSE official admitted on PrimeTime a number of weeks ago that people with long term and serious illnesses had lost their medical cards.

creedp

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would totally agree with you there, the primary care aspect of our healthcare system is actually one of the few things that is working relatively well at the moment despite severe cutbacks.

If you ask any patient to identify the negative aspects of our healthcare system then you will most likely hear them complain about our hospitals, which are in total disarray.

Instead of piling endless amounts of money into our hospitals we should instead be investing more money in primary care. It is the one sector of the health system that demonstrates it can work without needless bureaucrats meddling in its day to day running. If we invest more in primary care then we will prevent many people from needing to attend hospital, which in turn will reduce pressure on the hospitals.

While I agree with almost everything you are saying here I don't think the primary care system is working well at present. The 2 tier system of medical card holders and non-medical card holders is a disaster. Why should someone who does not have an serious illness be able to have access to free GP care and pay max €300 per year for prescribed drugs, have free access to expensive aids/appliances and whatever limited level of primary care services suchas physio/speech and language/occupational therapy/home help/home nursing on top of free access to out-patient and in-patient services when someone with a serious chronic illness but earns a couple of euro above the income threshold cut off point has to pay €50 for each visit to the GP, a max of €1,800 for prescribed medication, has no entitlement to any of the publicly provided community based services (referered to above) and in addition has to pay €100 each visit to the A&E (unless first pays €50 to GP to get a piece of paper to say he needs to go to the A&E) and up to €750 a year for in-patient/daycare in a public hospital. For the non-medical card holder to say Ireland has a good primary care service he will have to be shelling out big money, in additon to all the public charges he faces, to attend private practitioners for pretty much everything. Again, this might be OK if you are well off but not if you are a low income worker (and your family) is trying to remain in work while trying to find the money to stay well enough to work.

IMO the following is very much abused when is comes to Irish public health services - access is prioritised based on clinical need and not ability to pay!

creedp

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Also, just to point out that you are completely wrong on that. Even the HSE would disagree with you, as a top HSE official admitted on PrimeTime a number of weeks ago that people with long term and serious illnesses had lost their medical cards.

Presumably the reason given is that the persons's income far exceeds the medical card income threshold - this is the problem - give services to those that need them and stop refusing to give vital services to those whose income exceeds a ridicously low threshold. Everytime a discussion takes place around primary care in this country it is hijacked by the medical card issue. This system was brought in a lifetime ago and like everyting else it needs to evolve to meet the requirements of today - of course it is great for the politician - Ah Mary didn't I get you the medical card! - which is probably a good a reason as any for the lack of urgency to change it.

Sierra Oscar

creedp wrote: »

Presumably the reason given is that the persons's income far exceeds the medical card income threshold - this is the problem - give services to those that need them and stop refusing to give vital services to those whose income exceeds a ridicously low threshold.

No, the reason given was because the cards were withdrawn while a review of the patients status was being carried out. Such reviews subsequently have found that the patients should not have lost their card.

The HSE is trying to save money by withdrawing medical cards, if even only temporarily. If a medical card is withdrawn for three months in order to facilitate a "review" then the HSE is making a three month saving in the year, despite the fact that the patient who is relying on a medical card is having to get loans and the likes to cover their day to day medical expenses.

Fred Swanson

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v638sg7k1a92bx

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Also, just to point out that you are completely wrong on that. Even the HSE would disagree with you, as a top HSE official admitted on PrimeTime a number of weeks ago that people with long term and serious illnesses had lost their medical cards.

No I'm not actually. HSE has always issued discretionary cards even in cases where their income exceeds the means testing threshold. Again, where are all these cases of people who had their medical cards taken away? Very very few.

As I said earlier, but the facts haven't resonated with some of the posters so I'll say it again. In cases where someone has lost their medical card, they are issued with a GP card and the total cost of their prescriptions is capped at €144 per month.

creedp

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

No I'm not actually. HSE has always issued discretionary cards even in cases where their income exceeds the means testing threshold. Again, where are all these cases of people who had their medical cards taken away? Very very few.

As I said earlier, but the facts haven't resonated with some of the posters so I'll say it again. In cases where someone has lost their medical card, they are issued with a GP card and the total cost of their prescriptions is capped at €144 per month.

