When to use beans post-roast

Jezek

Today I was in Vice and wanted to buy some coffee beans. When I told them I did not want to buy the 11 day post-roast Squaremile because it was too old, I was told that it was actually at a perfect spot and at the 'recommended' time to drink. And not just the particulart coffee, they did mean all coffees. Something was mentioned about 'gases' coming off and the taste being the best at this point.

I respectfully disagreed with both people there. I told them that coffee wont be significantly degassing at 9 or 10 days. I told them that some coffee will be best at 11 days but other coffees will be best at 3, or 4, or 5. Especially as I am brewing, and not pulling shots, sometimes the best coffee is young coffee.

I think the best time to buy coffee is a few days, 3-4 days, post roast, and drink it over one or two weeks to see how it goes. I have found that some coffees, usually african, will taste best at two weeks. Others will be best before the end of the first week! This also depends on the method used ( I use a variety).

What is your opinion?

Bohrio

Jezek wrote: »

Today I was in Vice and wanted to buy some coffee beans. When I told them I did not want to buy the 11 day post-roast Squaremile because it was too old, I was told that it was actually at a perfect spot and at the 'recommended' time to drink. And not just the particulart coffee, they did mean all coffees. Something was mentioned about 'gases' coming off and the taste being the best at this point.

I respectfully disagreed with both people there. I told them that coffee wont be significantly degassing at 9 or 10 days. I told them that some coffee will be best at 11 days but other coffees will be best at 3, or 4, or 5. Especially as I am brewing, and not pulling shots, sometimes the best coffee is young coffee.

I think the best time to buy coffee is a few days, 3-4 days, post roast, and drink it over one or two weeks to see how it goes. I have found that some coffees, usually african, will taste best at two weeks. Others will be best before the end of the first week! This also depends on the method used ( I use a variety).

What is your opinion?

IMO, every coffee is different, some coffees will be ready to drink 2 days after roast, some might take longer (3-4 days), some coffees develop their flavour way later, but in general, anything older than 2 weeks will be too old (IMO).

So if they are saying that all coffee is best after 11 days of their roasting day that is wrong, maybe they use a specific coffee that peaks around that time but "normal" coffee will start to lose properties around that time.

In my experience, I start noticing coffee losing taste/properties after 1 1/2 weeks of roasting it. Most of the coffee I drink peaks at 2-3 days after roast and remains ok for another 4-5 days tops.

But that all depends on the coffee, the Brazilian Fazenda Pantano has a different flavor 24 h after roast than it does 2 days later.

The Nicaraguan La Finca Argentina is quite bitter until 3 days after roast, then remains quite good and reaches his peak 5 days later.

Some of the brazilian beans I roast will be ok to drink even 12 h after roast (normally roasted beans this young will taste quite bitter but some might be ok).

This is of course based on my experience, other people will have different views. IT also depends on what roasting level you applied etc.

Jezek

Bohrio wrote: »

IMO, every coffee is different, some coffees will be ready to drink 2 days after roast, some might take longer (3-4 days), some coffees develop their flavour way later, but in general, anything older than 2 weeks will be too old (IMO).

So if they are saying that all coffee is best after 11 days of their roasting day that is wrong, maybe they use a specific coffee that peaks around that time but "normal" coffee will start to lose properties around that time.

In my experience, I start noticing coffee losing taste/properties after 1 1/2 weeks of roasting it. Most of the coffee I drink peaks at 2-3 days after roast and remains ok for another 4-5 days tops.

But that all depends on the coffee, the Brazilian Fazenda Pantano has a different flavor 24 h after roast than it does 2 days later.

The Nicaraguan La Finca Argentina is quite bitter until 3 days after roast, then remains quite good and reaches his peak 5 days later.

Some of the brazilian beans I roast will be ok to drink even 12 h after roast (normally roasted beans this young will taste quite bitter but some might be ok).

This is of course based on my experience, other people will have different views. IT also depends on what roasting level you applied etc.

