What so English school books say about Ireland?

Fratton Fred

Grandeeod wrote: »

I studied history throughout my 5 years of secondary school. (1984- 1989) From memory. Norman invasion. War of the Roses.Henry the 7th/ Henry the 8th/Tudor period. Civil War/Cromwell. Industrial revolution. Then it morphed into the relationship with Ireland. Both World Wars were covered from a British perspective.

The syllabus has changed over the years so I don't know how much of this has been removed and replaced with a more contemporary history.

That's pretty similar to my studies, we did the Roman period as well, although that may have been a local thing due to the largest existing Roman fort outside of Italy being literally down the road.

20th century was mainly causes and effects of WWI up to the invasion of Poland.

Frank Lee Midere

tac foley wrote: »

How many of YOU know that Sweden once included Norway AND Denmark AND Poland?

How many of you know about the Thirty-year War?

Or anything about the history of the Baltic States between 1000 and 1700AD?

I know very little, I must admit, and yet they were, in their time, epoch-changing events for those regions that have echoes down to our own time.

tac

Presumably the Swedes know all this stuff. I am afraid its not good enough to excuse the English education system because Ireland is somewhere else, as it hasn't always been a separate legal entity. To not teach the Union, or Cromwell is dire cherry picking.

gobnaitolunacy

TheHighest92 wrote: »

I first heard of Cu Chulainn when I was 19 when I did my own research, it's a shame given the fact that he was an ulster myth and we weren't even taught about him

OT and not history per se, all we got of the whole shebang was a small section in an easy-reader in primary school....Setanta becomes Cu Chulainn by hitting a dog in the gob with a sliotar. Unfortunate that so-called well known legends are not that well known, now that storytelling is a dying art, unless you self-teach or take it up in third level.

who the fug

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

. To not teach the Union, or Cromwell is dire cherry picking.

Or side shows , in the context of English history

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Presumably the Swedes know all this stuff. I am afraid its not good enough to excuse the English education system because Ireland is somewhere else, as it hasn't always been a separate legal entity. To not teach the Union, or Cromwell is dire cherry picking.

Cherry picking?

Of the topics listed already, which would.you drop?

johnny_doyle

Cromwell is touched upon in the English Civil War; his antics in Ireland never got a mention as far as I can remember.

No mention of the Bruce's trip to Ireland either.

Just looking at the 14th Century Treason Act used to charge Roger Casement (part of a discussion on another forum). Leading into all sorts of history topics/people that I don't remember from school.

Frank Lee Midere

who the fug wrote: »

Or side shows , in the context of English history

If you think the Act Of Union and the (religious) Civil war are side shows for English history, you shouldn't be posting in a history forum.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how much English history is covered in Irish schools? Civil war,Norman invasion, the reformation?

All of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the average Irish student knows more after his leaving than the average Brit after his A levels. But then the a levels have 3 subjects, so history would be excluded for most.

riffmongous

tac foley wrote: »

How many of YOU know that Sweden once included Norway AND Denmark AND Poland?

How many of you know about the Thirty-year War?

Or anything about the history of the Baltic States between 1000 and 1700AD?

I know very little, I must admit, and yet they were, in their time, epoch-changing events for those regions that have echoes down to our own time.

tac

I can thankfully say I know a good bit about them, but only from my own interest in european history. Everyone interested in military history should read about Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII. It was from reading Hamlet in english class in school that actually introduced me to that part of history.

The thing is though, that I do seem to remember learning in history class a bit about scandanavian culture at the time period when we were affected by them, namely the vikings.. but that could always just be down to everybody loving to learn about them.

who the fug

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

If you think the Act Of Union and the (religious) Civil war are side shows for English history, you shouldn't be posting in a history forum.

We are talking in the context of English history 1801 there was a squabble with France the act of Union was done by Pitt to cover Englands flank .

Big deal for us, but just a bit of housekeeping in London

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

All of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the average Irish student knows more after his leaving than the average Brit after his A levels. But then the a levels have 3 subjects, so history would be excluded for most.

