house training not working

Mandzhalas

hi.i have 10 week old golden retriever.I am owner of him for past 3 weeks.we are letting him outside every hour,after waking up,after each meal,first thing in morning,last thing before bed and 3 o`cklock at night.he goes to crate at 11 and out of it at 6
he never asks,or shows any sign wanting to go outside.after each time he relives himself outside we praise him and give him a treat.
it was few accidents inside house during first two weeks,but i think thats absolutely normal.
Now for last few nights he started litter inside the crate,and all over the house during the day.
we go outside to do his thing,he only urinates.then when we go inside few minutes later i can see fresh steaming heap of sh....every time we treat stains with special detergent to brake the smell,so he wont be able to smell his own urine or poo.
help me please

tk123

How long are you staying outside with him?
What are you feeding him/treating him with?
When is his last meal?
Do you hear him cry at night to go out or would you be able to hear depending on where the crate is compared to your bed?

It sounds like your not staying out long enough - the first few weeks with my pup at times I was outside for 30-40mins waiting - it was summer though so ok lol! Also sounds like you may need to take him out more during the night.

Failing all else can you see a pattern in the accidents - eg it was x amount of mins time after he ate/slept/played etc - if so use this to your advantage to guess when he's due to go

Also pics of the puppy please!! My retriever pup is 6 months now

andreac

Seriously, he's ten weeks old. You need to give him a chance. He's only a baby.
It can take weeks even months to train a pup fully.
I have a 14 week old pup and he's still not trained but we are getting there slowly so please be patient with your baby as that's all he is.
He can't hold it for very long so it's not his fault.

DBB

Hi, it'll take longer than the 3 weeks to get him asking to go out... In fact, many dogs do ask to go out, it's just that their owners don't recognise the signs! Pup will get agitated, or lose focus on what he's doing, or suddenly walk away from what he's doing... All signs that the brain has interrupted what the pup was doing to tell him his bladder or bowel need emptying.
You can teach him a more active sign though: you can hang a bell out of the door and teach him to tip it with his nose or paw: every time he rings it, you open the door straight away to let him out. Or, teach him to sit at the door, and every time he sits at the door, you immediately open the door: the pup needs to learn a consistent behaviour that causes you to open the door for him.
As for the indoor pooping, what's in his crate? A bed? A blanket?
How often does he poop? And what sort of consistency is it?
The first time or two he pooped in the crate, was he locked into it at the time?
How did you react to discovering he'd pooped in his crate?
When he toilets outside, does he go on grass, or what surface?

Mandzhalas

tk123 wrote: »

How long are you staying outside with him?
What are you feeding him/treating him with?
feeding with purina puppy food,treating with cooked chicken breast
When is his last meal?
last meal at 6pm
Do you hear him cry at night to go out or would you be able to hear depending on where the crate is compared to your bed?
.no way i would hear myself,but my wife would.i swear she would hear mouse fart

It sounds like your not staying out long enough - the first few weeks with my pup at times I was outside for 30-40mins waiting - it was summer though so ok lol! Also sounds like you may need to take him out more during the night.
i would normaly stay for 15 min.he would sniff around for 5 min.and just sit for rest 10

Failing all else can you see a pattern in the accidents - eg it was x amount of mins time after he ate/slept/played etc - if so use this to your advantage to guess when he's due to go
no pattern,random accidents
Also pics of the puppy please!! My retriever pup is 6 months now

a

Mandzhalas

DBB wrote: »

