Thieving Tenant

Big Davey

I have a good solicitor who also specialises in debt collection and advised similar there is also a few other options open to me as there is only one name on the lease etcI am hopeful to get most or all the money owed to me so will keep everyone updated next year.

infosys wrote: »

It takes a number of months for a determination to issue, then there is an appeal, at the last appeal I was at I was told by the appeal board, that they would make a decision but it would be at least 3 months to be notified that was over 2 months ago. The landlord in that case issued proceedings in excess of a year ago now. If both landlord and Tenant are fighting it takes in excess of 12 months to get a determination. Then and only then can the landlord go to the courts to enforce the order.

I also know for a fact that PRTB have taken in excess of 12 months to register a tenancy, in many cases the tenancy has ended before its even registered.

In the following example from getting PRTB order landlord himself had tennant evicted in 4 months, PRTB who tried to do the same in excess of 10 months and no joy.

"We recently came across a case in which it took the PRTB over ten months from the date of the Order being made by the PRTB to obtain a Circuit Court Order enforcing the Determination Order, all the while the tenant remained in illegal occupation of the landlord’s property. This ten month period does not take into account the actual enforcement of the Circuit Court Order, for example through the Sheriff, and even six months after obtaining the Circuit Court Order there was little progress as regards execution of the Circuit Court Order through the Sheriff.

In comparison we came across a case where the landlord initiated her own civil proceedings, independently of the PRTB, and it took only two months from the receipt of the PRTB Determination Order to obtain a Circuit Court Order enforcing the PRTB Order. The landlord then obtained an Execution Order directed to the Sheriff in less than one month of the Circuit Court Order being made and recovered possession of their property within another month. The landlord successfully recovered possession in less than four months from the date of receipt of the PRTB Determination Order. In this case the landlord took the case herself and had to pay a solicitor and a barrister.

The message is that if you want quick enforcement (for example if your tenant is overholding) and you can afford to do it, then you should instruct your own solicitor to take enforcement proceedings."

http://www.propertyrock.ie/news-and-advice/court-ordered-enforcement-of-prtb-orders-by-the-prtb/

That does not take into account the time to get PRTB determination.

https://www.housing.ie/Our-Publications/Private-Rented-Sector/PRTB_Analysis-of-Determination-Orders-and-Disputes.aspx

Page 27.

djimi

Big Davey wrote: »

On a separate note if a tenant gives "almost" a months notice and thenmoves out "mid" the next month would it ever be considered to give a part of the months rent back or one it is into the next month is the full month owed ? The rent is charged monthly.

You can keep rent to cover the notice, no more. If you have accepted notice of less than a month and they have paid a months rent then you should technically be returning the remainder.

Pro Hoc Vice

Big Davey wrote: »

It's not a personal criminal matter it's a suspected fraud against the state of Ireland. A TD is my representative to the government in this matter as I am a tax payer and that's what they are there for to listen to me if they are not interested they are not doing their job. Just remember all I want is the money owed to me and yes sometimes if you are enough of a pain and press the right buttons things just go away that's the country we live in.

The politician's have set up an investigative body which is paid for by tax revenue to investigate fraud. As a tax payer my taxes also pay a doctor but I would not go to him with a complaint about my local traffic lights.

It is a TD's job to legislate, to run the country not to personally investigate suspected fraud. If a person is unhappy with AGS or Ombudsman in their dealings then by all means to to TD, but to go to TD about this issue is plain silly. If you have proof of a fraud then by all means go to AGS who should investigate it fully.

If as you say "all I want is the money owed to me and yes sometimes if you are enough of a pain and press the right buttons things just go away that's the country we live in," sums up much of what's wrong in our political system.

Big Davey

djimi wrote: »

You can keep rent to cover the notice, no more. If you have accepted notice of less than a month and they have paid a months rent then you should technically be returning the remainder.

Ok so I have accepted the notice of less than a month just happy to get them out ! So "if" they were to pay all of January I would have to return the remainder of the rent say 10 days if they moved out on the 21st ?

djimi

Big Davey wrote: »

Ok so I have accepted the notice of less than a month just happy to get them out ! So "if" they were to pay all of January I would have to return the remainder of the rent say 10 days if they moved out on the 21st ?

Yes. The tenancy has ended; its not your money to keep.

Big Davey

djimi wrote: »

Yes. The tenancy has ended; its not your money to keep.

Ok thanks

Big Davey

You are probably right in all you have said "BUT" I spoke to this particular ministers Office and was informed their office would be very happy to meet with me and would personally look into my issues in total confidentiality so for me that door is fully open in the new year if I need it.

Cheshire Cat

djimi wrote: »

Yes. The tenancy has ended; its not your money to keep.

