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Owner Occupied / Tenant

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  • 28-11-2013 10:18pm
    #1
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭


    Quick summary:

    If a tenant rents a room from a part owner of a property who does not live in the property but the other part owner continues to live in that property what kind of tenancy does the tenant have.

    Basically 2 people own the property, the tenant has a tenancy agreement with the owner who does not live in the property. The other owner lives in that property though.

    Hope i am clear here as I am not sure if the tenancy comes under PRTB jurisdiction or not??

    Thanks for any help/thoughts offered


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Comments

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    #2
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    If you live with an owner occupier, then you are a licensee.


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    #3
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Thanks for reply.

    But there are two owners and rent is paid to the owner who does not live there!!! No agreement with other owner.


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    #4
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Im not sure that it matters tbh; you are still living with an owner occupier.

    Maybe contact Threshold to clarify.


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    #5
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Yeah. its a strange one. PRTB are not even sure how to class the tenancy!!!


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    #6
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    corelon wrote: »
    Quick summary:

    If a tenant rents a room from a part owner of a property who does not live in the property but the other part owner continues to live in that property what kind of tenancy does the tenant have.
    The owner lives there, but your landlord doesn't. An odd one, but not one I'd like to be in myself. In saying that, when you moved in, who said that they were your landlord?

    I'm thinking that the person living in the house with you may have dropped the "part owner" line to you, to gain some sort of seniority over you when it comes to rules of the house?


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    #7
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Thats what i thought.. fair play.. but to be honest trying to open a dispute with PRTB and they are questioning what kind of tenancy I have. And if it falls under their jurisdiction.. I signed an agreement with the owner who does not live here.. I paid rent only to my landlord.. Its a bloody mess to be honest as nobody seems to know what tenancy I'm in..if any!!


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    #8
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Move out and let somebody else sort it out
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #9
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corelon wrote: »
    Thats what i thought.. fair play.. but to be honest trying to open a dispute with PRTB and they are questioning what kind of tenancy I have. And if it falls under their jurisdiction.. I signed an agreement with the owner who does not live here.. I paid rent only to my landlord.. Its a bloody mess to be honest as nobody seems to know what tenancy I'm in..if any!!

    You need to ask the owner who you signed the agreement with if the other party is the part owner or just another tenant. You should do this ASAP. Also who do you pay your rent to?


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    #10
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Problem is with the landlord, not the other owner who lives here. I want to stay here, have been here for over 2years. I received what I believe is invalid notice from my landlord. Under normal rules I would need to be in breach of the tenancy agreement i signed or landlord needed to move in for him to get me out. But now that I put a dispute in through PRTB, there is a question mark as to the validity of the actually tenancy and weather or not the notice received is valid or not...


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    #11
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corelon wrote: »
    Problem is with the landlord, not the other owner who lives here. I want to stay here, have been here for over 2years. I received what I believe is invalid notice from my landlord. Under normal rules I would need to be in breach of the tenancy agreement i signed or landlord needed to move in for him to get me out. But now that I put a dispute in through PRTB, there is a question mark as to the validity of the actually tenancy and weather or not the notice received is valid or not...
    You need to ask the owner who you signed the agreement with if the other party is the part owner or just another tenant. If the LL tells you the other person is part owner you just tell him you need proof of this, You should do this ASAP.

    Also who do you pay your rent to? the guy who does live there or the owner who doesn't live there?

    If the person who lives there is the part owner it would be very odd for you to be paying rent to the other part owner when you could hand it to the person you live with much easier.


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    #12
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Thanks for input
    I pay LL who I signed the agreement with ( who is the owner that does not live here). Never paid other owner who lives here..


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    #13
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    corelon wrote: »
    Thanks for input
    I pay LL who I signed the agreement with ( who is the owner that does not live here). Never paid other owner who lives here..

    That sounds like the current story about your co-habitant being part owner is contrived to get you out without proper notice or to get around your part 4 rights.

    When exactly were you told by the person you live with that he was part owner?


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    #14
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    In what wway as are the two owners related? Are they family/friends/married/separated?


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    #15
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    That sounds like the current story about your co-habitant being part owner is contrived to get you out without proper notice or to get around your part 4 rights.

    When exactly were you told by the person you live with that he was part owner?

    Only since the dispute started. But in saying that he is not a stupid guy and would probably know that PRTB would look for proof of this.


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    #16
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    djimi wrote: »
    In what wway as are the two owners related? Are they family/friends/married/separated?

    They are not related, I believe they were two friends who bought together during the good times...


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    #17
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    UPDATE:
    talked with Threshold again this morning and they are saying i am a licensee. I would love to read the Law where it says that if any owner lives in the dwelling the tenant is a licensee..!!! apposed to the owner I make the agreement with...