Hi, it'll take longer than the 3 weeks to get him asking to go out... In fact, many dogs do ask to go out, it's just that their owners don't recognise the signs! Pup will get agitated, or lose focus on what he's doing, or suddenly walk away from what he's doing... All signs that the brain has interrupted what the pup was doing to tell him his bladder or bowel need emptying.
You can teach him a more active sign though: you can hang a bell out of the door and teach him to tip it with his nose or paw: every time he rings it, you open the door straight away to let him out. Or, teach him to sit at the door, and every time he sits at the door, you immediately open the door: the pup needs to learn a consistent behaviour that causes you to open the door for him.
As for the indoor pooping, what's in his crate? A bed? A blanket?
blanket-easier to wash
How often does he poop? And what sort of consistency is it?
he poops every 2 hours.its softer than normal
The first time or two he pooped in the crate, was he locked into it at the time?
yes
How did you react to discovering he'd pooped in his crate?
i said loudly that he is bad bad puppy.no shouting or overreacting
When he toilets outside, does he go on grass, or what surface?
grass

b

DBB

Okay op, a couple of observations.
If you don't catch him whilst the poop is literally hitting the ground, it's too late to admonish him in any way.
By admonishing a pup even seconds after the act, he cannot make the association between his pooping and your response.
To the pup, such admonishments only serve to confuse the pup as to why you seem randomly annoyed at him. This increases stress. And stress increases inappropriate toileting.
Also, his poops are softer than normal. Big alarm bells here op, if his poops are soft, he either has a tummy bug, or he has a food allergy. Both cause even an adult dog, let alone a pup, to not have their usual control over their bowels, and will cause poops to happen in places they shouldn't.
As he's so young, I'd be playing it safe and getting your vet to check him for an infection. He may seem in good form, but his bowels are not in good form!
Before pursuing any other line of enquiry, you need to get to the bottom of the soft poop... If you'll pardon the pun!

Mandzhalas

DBB wrote: »

Okay op, a couple of observations.
If you don't catch him whilst the poop is literally hitting the ground, it's too late to admonish him in any way.
By admonishing a pup even seconds after the act, he cannot make the association between his pooping and your response.
To the pup, such admonishments only serve to confuse the pup as to why you seem randomly annoyed at him. This increases stress. And stress increases inappropriate toileting.
Also, his poops are softer than normal. Big alarm bells here op, if his poops are soft, he either has a tummy bug, or he has a food allergy. Both cause even an adult dog, let alone a pup, to not have their usual control over their bowels, and will cause poops to happen in places they shouldn't.
As he's so young, I'd be playing it safe and getting your vet to check him for an infection. He may seem in good form, but his bowels are not in good form!
Before pursuing any other line of enquiry, you need to get to the bottom of the soft poop... If you'll pardon the pun!

firstly would like to thank for your replies DBB.
now in relation towards soft poop:
when i took him from breeder he was on purina beta puppy food with chicken flavour.i bought by mistake purina beta turkey flavour.also new food is larger chunks.
i have mixed food over week time and he is fully on turkey flavour for last 2 days. poo was hard when i started mixing it. am i wrong thinking that he would have soft poo since day i started mixing if thats food related?i also day 1 mix was 60-40,day 2 50-50

DBB

It can certainly take a few days for a change of diet or food intolerance to show up, or it may have been that he was just about tolerating things until the proportion of one against the other food tipped him over the edge.
I'm no fan of Beta, to be honest, there's just too much in there that can cause problems. If you can at all, try and stretch to a cereal-free food.
Alternatively, he could be harbouring a tummy bug, so keep a close eye on him as pups can go downhill very quickly.
I wonder too if you could tell us a little more about those first couple of times he pooped whilst closed into his crate... How long had he been in there when he pooped?

