Dog killed and mutilated in its own garden by a pack of hunting dogs

Macy0161

mosi wrote: »

The Brays do use public roads at times. They have ridden past my parents' house on a few occasions. My family know the days that they may possibly expect a hunt, although it is not very often.

I think part of the families point is that they weren't informed, and even their website didn't have a location listed apparently. Part of the solution is for all hunts to post up the routes, or potential routes of the hunts around the area - for drag hunts in particular this should be straight forward.

I'm not really one to go OTT, but as other's have mentioned it could've been a young child or children playing in what is a private garden, and apparently the pack were completely out of control. And what if children (or even adults for that matter) were in the garden when the hunts men and women left their horses loose in the garden to try and control the dogs? Pretty easy to have a spooked horse in a panicked situation, and a kick from a hunter might not be inconsequential. It's a mess from start to finish.

And those saying that domestic dogs do attack. Yes they do – what’s the usual consequence for the dog(s) if they can't be controlled? And will that be the same for the pack?

We have a hunt that goes in the vicinity of our house a few times a season. I have to say I haven’t had a problem up to now – I always assumed the dogs were under control.. However, in light of this, I’d like to be informed when they will be in the area so I can at least be more aware and take precautions if I feel it necessary.

wexie

gozunda wrote: »

Don't believe that it happens? Take a look at news reports of some significant and horrendous attack stories involving domestic dogs in the last couple of years. These exclude stories that don't make it public where a domestic pet bites or otherwise attacks family members. It is deeply saddening but It happens. Dogs are by instinct predators and will attack sometimes even when not provoked. Btw are you suggesting the attacks you appear to deny only happen when an animal is 'provoked'?

Such incidences are certainly more 'regular' in my opinion than the incidence referred to in this thread.

As I have already said the reported incident concerns an attack by domestic animals on another domestic animal. I am sure the structures are in place to deal with this without huge nashing of teeth and mud slinging,

You don't really think that a single dog attacking (regardless of whether on not it was provoked) on it's own territory is comparable to an out of control pack of hunting dogs attacking someone's pet in their own back yard do you?

borderlinemeath

gozunda wrote: »

Don't believe that it happens? Take a look at news reports of some significant and horrendous attack stories involving domestic dogs in the last couple of years. These exclude stories that don't make it public where a domestic pet bites or otherwise attacks family members. It is deeply saddening but It happens. Dogs are by instinct predators and will attack sometimes even when not provoked. Btw are you suggesting the attacks you appear to deny only happen when an animal is 'provoked'?

There is ALWAYS something to provoke an attack. ALWAYS. The very, very odd exception would be where the attacking dog has a neurological disorder (the last one I heard of was an Irish setter who's unexplainable attacks were caused by a brain tumour)

Dogs will go on the defensive and get into skirmishes with other dogs and animals because they aren't correctly socialized. The reaction is primarily rooted in fear, not in an 'instinct predator' way that you suggest. Dogs are not wolves, there's about 15,000 years of domestication between them. There are some breeds that still have an innate prey drive towards some animals but to suggest that all dogs are 'instinct predators' is way off.

A dog will attack a human, be it an adult or a child out of fear or frustration. Fear because it is either in pain, or has been frightened into submission by an adult using negative and forceful punishment, or by a child doing something as simple as pulling it's ear. Frustration can be as simple as not getting enough regular exercise, for breeds such as the collie who need huge amounts of mental and physical stimulation, this is cited as the main reasons why they can bite/nip or eventually attack.

Such incidences are certainly more 'regular' in my opinion than the incidence referred to in this thread.

As I have already said the reported incident concerns an attack by domestic animals on another domestic animal. I am sure the structures are in place to deal with this without huge nashing of teeth and mud slinging,

The difference here is that this was an organised event, (albeit with not enough public notice, and perhaps a questionable permit) with dogs that are meant to be specifically trained for a hunt. This pack were clearly out of control, they attacked one of their own species in their frenzy and the huntsmen seemed unable to control them even after dismounting. The majority of incidents that you try to allude to are not part of an organised 'event'. It's one that could have been easily prevented, with adequate notice, communication and training and control of the dog pack.

ShaShaBear

gozunda wrote: »

Don't believe that it happens? Take a look at news reports of some significant and horrendous attack stories involving domestic dogs in the last couple of years. These exclude stories that don't make it public where a domestic pet bites or otherwise attacks family members. It is deeply saddening but It happens. Dogs are by instinct predators and will attack sometimes even when not provoked. Btw are you suggesting the attacks you appear to deny only happen when an animal is 'provoked'?

Such incidences are certainly more 'regular' in my opinion than the incidence referred to in this thread.

As I have already said the reported incident concerns an attack by domestic animals on another domestic animal. I am sure the structures are in place to deal with this without huge nashing of teeth and mud slinging,

More regular in your opinion. Not in fact. I did not once deny that dogs attack children. But certainly it is not a regular occurrence, and definitely not with regards to the news. I believe there has only been two in news in the past several years for Ireland and England. But yes, I do believe, as many trained professionals on here will tell you, that dogs rarely if ever attack a child (or any human) when unprovoked.