I completely agree with you. To be honest I think they were just trying to sell me their coffee.

P. Breathnach

There are times when it is an advantage to have a less refined palate!

PPC

I tend to prefer 10+ days for espresso on most beans, the flavours tend to mellow and work better.
For filter, day 3 upto about 10 is the sweet spot, after that it gets relegated to espresso.

OldBean

8 days onwards is at it's best, before that the coffee can taste roasty/gassy. The staff in Vice were pretty on the ball.

Jezek

OldBean wrote: »

8 days onwards is at it's best, before that the coffee can taste roasty/gassy. The staff in Vice were pretty on the ball.

I would disagree...

At least to my palate a lot of coffees have peaked before day 8. But most would probably peak around the week mark. At day 11 is probably either on last end of the plateau of flavour (which lasts a few days) or on the decline.

I say this because I taste a lot of coffees and usually would start tasting on day 3 or 4. Sometimes they will taste gassy or roasty or day 3 or 4 at most!

Let me specify that I am talking about brewing, not espresso . Thanks for the reply, I have heard this from different people, and some of them know a whole lot about coffee! It's just that my personal experience doesn't correspond.

(Appropriate username btw )

Mr Magnolia

Taste profile will vary as time passes. 2-3 days post roast is too soon, the coffee is still very gassy and this will be seen in the bloom. Think of allowing a roasted joint rest to let the juices reabsorb.

I grind 4 days onward but it's accepted that the coffee flavour peaks after a week, levels out for a week and deteriorates after this. This more or less aligns with my experience. I'd have bought it but it's your cash, your choice.

Jezek

Well if you think the taste deteriorates after week 2 ( Which I agree with, give or take a couple of days), then buying a 350 grams coffee bag is too late, no? It takes me a bout 10 days to get through that.

I do know what you mean by too soon, sometimes coffees will be too close to the roast at day 3 or 4, and I'll see a crazy bloom.

Jezek

Interesting Reading!

A Reddit thread with important industry people weighing in

A hilarious blog post by a cranky industry veteran

Kevinski

There are a lot of unknown unknowns in relation to coffee staling. But there is some accessible scientific literature on the subject (see for example Nicoli & Savonitt's paper on "Storage and Packaging" in Illy & Viani's Espresso Coffee publication).

Roasted coffee, unlike other freshly baked products like bread, is a relatively shelf-stable product. The high temperatures achieved during the roasting process and the low water activity mean that no enzymatic or microbial spoliage results. This is why coffee found in supermarkets can have a best before date up to a year after the roast date (and even longer if a vacuum is used during packaging). However, coffee undergoes other chemical and physical changes after roasting which lead to staling.

Staling in coffee is a very complex subject and involves physical and chemical changes which include CO2 release, volatile release, oxidation and other events One of the actions that can be taken to significantly reduce the speed of staling is to vacuum-seal and nitrogen back-flush the coffee prior to packing in one-way valve bags. According to Kevin Knox this "allows natural degassing to occur but slows the rate of staling to a glacial pace, resulting in coffee that is indistinguishable from just-roasted samples of the same coffee for 8-12 weeks from roasting". Peet's in the US would be a good example of a roasting company who pack their coffee in this way. I'd like to pack my coffee like this, but the necessary equipment is very expensive. My own observation on packing coffee in foil bags with a one-way valve compared to say a tin-tie kraft bag is that the foil-bags with valve do keep the coffee fresher but there is no comparison with the extension in shelf-life from vacuum/nitrogen back-flushed packaging. However, once the bag is opened the rate of staling is accelerated regardless of packaging method used.