Mandzhalas

DBB wrote: »

It can certainly take a few days for a change of diet or food intolerance to show up, or it may have been that he was just about tolerating things until the proportion of one against the other food tipped him over the edge.
I'm no fan of Beta, to be honest, there's just too much in there that can cause problems. If you can at all, try and stretch to a cereal-free food.
Alternatively, he could be harbouring a tummy bug, so keep a close eye on him as pups can go downhill very quickly.
I wonder too if you could tell us a little more about those first couple of times he pooped whilst closed into his crate... How long had he been in there when he pooped?

it was actually a week of dry nights without being let out.thats 9 hours each night:eek: i tought its too good to be truth
then monday, last feed at 6pm,last time out before bed at 11.pees and poos.
woke up at 2am to use toilet myself,and tought will check dog.and here i see him beside poop.folowing night same

tk123

I know the thread is about house training but 6:00pm sounds a bit early for a last feed - are you feeding him 4 meals a day at regular times? If so (assuming there's no intolerance) the poos should be regular enough. You might find it easier to move the crate where you'll be able to hear the pup cry to go out - my pup gave a soft whine so I wouldn't have heard it if she was in a different room.

DBB

I've also posted here before, as have others, that you can't lock young pups into a crate overnight. I think you got away with it for a while op, but it is a very, very tall order to ask a 10 week old pup to not need to pee or poop over a 7+ hour period (overnight in your case).

This is why I don't like crates being advised as a panacea for house training.... They take a lot of dedication to use them properly, and if used incorrectly can do more harm than good. I feel that if a pup is going to be contained overnight, then they simply must be either (a) let out to the garden by their owner at least once during the night, or (b) contained in a playpen with a turf-box, not in a crate. These should be done until pup is old enough to hold on through the night.

It is paramount, simply paramount, that pup never, ever has to toilet on his bed in the crate. The owner must turn themselves inside out, if necessary, to prevent this from happening as it 100% defeats the whole purpose of the crate. I think it'd be far less harmful for a pup to have ten mistaken accidents on the kitchen floor, than one or two forced incidents in his crate.
Another thing springs to mind... If pup is locked in his crate and needs to go, the anxiety of being forced to toilet on his bed could well contribute to loose stools.

So, I'm sorry to say op, I think you'll either need to brace yourself for middle-of-the-night toilet visits to the garden, or set pup up in a less confined area with a turf-box to toilet in.
Personally, I allow pups free run of a playpen, AND get up in the middle of the night to let them pee and poop in the garden. It's a pain, but it seriously improves and shortens housetraining. The last litter of pups I had born here were fully housetrained by 10 weeks of age!


Edited to add: reading over what I said above, I must clarify something in case it's misconstrued! It is not okay for pups to be left locked in a crate for 7+ hours at a time. Nor 6+ hours. Nor 5, 4, 3, or even 2 hours for a very young pup. The only reason I'd leave a young pup locked in a crate for longer than 1-2 hours would be if he was asleep all that time!

LucyBliss

Toilet training takes time, perseverance and patience. It's one of those things that you think they're NEVER going to get but they do. I'll freely admit that the first time my dog Jack tapped the door to be let out (he was about six months and he'd never done it before because I was letting them out about ten times a day to make sure they REALLY UNDERSTOOD what was happening here) and I said to Jack "Don't be scraping that door!" Then I realised a second later what he was really asking and I leapt out of my seat to let him out.

Then it seemed like my other dog Meg would never ask to be let out because anytime I let one pup out, I brought out the other two dogs (we ended up with two pups and their mother all at once - long story) so they were all going on Jack's toilet schedule. Until the evening Meg went and sat at the door and there was much rejoicing as we went out into the garden.

They were all properly toilet trained by the age of ten months with no accidents bar one or two and they were my fault because I either missed the signals or I was busy dealing with my elderly grandmother who was living with us at the time. It happens. We cleaned it up and were more careful.

I will also say that we crate trained and I used to put the pups to bed after eleven and they wouldn't be out again until seven or eight in the morning. I admit it wasn't until I read it on these forums that I saw that people say they should be let out during the night but mine never let a peep out of them all the night. They would curl up together and sleep all night. We were very lucky and I wouldn't expect to be that lucky with a future pup. I sometimes wonder if the universe was being nice to us because we'd be up all night with my grandmother a lot of the time so they made the dogs sleep until morning so that we had one less thing to be worrying about.

taytobreath

gosh guys, i no i will get destroyed here and it may be off topic, but I have always felt that crate training dogs is cruel, all pets need freedom whether its through the night or during the day, surely people should consider this before buying a pet and locking their dog inside a cage for 8 or 9 hours a day

boomerang

No one is suggesting keeping a dog confined to a cage eight or nine hours a day.