In fairness its more than that - currently it seems non-medical card holders are not entitled to access any primary care services except the DPS. They also have to pay to visit the A&E and up to €750 a year (€75 per day for each daycase/inpatient for 10 days max in a year) for public hospital services. I think its the former that's the biggest problem though. Some of the primary care services are very difficult and expensive to source privately so even though you might have a reasonable income you couldn't access necessary primary care services without the medical card.

This is the inexplicable conumdrom of the Irish public helath system - your income is too high to qualify for a medical card on the normal income grounds but then you can't access necessary services - Irish solution give you a medical card! So we have 2 ways of getting a medical card - one the legally enforceable way under the 70 Health Act - on income grounds - the other not being able to access necessary services without a medical card. In the latter case he who shouts loudest has the best change of being granted discretionary status leaving the quieter ones to survive on their own. Totally unfair system

v638sg7k1a92bx

source wrote: »

My grandmother has Alzheimer's, she's 82 her only income is the old age pension and she's had her medical card taken away.

The HSE claim she is getting a private pension from her former employer, which she isn't, we had to go through loads of red tape to prove she is only on the old age pension, and even though they've been proven wrong, they haven't reinstated the card. It's "under review" Is what we're told when we ring.

She got the initial letter last May and we still haven't gotten it reinstated. So get your facts right before you start sprouting nonsense.

No nonsense being spouted, just facts. I am now going to dismantle your nonsense with four factually correct points.

1. Very easy to prove your grandmothers income, simply request a P21 from revenue which will show if she has a private pension or not.

2. The only way that the HSE would think that she is getting a private pension is if there is a P35 being submitted by her previous employer for paye and prsi on her pension.

3. Your grandmother would also be entitled to either Illness benefit or Illness Allowance on the basis that she has a long term illness. So she has an additional source of income to the old age pension.

4. If your Grandmother did have her medical card taken away, she would be entitled to a GP card in addition to the drugs payment scheme which means that the cost of her prescriptions would be capped at €144 per month.

v638sg7k1a92bx

creedp wrote: »

In fairness its more than that - currently it seems non-medical card holders are not entitled to access any primary care services except the DPS. They also have to pay to visit the A&E and up to €750 a year (€75 per day for each daycase/inpatient for 10 days max in a year) for public hospital services. I think its the former that's the biggest problem though. Some of the primary care services are very difficult and expensive to source privately so even though you might have a reasonable income you couldn't access necessary primary care services without the medical card.

This is the inexplicable conumdrom of the Irish public helath system - your income is too high to qualify for a medical card on the normal income grounds but then you can't access necessary services - Irish solution give you a medical card! So we have 2 ways of getting a medical card - one the legally enforceable way under the 70 Health Act - on income grounds - the other not being able to access necessary services without a medical card. In the latter case he who shouts loudest has the best change of being granted discretionary status leaving the quieter ones to survive on their own. Totally unfair system

Half the population has a medical card, so who are these non medical card holders who are not getting access to "primary care services" (whatever that means). With half the population going around with a medical card, everyone who needs one (and many people who don't) already have medical cards.

This is the whole point of the thread, all of the hype about people being stripped of medical cards is nonsense. Meanwhile, the indo, Newstalk et al are rolling out these stories of somebody's cousin who knows someone else who has a Granny who didn't get her medical card because she filled in the form wrong.

creedp

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

Half the population has a medical card, so who are these non medical card holders who are not getting access to "primary care services" (whatever that means). With half the population going around with a medical card, everyone who needs one (and many people who don't) already have medical cards.

This is the whole point of the thread, all of the hype about people being stripped of medical cards is nonsense. Meanwhile, the indo, Newstalk et al are rolling out these stories of somebody's cousin who knows someone else who has a Granny who didn't get her medical card because she filled in the form wrong.

What do you mean .. that the 60% (i.e. the majority) of the population who don't have a medical card never need primary care services .. they are magically never sick?

I fully agree with you re the hype when an individual loses a card of there is a delay in a renewal. An opposition's politician dream and of course the media are only too happy to get in on the act.. have you ever seen an article about the large number of people getting cards?

Lemming

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

This may appear to be a silly question, but what exactly is meant by primary care as I've heard people refer to emergency rooms as primary care. The term is used so much that it's meaning has become ambiguous.