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    #18
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Its interesting that the PRTB are unable to clarify this situation. There are certain instances where you dont have to be necessarily living with the landlord to be classed as a licensee (ie if you are living with an immediate family member of the landlord). I would have thought that living with an owner occupier, even if they are not the ones collecting the rent, would be included in this also, but if the PRTB arent sure then its obviously not as clear cut.

    Im not sure that they would be of any more use, but it might be worth consulting with a solicitor and see what they reckon?


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    #19
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    djimi wrote: »
    Its interesting that the PRTB are unable to clarify this situation. There are certain instances where you dont have to be necessarily living with the landlord to be classed as a licensee (ie if you are living with an immediate family member of the landlord). I would have thought that living with an owner occupier, even if they are not the ones collecting the rent, would be included in this also, but if the PRTB arent sure then its obviously not as clear cut.

    Im not sure that they would be of any more use, but it might be worth consulting with a solicitor and see what they reckon?

    Yeah. I believe this is going to be my next step. I am trying to read the legislation regarding all this. To see if it specifically refers to a situation similar to this or not


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    #20
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Whats the actual issue you are having anyway? You have been asked to leave, is it? On what grounds has notice been served? Do you have a fixed term lease with the landlord?


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    #21
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,955 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Life's too short! Move on, and find a place to live where you're not in dispute with anyone.

    Seriously. This may not be the legal answer, but it's surely a more pragmatic one that will lead to more happiness for everyone overall.


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    #22
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    corelon wrote: »
    UPDATE:
    talked with Threshold again this morning and they are saying i am a licensee. I would love to read the Law where it says that if any owner lives in the dwelling the tenant is a licensee..!!! apposed to the owner I make the agreement with...

    Joint owners are seen as one entity, they are both liable for the mortgage repayments so if either or both decide not to pay both can be chased for the cash. If one dies the other gets full legal ownership.
    Your living with an owner of the property in question, therefore you are a licencee.


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    #23
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Life's too short! Move on, and find a place to live where you're not in dispute with anyone.

    Seriously. This may not be the legal answer, but it's surely a more pragmatic one that will lead to more happiness for everyone overall.

    Depends on the situation. Four week until Christmas; I know Id be trying to prolong moving until the new year at least if it were me.


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    #24
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Joint owners are seen as one entity, they are both liable for the mortgage repayments so if either or both decide not to pay both can be chased for the cash. If one dies the other gets full legal ownership.
    Your living with an owner of the property in question, therefore you are a licencee.

    This is pretty much what Im basing my thinking on also. However its interesting that the PRTB werent sure about it.


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    #25
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    djimi wrote: »
    This is pretty much what Im basing my thinking on also. However its interesting that the PRTB werent sure about it.

    Probably because the PRTB haven't read up on the torture that is Irish property law. I'd say most of the research is based on the RTA.


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    #26
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Life's too short! Move on, and find a place to live where you're not in dispute with anyone.

    Seriously. This may not be the legal answer, but it's surely a more pragmatic one that will lead to more happiness for everyone overall.

    I am not sure if you realise that if my tenancy is not covered by PRTB, I can be turfed out with minimum notice i.e. a weeks notice or less. we are now 3/4 weeks before xmas.. This is not an option for me to find alternative accommodation this side of xmas + I have been a very good tenant for nearly 3 years and I believe I should have legal rights..


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    #27
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Probably because the PRTB haven't read up on the torture that is Irish property law. I'd say most of the research is based on the RTA.

    I would have thought that its something that they would have come across before though. It cant be the first time that two people have bought a house only for one person to move out and rent their share.


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    #28
    corelon
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭corelon


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Joint owners are seen as one entity, they are both liable for the mortgage repayments so if either or both decide not to pay both can be chased for the cash. If one dies the other gets full legal ownership.
    Your living with an owner of the property in question, therefore you are a licencee.

    Thanks for feedback. I see your angle but my argument would be I have a tenancy agreement with LL who does not live here I always paid to LL who does not live here and also he registered the tenancy with the PRTB. They are not related also..


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    #29
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    djimi wrote: »
    I would have thought that its something that they would have come across before though. It cant be the first time that two people have bought a house only for one person to move out and rent their share.

    Usually if one deserts it's the remaining owner trying to cover their side of the rent. This set up seems rather awkward.


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    #30
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Usually if one deserts it's the remaining owner trying to cover their side of the rent. This set up seems rather awkward.

    True. For legal clarity it would have been easier for the remaining owner to collect the rent; at least that way there is no confusion.


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    #31
    The_Morrigan
    Registered Users Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    corelon wrote: »
    Thanks for feedback. I see your angle but my argument would be I have a tenancy agreement with LL who does not live here I always paid to LL who does not live here and also he registered the tenancy with the PRTB. They are not related also..

    It's not an angle, it is the legal principle behind joint owners.
    They don't have to be related to be joint owners.

    The tenancy being registered with the PRTB seems odd. You are not leasing the whole house so all occupants should be registered and you can't register an owner as a tenant.


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