As I type this my two dogs are curled up in their crates (with the crate doors opened) happy as clams.

Don't knock it if you've never tried it...

taytobreath

boomerang wrote: »

No one is suggesting keeping a dog confined to a cage eight or nine hours a day.

As I type this my two dogs are curled up in their crates (with the crate doors opened) happy as clams.

Don't knock it if you've never tried it...

ok, I have an opinion and that's just me, everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. My opinion is that locking dogs up in crates is not good no matter how much you justify it is right.

tk123

taytobreath wrote: »

ok, I have an opinion and that's just me, everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. My opinion is that locking dogs up in crates is not good no matter how much you justify it is right.

But it's an opinion based on no actual experience? My pup opens her crate and goes asleep - she wouldn't do it if she didn't like it. What about when a dog has an accident and needs to be restricted - is it cruel then?

DBB

Used properly, they're great! Used properly, the pup is really only in there whilst asleep, and settling down to go to sleep. They have made the difference for innumerable dogs who, with the proper application of the crate, could remain indoors rather than being turfed out to live in solitude in the garden. They also provide an effective and difference-making refuge for dogs when a baby comes into the home, again allowing owners the realistic option of keeping their dog indoors, or indeed keeping the dog at all.
But they must be introduced properly, and they must be used properly (something you could say about many items related to animal training). They should never be used as a prison, they should be used as a bedroom. If there is any risk that they won't be used properly, that puppy has to spend more than a couple of hours at a time overnight in without a pee break, or that is being used for anything other than naps and very short visits during the day (eg when pup needs to be safely contained if there are visitors calling, or workmen in, or whatever), then it is being overused and misused.
When pup is not resting, asleep, or in there for a short safety burst, then he should be out and about doing puppy stuff.
By and large, Irish people are reasonably good with the crate training. However in other countries, in particular the US, pups and dogs spend long, long hours in them whilst their owner is at work. It's seen by some as an acceptable compromise which allows them to own a dog despite not having anywhere near an acceptable lifestyle to meet a dog's needs. That's just not on.

Hooked

taytobreath wrote: »

gosh guys, i no i will get destroyed here and it may be off topic, but I have always felt that crate training dogs is cruel, all pets need freedom whether its through the night or during the day, surely people should consider this before buying a pet and locking their dog inside a cage for 8 or 9 hours a day

I, for one, am not going to have a go or destroy you on your opinion - as over 2.5 years ago I had the very same one.

I'm just here having a coffee having walked my Husky, Hugo and we're about to have breakfast. He spent 8 hours in his crate last night. And didn't make a sound. He never does. EVER! Why?

Because he's part of the family. Walked (or run) at least twice a day. I make up raw 'parcels' and have just bought a freezer - for him. I changed the car - for him. He owns sledding harnesses, back packs and I bought a bike - you guessed it - for him! He's in the house as much as we are! And he goes on holidays with us. House stays, camping and has a pet passport form ready for application in early 2014. My point?

Crate training is part of an 'overall' pet owning experience. It's not a place to lock an animal for hours on end. It a means to an end... It helps with:

Toilet training
Sleeping soundly (no external noise/distraction)
When guests call
A place to feed him (and for him to wait while WE eat)
As it's located inside the back door - a place to dry him off
For crate rest after an elective operation
For camping
For holidaying in rented houses/hotels

Crate Training all the way...

Now, back on topic. I've all my fingers and toes crossed that we'll have an addition to our Husky family in early 2014. And top of my list will be a new, small, crate to start the toilet training afresh! Like training a dog to sit, stay, roll over, etc... Toilet training takes patience and perseverance. And a pinch of advice from all the crate using animal 'lovers' here on boards.