Merry Prankster

DBB wrote: »

There are some sports, and some activities (I won't class hunting as a sport), which seem to attract a disproportionate amount of rude, obnoxious people. In my experience, having worked in the horse industry for years, hunting is very much one of them: some are fine, many are not. That's got nothing to do with what social class the participants do or don't belong to. An idiot is an idiot.

It's hardly surprising that many of those who enjoy killing wild animals for fun turn out to be <snip>, is it? To derive pleasure from such an activity requires a certain level of callousness and disregard for suffering - not personality traits that one commonly finds in decent people.

DBB

Merry Prankster wrote: »

It's hardly surprising that many of those who enjoy killing wild animals for fun turn out to be <snip> is it? To derive pleasure from such an activity requires a certain level of callousness and disregard for suffering - not personality traits that one commonly finds in decent people.

I'm not particularly interested in getting into this side of this debate, as it will pull the thread way off topic. Plus, I also think that tarring every single person with one brush is a silly road to go down. To be fair to the ethos of drag hunting, it is a fair compromise where people get their day out, but there is no animal to be killed at the end.
This particular incident needs investigation, and I'm disgusted by it. But it's not particularly fair to imply that the followers of drag hunts are bloodthirsty.
Followers of non-drag hunts, well, we could debate that all day. But not in this forum!

Merry Prankster

DBB wrote: »

I'm not particularly interested in getting into this side of this debate, as it will pull the thread way off topic. Plus, I also think that tarring every single person with one brush is a silly road to go down. To be fair to the ethos of drag hunting, it is a fair compromise where people get their day out, but there is no animal to be killed at the end.
This particular incident needs investigation, and I'm disgusted by it. But it's not particularly fair to imply that the followers of drag hunts are bloodthirsty.
Followers of non-drag hunts, well, we could debate that all day. But not in this forum!

Fair points, I stand corrected.

gozunda

<snip>
I tried to drop the hint nicely above, but now I will be more forthright.
Do not drag this thread off-topic any more. The poster you quoted has already acknowledged that they may not have been fair in what they said. So let's leave it at that.
Back on topic please.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

fits

A friend of mine wonders if the dog found the laid scent and rolled in it and then came back to her garden. Ugh. Its a plausible explanation. Tragic accident for the dog and her owners if that's the case.

DBB

fits wrote: »

A friend of mine wonders if the dog found the laid scent and rolled in it and then came back to her garden. Ugh. Its a plausible explanation. Tragic accident for the dog and her owners if that's the case.

Anything's possible, but I would say that excuse is rather stretching plausibility to the extreme.

In all the hunts I went on as a kid, the farm birds and pheasants the hounds killed whilst trespassing on private property.... What possible excuse there?

I'll hazard my own guess. On the assumption that very few dog attacks are truly unprovoked, it's predatory behaviour. A pack of hounds come upon something small and fluffy, they will kill it. That they killed a dog (or hen, duck or pheasant) means they killed non-target species, a behaviour called Predatory Drift.
All dogs are capable of it, and those who use dogs to hunt with, particularly in large packs, would be more than familiar with it. They therefore should go to every possible extreme to ensure that it cannot happen when there are other species at potential risk.

fits

DBB wrote: »

Anything's possible, but I would say that excuse is rather stretching plausibility to the extreme.

In all the hunts I went on as a kid, the farm birds and pheasants the hounds killed whilst trespassing on private property.... What possible excuse there?

And I've seen packs of hounds walking quietly close to their huntsman through a field of ewes and newborn lambs under absolutely perfect control. I don't doubt you when you say those things happened but I haven't seen them happen. Its absolutely unacceptable of course as well.. A lot depends on huntsmans skills. As far as I know imfha regulate their member packs very tightly.

fits

Just to add to that, the worst huntsman I ever saw was with a drag pack. It was a complete joke and I wouldn't go near them with a very long bargepole. (not the brays). They shouldn't have had hounds at all imo. They were unaffiliated. I was out with the brays once and thought they were reasonably well organised.

DBB

I'd hazard a guess that a huntsman will make damn, damn sure his hounds will not disturb a field of ewes... Lands to hunt on are becoming increasingly hard to find, and for a hunt to ride gaily through a field of livestock would be suicidal for that hunt.
In this case, hounds were clearly not under control, and as you said, this is a serious failing on the huntsman's part. It's a pity this happened to a drag hunt because they are trying to maintain a compromise which keeps everyone happy.
Part of me wonders if hounds used in drag hunting are simply not as disciplined as full-blown hunting hounds, because they can lay trails that avoid livestock and other potential problems, thus meaning the hounds don't need to be trained as well around livestock?

fits

DBB wrote: »

I'll hazard my own guess. On the assumption that very few dog attacks are truly unprovoked, it's predatory behaviour. A pack of hounds come upon something small and fluffy, they will kill it. That they killed a dog (or hen, duck or pheasant) means they killed non-target species, a behaviour called Predatory Drift.
All dogs are capable of it, and those who use dogs to hunt with, particularly in large packs, would be more than familiar with it. They therefore should go to every possible extreme to ensure that it cannot happen when there are other species at potential risk.

its possible, but doesn't explain how the hounds went off the trail and into the garden. Anyway, I would be interested to know what happened but I doubt we will find out.

lynchieboy

The hounds must have mistook the dog for a fox, hyped up on the hunt, these are the same type of hounds! What a disaster for the family.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op1DOYDybjc

Snickers Man

Justice for Isabelle?