And yet people still refer to eeverything east of Howth as England.

who the fug

who the fug wrote: »

Did we , all I remember was Ireland 1850 to 1923 and Europe 1860 to 1939, that was the eighties

Very similar to me and mine was 1999-2005! Although Ireland 1850-1923 is basically our struggle for Independence against Britain through home rule initially under Parnell to 1916 etc but it doesn't really touch on what was happening in the UK itself at all really..However I seem to remember a good bit about the reformation in the Junior Cert which also touched on Cromwell too if I'm not mistaken.

Primary school had all the basic World and European events from what I remember.

Our own system doesn't talk about England's internal history in great detail either to be fair. It rightfully focused on other bigger events that has shaped this country. I feel that's the UK's approach too, they teach the periods in time which were significant to the formation of their current state. In those terms Ireland is quite small considering all that's happened in the last 2000 years.

HansHolzel

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And yet people still refer to everything east of Howth as England.

Try east of the Dart line ;-)

who the fug

I think the following was the cover for one of the history books for the inter

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

. I feel that's the UK's approach too, they teach the periods in time which were significant to the formation of their current state. In those terms Ireland is quite small considering all that's happened in the last 2000 years.

That's about it really.

The English civil war for example, was one of, if not the most important historical event in England from a constitutional perspective. What Cromwell did in Ireland wasn't.

tac foley

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's about it really.

The English civil war for example, was one of, if not the most important historical event in England from a constitutional perspective. What Cromwell did in Ireland wasn't.

In a similar vein, there is absolutely NO mention whatosever of the on/off three-hundred year struggle for Wales [assisted remotely by France] to regain any part of its independence that it had pre-Norman conquest - ignoring the incursions of the raiders from Europe that gave the island of Anglesey its name in English. Anglesey, was also Irish for a time :eek: -

Read - Following the Roman departure from Britain in the early 5th century, pirates from Ireland colonised Anglesey and the nearby Llŷn Peninsula. In response to this, Cunedda ap Edern, a Gododdin warlord from Scotland, came to the area and began the process of driving the Irish out. This process was continued by his son Einion Yrth ap Cunedda and grandson Cadwallon Lawhir ap Einion, the last Irish invaders finally being defeated in battle in 470. As an island, Anglesey was in a good defensive position and, because of this, Aberffraw became the site of the court, or Llys, of the Kingdom of Gwynedd. Apart from a devastating Danish raid in 853 it was to remain the capital until the 13th century, when improvements to the English navy made the location indefensible.
After the Irish, the island was invaded by Vikings, some of these raids being noted in famous sagas (see Menai Strait History), as well as Saxons, and Normans, before falling to Edward I of England in the 13th century.

Just for a laff, read the story of Owain Llawgoch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owain_Lawgoch

and his shenanigins in Switzerland et al.

Who has ever heard of him - the rightful ruler of Wales?

tac

Fratton Fred

No mention of those dastardly Scoti invading Caledonia either.

who the fug

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No mention of those dastardly Scoti invading Caledonia either.

The very first false flag operation

TheHighest92

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

OT and not history per se, all we got of the whole shebang was a small section in an easy-reader in primary school....Setanta becomes Cu Chulainn by hitting a dog in the gob with a sliotar. Unfortunate that so-called well known legends are not that well known, now that storytelling is a dying art, unless you self-teach or take it up in third level.

the same applies for history (apart from war of independence and troubles)
I never heard about Brian Boru or Hugh O'Neill until i left school yet we learned all about the egyptians

Fratton Fred

HansHolzel wrote: »

Try east of the Dart line ;-)

Them that would make me....

Oh yeah!

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And yet people still refer to eeverything east of Howth as England.

Everything, even Denmark?

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's about it really.

The English civil war for example, was one of, if not the most important historical event in England from a constitutional perspective. What Cromwell did in Ireland wasn't.

That's a bit like the Germans being interested in Hitlers constitutional reforms and not the rest. Which to them, had they won, might have been more important.

Cromwell died a dictator, as it happened. So the constitutional reforms were a dictatorship. It's the "glorious revolution" which supposedly finally curbed the powers of the Kings. Although it curbed a liberal king to empower a illiberal parliament.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No mention of those dastardly Scoti invading Caledonia either.

The merger of the smallish "Irish" speaking group of Dal Riatha with the Picts and the subsequent creation of Alba. That should be taught for sure.