Now, I'd better go wake herself... And try and persuade her to go to the beach. I promised Hugo we would go.

muddypaws

taytobreath wrote: »

gosh guys, i no i will get destroyed here and it may be off topic, but I have always felt that crate training dogs is cruel, all pets need freedom whether its through the night or during the day, surely people should consider this before buying a pet and locking their dog inside a cage for 8 or 9 hours a day

When you say they need freedom, can I ask what you mean? Do you mean they shouldn't be confined in a house and/or garden, and should be allowed freedom to roam? I'm not trying to pick an argument, just find out your definition of pet freedom.

kylith

taytobreath wrote: »

ok, I have an opinion and that's just me, everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. My opinion is that locking dogs up in crates is not good no matter how much you justify it is right.

I used to think the same until I had to get a couple of crates for travelling. I couldn't believe how quickly they took to them, chilling out in them and using them for privacy when chewing on Kongs.

Now that I know more about it I definitely intend to crate train any future dogs I have.

boomerang

taytobreath wrote: »

ok, I have an opinion and that's just me, everyone is entitled to their opinions right or wrong. My opinion is that locking dogs up in crates is not good no matter how much you justify it is right.

No offence meant but personally my own belief is that everyone is entitled to an informed opinion and your opinion is based on a feeling, not on experience.

taytobreath

hey guys, i want to apologise for those few posts last night, you are right, i do not have any experience with crate training dogs, i had a few drinks last night for the toy show and i get too opinionated on stuff i know nothing about.
i was about to buy a beautiful labrador puppy a while ago, it was hip scored and everything and i suggested to the owner could i crate train her and she didnt like the idea. so i backed out of the purchase. It works well for most is what im trying to say

Pretzill

taytobreath wrote: »

hey guys, i want to apologise for those few posts last night, you are right, i do not have any experience with crate training dogs, i had a few drinks last night for the toy show and i get too opinionated on stuff i know nothing about.
i was about to buy a beautiful labrador puppy a while ago, it was hip scored and everything and i suggested to the owner could i crate train her and she didnt like the idea. so i backed out of the purchase. It works well for most is what im trying to say

My opinion on crates are similar to yours tayto ( btw I'm sober) I also.would be against feeding a raw diet - That's not to say these things don't work wonderfully for other pet owners.

My dogs enjoy a bed each and a comfy chair or the knee! I'm sure there are some who would admonish me for having a 18kg 3 yr old BC paws up in the air getting a belly rub on my lap but I love the comfort of having them close and funnily they respect the furniture and never chew it!
Yeah I wouldn't be an advocate of the crate because I've never used them - I think it seems harsh to me only because my dogs have the run of the house!

boomerang

Pretzill wrote: »

My dogs enjoy a bed each and a comfy chair or the knee! I think it seems harsh to me only because my dogs have the run of the house!

So do mine! Right now Piper is crashed out on the sofa after chewing up a rawhide doughnut in his crate, which took half an hour. The big dog bed in the corner is empty because Josie is lorded out in her crate instead, beside the fire. I left the crate door open and she chose to go in there herself. She'll be asleep in my own bed later on.

Border Collies are just amazing dogs, it's like they're born having read the manual. (I had two.) But for a young pup like Piper who currently experiences the world by chewing, or a greyhound who'd never lived in a house before and didn't understand having limits (like, it's not acceptable to drag the contents of the kitchen bin into bed!) crates have been invaluable. In both cases it sped up their house training immeasurably. The crates are still helping at meal and treat times, while Piper learns that other dogs' chewies are not fair game. It also gives my greyhound valuable time out from a very busy puppy who wants to play ALL the time! (I know by her face when she wants me to close the crate door behind her, lol!)

I've had these crates ten years. When I had two exemplary collies, who never chewed or ate anything they shouldn't, the crates were just for safety in the car when travelling. Now they're in the living room. Crates are a brilliant piece of kit!