I would disagree. OP said that they are 3k in arrears, if they really pay for the last month any "overpay" should go towards the substantial arrears.

djimi

Cheshire Cat wrote: »

I would disagree. OP said that they are 3k in arrears, if they really pay for the last month any "overpay" should go towards the substantial arrears.

Im talking in general. Obviously if there are arrears then the extra cash would be taken from the money owed.

Big Davey

UPDATE
Got Tenant out. The house is in very bad shape a lot of damage done approx 3k there are a few toys and an old tv left also.
There is a lot of rubbish and junk in the house. The back garden has domestic waste, broken glass, broken toys etc etc there are some toys and a barbecue, bench, etc that may be usable
The Tenant has informed me that he will drop back and collect the stuff that he wants when he gets a chance.
This situation is now holding up my decorating and preparation of the house for the next Tenant.
LEGALLY can I remove their stuff ? Can I take it away and dump it ?
There is a future PRTB case coming up when they get around to it.
Thanks

djimi

To cover your back, Id say write the tenant, arrange a time for them to collect their stuff and inform them that if it is not collected by x deadline then it will be disposed of. Cant say fairer than that.

Big Davey

djimi wrote: »

To cover your back, Id say write the tenant, arrange a time for them to collect their stuff and inform them that if it is not collected by x deadline then it will be disposed of. Cant say fairer than that.

I have no forwarding address they have done a runner maybe in an attempt to try to avoid PRTB ? It seems a bit unfair to allow him to come back a pick what he wants out of the junk and then I have to pay for a skip and pay a person to load it with his junk on top of the 4k arrears and 3k damage?
I have a mobile number that he answers when he feels like it nothing more.

Borderfox

Bin it, had the same thing with a guy in my place. Left a load of stuff that I had to store and came back 8 months later looking for it. Told him the cost of storage and he left it.

Well done on getting them out

djimi

Big Davey wrote: »

I have no forwarding address they have done a runner maybe in an attempt to try to avoid PRTB ? It seems a bit unfair to allow him to come back a pick what he wants out of the junk and then I have to pay for a skip and pay a person to load it with his junk on top of the 4k arrears and 3k damage?
I have a mobile number that he answers when he feels like it nothing more.

Text the mobile then if thats all that you have.

My thinking is that if this is likely to go before the PRTB then you want to cover your ass and be able to show that at all times you acted as fairly as you possibly could. Its up to you what to do, but if it were me I wouldnt want them turning around to the PRTB and saying that you binned a grands worth of their stuff without giving them the chance to collect it.

beauf

Tell them it will be in storage and the cost per day.

djimi

beauf wrote: »

Tell them it will be in storage and the cost per day.

Why antagonize these guys more than they have to? The OP has done well to get them out of the property in a timely fashion; Id just set them a deadline to collect the stuff and be done with it. No sense making more trouble than you need to.

beauf

Because they won't collect it. They drag it out for months. Then not collect it. If you destroy it the PRTB may ask the LL to replace the stuff. At some fictional value.

djimi

beauf wrote: »

Because they won't collect it. They drag it out for months. Then not collect it. If you destroy it the PRTB may ask the LL to replace the stuff. At some fictional value.

And you think threatening to charge them money when they already owe €7k is realistic?

There is no dragging out. One text message to say that if the stuff is not collected by Wed 22nd at 8pm then it will be disposed of (just to cover your ass) and on Thursday a trip to the dump. End of story.

Pawwed Rig

beauf wrote: »

Because they won't collect it. They drag it out for months. Then not collect it. If you destroy it the PRTB may ask the LL to replace the stuff. At some fictional value.

At worst they will offset the damage against the cost of the goods. If the tenant is unlikely to pay the damage anyway then there should realistically be nos loss for the OP. That said djimi is right in that you just want this guy gone asap.
OP make sure you photograph and document every little bit of damage. Keep receipts for everything. You can move all of the stuff into one room and clean up your property in the meantime.

A clown like this will not go near the PRTB anyway but you should lodge the complaint as soon as you can.

beauf

The point is not to recover money. The point is to get the client to say they don't want their stuff.

There was a case before where a tenant left a flat, LL couldn't get in contact with them, for a long period, so cleaned out the place, dumped the stuff as it was just junk. The tenant re-appeared months later, claimed for his stuff (inflated the value of it) and the PRTB fixed an amount that the stuff was worth, without receipts or anything.

At a minimum I photograph everything including the stuff before you do anything with it.

I wouldn't assume logic (or fairness) will apply. Cover yourself. Painful to get a judgement against the tenant only for them to a similar amount for the LL for dumping their belongings.

spaceHopper

Order a skip for monday, text the guy saying skip will be filled then and will be collected on wednesday he has till then to get his stuff out of the house, garden or skip. Hope you changed the locks.