Frank Lee Midere

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Very similar to me and mine was 1999-2005! Although Ireland 1850-1923 is basically our struggle for Independence against Britain through home rule initially under Parnell to 1916 etc but it doesn't really touch on what was happening in the UK itself at all really..However I seem to remember a good bit about the reformation in the Junior Cert which also touched on Cromwell too if I'm not mistaken.

Primary school had all the basic World and European events from what I remember.

Our own system doesn't talk about England's internal history in great detail either to be fair. It rightfully focused on other bigger events that has shaped this country. I feel that's the UK's approach too, they teach the periods in time which were significant to the formation of their current state. In those terms Ireland is quite small considering all that's happened in the last 2000 years.

Still not getting that. British children should be taught about britain and the UK. Where they live. Ireland was part of the union and a significant population of that union ( and the previous kingdom also controlled from London). The king of England was king of Ireland prior to the union and the United Kingdom.

Ozymandiaz

The history of England's/Britain's involvement in Ireland is too close for comfort for our neighbours to contemplate. It at once exposes and discredits everything that an Englishman traditionally likes to think he stands for: enlightenment, culture, fair play, civility, and the rights of individuals.

PS - Of course, that is a generalisation. But that does not make it untrue.

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

That's a bit like the Germans being interested in Hitlers constitutional reforms and not the rest. Which to them, had they won, might have been more important.

Cromwell died a dictator, as it happened. So the constitutional reforms were a dictatorship. It's the "glorious revolution" which supposedly finally curbed the powers of the Kings. Although it curbed a liberal king to empower a illiberal parliament.

No it's not, not even in the slightest.

Well done for godwinning the thread though.

tac foley

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

The history of England's/Britain's involvement in Ireland is too close for comfort for our neighbours to contemplate. It at once exposes and discredits everything that an Englishman traditionally likes to think he stands for: enlightenment, culture, fair play, civility, and the rights of individuals.

PS - Of course, that is a generalisation. But that does not make it untrue.

On the very rare occasions when I've had ANY kind of conversation with my 'English' friends about Ireland, the look I get is usually one of complete bafflement. Most have heard something about the Easter Rising, most have seen 'Michael Collins', but asking them about the hows and whys reveals a total ignorance and a so-what response. One pal told me that Ireland ended up getting what it wanted after WW1 and since then has been a source of just about SFA.

Black and tans? Yup, heard of them.

Michael Collins? Yup, saw the movie.

DeValera? Who?

The Truce? What Truce?

Irish war of Independence? Huh?

Irish Civil War? ?

Parnell?

I think you get the picture by now.

Ireland is so much a part, even now, of the culture over here that when a prospective club member asked if foreigners were allowed to join the club, the club secretary told him, you're not a foreigner, you're Irish. But I'm from the Republic of Ireland, he replied. So why do you think that you are a foreigner? was the answer to that. Seems that most folks haven't yet twigged that the RoI is now, in all reality, a foreign country, just like South Korea, Italy, or Sweden.

Does anyone here on the mainland really care?

Not a hoot.

Let's face it, Irish history is pretty much documented -rightly or wrongly - by those who ruled it from the middle ages up to now. Before that there is so much myth and legend tied in to the so-called history that it's a little like reading one of those endless blood-soaked sagas like 'Game of Thrones'.

tac

Fratton Fred

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

The history of England's/Britain's involvement in Ireland is too close for comfort for our neighbours to contemplate. It at once exposes and discredits everything that an Englishman traditionally likes to think he stands for: enlightenment, culture, fair play, civility, and the rights of individuals.

PS - Of course, that is a generalisation. But that does not make it untrue.

Plus, of course, the bull**** taught about Irish history in English schools would be contradictory to the bull**** taught in Irish schools.

Have Irish schools.started covering the civil war yet?

who the fug

tac foley wrote: »

Black and tans? drink

Michael Collins? Yup, saw the movie.

DeValera? Devil Valera if they are of an older generation?

The Truce? What Truce?

Irish war of Independence? Huh?

Irish Civil War? ?

Parnell? Trevor Eve


tac

my 2 cents on your poll

who the fug

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Have Irish schools.started covering the civil war yet?

Don't mention Saipan