I've done some rudimentary work measuring pH of brewed coffee from 1 to 20 days post-roast and what I have found is that the pH of all coffees measured increases over time. Now I understand that there is a big difference between pH and perceived acidity (i.e.what you actually taste), and that just because a coffee has a low pH it does not always mean it will have a high perceived acidity. However assuming a correlation between measured pH and perceived acidity, over time roasted coffee looses its acidity (those nice bright notes that make a good washed coffee sparkle). So I think you will certainly notice a drop in the high notes for coffees early on after roasting. If you enjoy the nice acidity of a good Kenyan coffee, brewed using non-pressurized methods, it's good to drink it as early as possible after roasting (allowing a post-roast rest time of around 24hrs ). For espresso extractions, these high notes will also fade early on but what you may find is that around 1-2 weeks post-roast the coffee will reach another sweet spot where more mid-range and low notes will be highlighted.

So in conclusion, what can be done to reduce coffee staling? Freezing is not ideal but it does slow down the staling process. Read Jim Schulman's blind tasting studies on freezing on the Home-Barista site. The other solution is to regularly buy a freshly roasted product (making sure that the roast date is clearly printed on the bag), or try roasting your own coffee.

Bohrio

Kevinski wrote: »

There are a lot of unknown unknowns in relation to coffee staling. But there is some accessible scientific literature on the subject (see for example Nicoli & Savonitt's paper on "Storage and Packaging" in Illy & Viani's Espresso Coffee publication).

Roasted coffee, unlike other freshly baked products like bread, is a relatively shelf-stable product. The high temperatures achieved during the roasting process and the low water activity mean that no enzymatic or microbial spoliage results. This is why coffee found in supermarkets can have a best before date up to a year after the roast date (and even longer if a vacuum is used during packaging). However, coffee undergoes other chemical and physical changes after roasting which lead to staling.

Staling in coffee is a very complex subject and involves physical and chemical changes which include CO2 release, volatile release, oxidation and other events One of the actions that can be taken to significantly reduce the speed of staling is to vacuum-seal and nitrogen back-flush the coffee prior to packing in one-way valve bags. According to Kevin Knox this "allows natural degassing to occur but slows the rate of staling to a glacial pace, resulting in coffee that is indistinguishable from just-roasted samples of the same coffee for 8-12 weeks from roasting". Peet's in the US would be a good example of a roasting company who pack their coffee in this way. I'd like to pack my coffee like this, but the necessary equipment is very expensive. My own observation on packing coffee in foil bags with a one-way valve compared to say a tin-tie kraft bag is that the foil-bags with valve do keep the coffee fresher but there is no comparison with the extension in shelf-life from vacuum/nitrogen back-flushed packaging. However, once the bag is opened the rate of staling is accelerated regardless of packaging method used.

I've done some rudimentary work measuring pH of brewed coffee from 1 to 20 days post-roast and what I have found is that the pH of all coffees measured increases over time. Now I understand that there is a big difference between pH and perceived acidity (i.e.what you actually taste), and that just because a coffee has a low pH it does not always mean it will have a high perceived acidity. However assuming a correlation between measured pH and perceived acidity, over time roasted coffee looses its acidity (those nice bright notes that make a good washed coffee sparkle). So I think you will certainly notice a drop in the high notes for coffees early on after roasting. If you enjoy the nice acidity of a good Kenyan coffee, brewed using non-pressurized methods, it's good to drink it as early as possible after roasting (allowing a post-roast rest time of around 24hrs ). For espresso extractions, these high notes will also fade early on but what you may find is that around 1-2 weeks post-roast the coffee will reach another sweet spot where more mid-range and low notes will be highlighted.

So in conclusion, what can be done to reduce coffee staling? Freezing not ideal but it does slow down the staling process. Read Jim Schulman's blind tasting studies on freezing on the Home-Barista site. The other solution is to regularly buy a freshly roasted product (making sure that the roast date is clearly printed on the bag), or try roasting your own coffee.

I was hoping you would leave your opinion on this thread. I must read more about coffee profiling and tasting studies!

BTW I finished reading the Blue bottle and I have to say it was a very interesting read. Thanks for that!

Doodee

Rule of 14's no?

I find that once I open the bag after 3 - 5 days of the roast date it will then peak about 2 - 3 later. So that would be around the day 7 - 8 from roasting. I think that opening the bag is important.