Big Davey

spaceHopper wrote: »

Order a skip for monday, text the guy saying skip will be filled then and will be collected on wednesday he has till then to get his stuff out of the house, garden or skip. Hope you changed the locks.

Yes changed the locks they have informed me by text to dump everything also so things are getting there.

Big Davey

A few updates tenants are gone since mid February, took nearly six weeks to get house repaired and re let as it was trashed.
PRTB case has already taken place and went very well in my opinion will have the result hopefully this month.
I am due almost 3k in rent arrears and approx 4k-5k is what I am hoping to get in damage.
The whole thing appears to be a scam on the part of the former tenant on the day he was to move out he left the keys under the Matt text me and presented himself to the homeless section of the local county council and demanded that they house him and his family :-)
Social welfare have posted me out an "exceptional needs payment" on behalf of the tenants for the "rent allowance" I was due that he spent.I have no idea if he has paid them back or not will keep you all updated. Thanks to all for the advice and support.

murphaph

Big Davey wrote: »

A few updates tenants are gone since mid February, took nearly six weeks to get house repaired and re let as it was trashed.
PRTB case has already taken place and went very well in my opinion will have the result hopefully this month.
I am due almost 3k in rent arrears and approx 4k-5k is what I am hoping to get in damage.
The whole thing appears to be a scam on the part of the former tenant on the day he was to move out he left the keys under the Matt text me and presented himself to the homeless section of the local county council and demanded that they house him and his family :-)
Social welfare have posted me out an "exceptional needs payment" on behalf of the tenants for the "rent allowance" I was due that he spent.I have no idea if he has paid them back or not will keep you all updated. Thanks to all for the advice and support.

Such a horribly broken system. Rent supplement should be abolished in its current form and paid direct to LLs in all instances. The tenant's contribution should be deducted from whatever social welfare payment they are in receipt of and also paid directly to LL, bypassing the tenant. Simple steps would see a huge reduction in the amount of taxpayers' money being stolen and spend on Ladbrookes/Drink/Drugs etc. etc.

What has Minister Burton done to address this stolen money I wonder?!

And we have people starting threads here today asking why LLs refuse rent supplement tenants and then have the cheek to hint at tax evasion

Big Davey

murphaph wrote: »

Such a horribly broken system. Rent supplement should be abolished in its current form and paid direct to LLs in all instances. The tenant's contribution should be deducted from whatever social welfare payment they are in receipt of and also paid directly to LL, bypassing the tenant. Simple steps would see a huge reduction in the amount of taxpayers' money being stolen and spend on Ladbrookes/Drink/Drugs etc. etc.

What has Minister Burton done to address this stolen money I wonder?!

And we have people starting threads here today asking why LLs refuse rent supplement tenants and then have the cheek to hint at tax evasion

Mrs Burton is on the back boiler at the moment :-) although the more I learn the more I learn how unfair the system is anyway and nobody seems to care. I am hopeful of a fair judgement from PRTB and then we will see how good they are at enforcing it ? I am expecting the former tenant to appeal no matter what the decision is as he loves to waste tax payers money and it might buy him a bit of time.
I have not been on here in a while but have been chatting to people here and there and it's amazing how many people are going to debt collectors to try to recoup money ( both the legal and illegal kind) I suppose it's a sign of the times as it definitely works.

athtrasna

The Taoiseach announced two weeks ago that the Rent Allowance system is being changed this summer. We'll wait and see.

Pawwed Rig

Big Davey wrote: »

I am hopeful of a fair judgement from PRTB and then we will see how good they are at enforcing it ? I am expecting the former tenant to appeal no matter what the decision is as he loves to waste tax payers money and it might buy him a bit of time.

The PRTB cannot enforce anything. They will rule but for enforcement you still need to go through the courts. These cases take years.

Santa Cruz

Big Davey wrote: »

Forgot to mention this Tenant told me he had a "relation" working in the "dole" and gave a big smile and a wink ! is there any way I could find out the names of the people working in his social welfare office and try and match up the surname and maybe find his relation or is there any internal Social Welfare procedure that I could relay my suspicions to ?

Maybe if you had acted as a proper landlord should early in this tenancy you wouldn't need to be going around trying to get Social Welfare and the Tax man to do your work.

beauf

To what do you refer to?

Calhoun

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Maybe if you had acted as a proper landlord should early in this tenancy you wouldn't need to be going around trying to get Social Welfare and the Tax man to do your work.

I don't get how the OP being a poor/proper landlord and a tenant not paying rent but also destroying a property are related. I dont see how 4-5K worth of damage to someones property is excuseable.