I've not seen anyone answer this yet, and I will add the caveat that I am applying my understanding of Primary Care taken from my working knowledge of how the NHS is structured at regional & community level. Basically primary care refers to GPs, walk-in community clinics, pharmacies, opticians, and dentists. Hospitals & clinics are termed as 'acute' care to differentiate. Hence you have entities like acute trusts in the NHS that will govern several acute facilities within an area or region, and what used to be PCTs (primary care trusts) which have recently been abolished, alongside Strategic Health Authorities - or SHAs and folded into another structure the acronynm of which escapes me


Edit: LATs (or Local Area Teams) are what PCTs were folded into; for anyone bothered to know.

jank

I have to agree with the OP, the medical card 'fiasco' is just a media **** storm. Half the population have a medical card, how the hell did that happen? It seems only now that the HSE are clamping down on the fact.

creedp

jank wrote: »

I have to agree with the OP, the medical card 'fiasco' is just a media **** storm. Half the population have a medical card, how the hell did that happen? It seems only now that the HSE are clamping down on the fact.

It happenned because everytime it is suggested someone should lose a medical card there is a media **** storm and the opposition politicians start baying so the Govt folds

Good loser

I read some years ago that 90% of the people in Donegal have medical cards. Is that true? Another scandal for Pearse to chase down!

AlekSmart

jank wrote: »

I have to agree with the OP, the medical card 'fiasco' is just a media **** storm. Half the population have a medical card, how the hell did that happen? It seems only now that the HSE are clamping down on the fact.

To which can be added the 749,000+ who also have a Free Travel Pass.....is it any wonder the Troika spent so much time in Merrion Square ?

However it appears that half the population requiring a Medical Card is about right,as a similar proportion of the "Workforce" appear to be poorly enough to merit one also ....

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

How is this vast largesse to be funded ?.....or by whom..?

jank

The middle class tax payer of course.... the media in Ireland are actually in the same bed with those claiming all these benefits from the state.

stevenmu

Jose Icy Cylinder wrote: »

No nonsense being spouted, just facts. I am now going to dismantle your nonsense with four factually correct points.

1. Very easy to prove your grandmothers income, simply request a P21 from revenue which will show if she has a private pension or not.

2. The only way that the HSE would think that she is getting a private pension is if there is a P35 being submitted by her previous employer for paye and prsi on her pension.

3. Your grandmother would also be entitled to either Illness benefit or Illness Allowance on the basis that she has a long term illness. So she has an additional source of income to the old age pension.

4. If your Grandmother did have her medical card taken away, she would be entitled to a GP card in addition to the drugs payment scheme which means that the cost of her prescriptions would be capped at €144 per month.

5. She is also probably entitled to be on the Long Term Illness scheme, which would entitle her to free medication.



There are a lot of schemes here in Ireland that cover free GP care and free medication. The "medical card" is only one such scheme and is meant for a particular set of people in a particular set of circumstances, but for years people who should be on other schemes have just been dumped into the medical card scheme. IMHO the HSE are correct to try and sort this out and get people who shouldn't have a medical card out of that scheme. But they should also be a lot more helpful with getting people into the correct schemes that they should be in.

echo beach

Good loser wrote: »

I read some years ago that 90% of the people in Donegal have medical cards. Is that true? Another scandal for Pearse to chase down!

No it isn't true. Try looking for the facts instead of believing everything you read. It isn't too hard to find the correct figure, about 55%. The eligibility rules for Donegal are exactly the same as for the rest of the country.

Good loser

echo beach wrote: »

No it isn't true. Try looking for the facts instead of believing everything you read. It isn't too hard to find the correct figure, about 55%. The eligibility rules for Donegal are exactly the same as for the rest of the country.

I was asking a question. And you haven't addressed it? If the rules are the same how come 90% in Donegal might have the medical card? As I suggested Pearse might sort it.

echo beach

Good loser wrote: »

I was asking a question. And you haven't addressed it? If the rules are the same how come 90% in Donegal might have the medical card? As I suggested Pearse might sort it.

You asked if it was true that 90% of the population of Donegal have a medical card. I answered by telling you that it wasn't true.
90% of the population in Donegal DON'T have a medical card, about 55% DO. Nobody 'sorts' it. The people who think are eligible apply to the office in Finglas and if they are eligible they get one, if they aren't they don't. Where you live doesn't make any difference.