Lately my neighbour rescued a puppy. She didn't give him his own bed, and it's a small house with kids, three other dogs and kittens! I suggested the crate to help with his house training and to give him a place to go and rest when it was all getting too much for him, or he just felt like a nap or a good chew in peace. A spot in the house to call his own. She told me no way, it was cruel.

RubyGirl

I'd have to agree with crate training aswell op and especially for house training. I have 4 dog's all crate trained but only 2 use it now (space really). Mine use them during the day if I'm out and always at night two of them share a crate.

Pretzill

Boomerang I'm happy the crates work so well for you - as I said each to it's own - I also have a new pup at the mo my 5th BC (just coincidence but the breed seems to find me and yes they're brilliant but highly energetic and as pups can chew as good as the rest) My elder boy has taken to leaving the room when the pup goes through his play-with-me time - he retreats to the bedroom and pup.is too small to make the leap on to the bed!

But when it comes to rest time they all cuddle in together - and thankfully enjoy each others company.

muddypaws

Pretzill wrote: »

My opinion on crates are similar to yours tayto ( btw I'm sober) I also.would be against feeding a raw diet - That's not to say these things don't work wonderfully for other pet owners.

My dogs enjoy a bed each and a comfy chair or the knee! I'm sure there are some who would admonish me for having a 18kg 3 yr old BC paws up in the air getting a belly rub on my lap but I love the comfort of having them close and funnily they respect the furniture and never chew it!
Yeah I wouldn't be an advocate of the crate because I've never used them - I think it seems harsh to me only because my dogs have the run of the house!

But crates and sofas aren't mutually exclusive. As I look around my living room there are 2 dogs fast asleep on the armchair, 3 on the sofa, one on the big dog bed, two on the floor, one in the crate, with the door open and one on the cushion on top of the crate. I'm not sure if you have the idea that dogs that are crate trained spend all their time in the crate when they're not out on walks? In this house, they are just dog beds. One of my dogs gets incredibly excited before he eats, so much so that he has destroyed two sofas, so now he goes into the crate for the few minutes it takes me to get the food ready. I also have a foster dog that I wouldn't trust alone here with the other dogs, so when I'm out, he goes into a crate in the living room, instead of being put out in the kennel block, so that he still has the company of the other dogs, but I don't have to worry about him or the other dogs.

taytobreath

oh my god how many dogs have you in one room, there must be some smell of dog farts in there

just kidding. sorry

Pretzill

muddypaws wrote: »

But crates and sofas aren't mutually exclusive. As I look around my living room there are 2 dogs fast asleep on the armchair, 3 on the sofa, one on the big dog bed, two on the floor, one in the crate, with the door open and one on the cushion on top of the crate. I'm not sure if you have the idea that dogs that are crate trained spend all their time in the crate when they're not out on walks? In this house, they are just dog beds. One of my dogs gets incredibly excited before he eats, so much so that he has destroyed two sofas, so now he goes into the crate for the few minutes it takes me to get the food ready. I also have a foster dog that I wouldn't trust alone here with the other dogs, so when I'm out, he goes into a crate in the living room, instead of being put out in the kennel block, so that he still has the company of the other dogs, but I don't have to worry about him or the other dogs.

Please don't misunderstand me I don't think they are - and I'm sure most pet owners here use crates properly and it suits them. I have seen.crates used for putting a dog in because he jumps when greeting guests - into a crate way too small.and crates used to spare the floor from puppy doo rather than putting the work into training. I agree most pet owners use them as a safe place that dogs use happily but my dogs find those same safe places without being caged - that's all. I suppose I've just felt for dogs where the cages were used wrongly imo.

taytobreath

I agree it can get abused or over-used by lazy people. its the same thing as planting a toddler in front of a tv for a few hours to get the extra few hours in bed on a Sunday morning.