Come on, guys. This has to be a spoof.

There's probably another FB page demanding justice for the Ashford One.

Has this been reported as fact in a reputable media outlet, print, web or broadcast?

If the only evidence is a Facebook page, some healthy skepticism is in order.

Vision of Disorder

gozunda wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish. The people who ride like the BH are the same as other regular individuals - but instead of rugby or wrestling or other activity they ride.

I never realised it was impossible to ride a horse without the accompaniment of a pack of hounds... :rolleyes:

Aptitude wrote: »

Yeah - cause rugby players and wrestlers go around the countryside with packs of killer dogs on the loose. :rolleyes:

It'd be a hell of a gimmick for a wrestler to be fair.

DBB

Snickers Man wrote: »

Justice for Isabelle?

Come on, guys. This has to be a spoof.

There's probably another FB page demanding justice for the Ashford One.

Has this been reported as fact in a reputable media outlet, print, web or broadcast?

If the only evidence is a Facebook page, some healthy skepticism is in order.

A quick Google will reveal that this incident has been reported in several local and national papers, and the hunt has acknowledged it too.

eg http://www.thejournal.ie/dog-attacked-hunt-1200991-Dec2013/

The Bishop Basher

I'm from the area and I don't think there's any doubt that it happened. The details are a lot more sketchy at the moment however.

fits

I'm just thinking.... A full 24 hours elapsed between the incident and the setting up of that Facebook page, and yet whoever set the page up( owners im presuming) didn't even know it was a drag hunt? You'd wonder whether the hunt engaged properly with the family at all.

Imhof Tank

fits wrote: »

It shouldn't have happened - end of story. Don't know all the facts but the huntsman will surely have some questions to answer.

I was following by jeep and had family out on Saturday. Couple of points:

This is the new huntsman's first season and he has 2 new whips with him.

The Brays have been kicked off Kilruddery for the last few years after killing Lord Meath's springer spaniel, so while this would not be a regular occurrence, it is not a first.

fits

^hmm interesting. You'd have to wonder at the level of competence so.

Imhof Tank

fits wrote: »

its possible, but doesn't explain how the hounds went off the trail and into the garden. Anyway, I would be interested to know what happened but I doubt we will find out.

Hounds were not hunting any trail at the time - this was 100 yards away from the meet going back, a gate left open and the pack got in the garden and ..............

fits

. That is bad.

NickyL

What an awful thing to happen ((

Snickers Man

DBB wrote: »

A quick Google will reveal that this incident has been reported in several local and national papers, and the hunt has acknowledged it too.

A quick Google search reveals that the Journal.ie and the Irish Mirror have picked up and reported the story verbatim as it appears on the Facebook page, in the Mirror's case prefacing the cut-and-pasted quotes with the disingenous: "told the Mirror" which implies that the quotes came from a one-on-one conversation with a Mirror reporter.

Many of the quotes from the Journal story are also lifted verbatim from the Justice for Isabelle FB page, although it does appear that its reporter also spoke with whoever set up that page.

I remain deeply skeptical, but like all true skeptics, will acknowledge the story as true if confirmed by reputable agencies. eg the police, a newspaper report that shows some evidence of independent confirmation etc.

boomerang

I'm hating the backlash against hounds, when you read comments posted under news reports online. I've met many foxhounds and harriers in rescue over the years - they are gorgeous dogs. It hurts me to see them vilified. Especially the "will somebody please think of the children" hysteria.

fits

There is some amount of ignorant rubbish being posted in journal comments and on Facebook. Although I should know better than to read that stuff by now.

Imhof Tank

Snickers Man wrote: »

A quick Google search reveals that the Journal.ie and the Irish Mirror have picked up and reported the story verbatim as it appears on the Facebook page, in the Mirror's case prefacing the cut-and-pasted quotes with the disingenous: "told the Mirror" which implies that the quotes came from a one-on-one conversation with a Mirror reporter.

Many of the quotes from the Journal story are also lifted verbatim from the Justice for Isabelle FB page, although it does appear that its reporter also spoke with whoever set up that page.

I remain deeply skeptical, but like all true skeptics, will acknowledge the story as true if confirmed by reputable agencies. eg the police, a newspaper report that shows some evidence of independent confirmation etc.

Snickers, are you seriously suggesting a conspiracy spoof?

Imhof Tank

fits wrote: »

There is some amount of ignorant rubbish being posted in journal comments and on Facebook. Although I should know better than to read that stuff by now.

There is a lot of talk in favour of:-

1. Having all the hounds put down immediately
2. Having the hunt disbanded permanently
3. Having the huntsman, whips and masters jailed
4. Having the followers hunted themselves to the death by a pack of wolves

Edit - had to add this recent one "May all these people involved in such cruel bloodsports die roaring and rot in hell"