Landlord moved someone into our apartment!

Bey0nd

Strange situation here that I was looking for advice on.

My girlfriend and I were renting an apartment in Dublin, with our lease due to finish on the 14th December. So on the 14th of November, we naturally paid our last month's rent and began looking for a new apartment (wanted to move to a better area). We found one quick enough, and were due to move in to the new apartment on the 28th November (and we did move on that date).

We didn't mind taking a hit on the rent we had already paid on the old place (i.e. we were paid up to the 14th December., but would be moving out on the 28th November).

Before moving, we told our previous landlord and the letting agency that if someone wanted to move in to our old apartment, it would be free from the 28th November rather than the 14th December so they could move in early if they wanted, provided that the landlord arrange for the portion of rent between the 28th and 14th to be returned to us. Here is how I worded it exactly (extract from the email sent):

"I imagine prospective tenants would want to move in advance of Christmas so you can let them know that it will be free from the 28th if they wish to move in from that date. However this is subject to us getting approval from yourselves and having the appropriate portion of our rent returned. So please give me a shout if you wish to arrange this. Otherwise we will hold on to the keys until the 14th and the apartment will be considered occupied until then. "

The landlord thanked us for letting them know, and said they would get back to us if they had any requests from someone to move in early. We never heard anything back, so figured that was that and moved in to our new place on the 28th.

So we're now living in our new apartment, while still in a lease until the 14th on the old apartment. Decided to call round yesterday evening to check out the old apartment, make sure everything was in order (we still have the keys until the 14th) and what do you know, there's a load of boxes with what I imagine is a new tenant's property. There's a TV, some furniture, a lot of clothes, bedsheets etc. and other personal belongings. Someone else is moving in ahead of the 14th!

Now I know we were happy to take the hit on the rent, but surely this isn't acceptable? I know I should ring the landlord/letting agent straight away but I just wanted to check what rights I have here? What's done is done, but do I have a right to demand part of the rent back? The new tenant, I imagine, has no idea we're still on the lease so I dont want to chuck someone out on the street if they're oblivious to what's going on, but just want to know what I should do now? (Have contacted threshold for advice also btw).

The bloody cheek of some people! Thanks a mill.

Pawwed Rig

The way I see it you are still the lease holder and retain all of your rights. You agreed to waive your right to come and go from the property before the 14th on the condition ' is subject to us getting approval from yourselves and having the appropriate portion of our rent returned.'

This condition has not been met so you are still the leaseholder. The question is what you want to do the remedy the situation. I would recomend giving the LL a call in the first instance and hear their side and ascertain how much (if any) of your rental payment will be returned to you.

omega666

I would imagine the Landlord gave the people who are going to move in permission to store some of their belongings in the APT beforehand.

Just ring up the Landlord and find out what’s going on. They should have got your approval beforehand either way.

No Pants

As no permission was given, or at least the conditions attached to permission were not granted, has someone been trespassing?

As the OP is still the leaseholder, could they then lock up the stuff moved in and charge a fee for the storage?

Pawwed Rig

No Pants wrote: »

As the OP is still the leaseholder, could they then lock up the stuff moved in and charge a fee for the storage?

You would then be punishing an innicent third party.
It would be better to get this settled as civily as possible before getting beligerent. If the LL does give some rent back then neither side has suffered any loss so no harm done. If on the other hand the LL does not give money back and is getting 2 rental incomes at once I would be recommending lodging a complaint with the PRTB.

Either way I don't think hassling the new tenant will achieve anything.

irish_goat

Does it look like someone has been living there or just moved stuff in? E.g. are there dishes on the draining board, milk in the fridge etc?

Since your LL didn't inform you of the new tenant you'd be perfectly entitled to move back in until the 14th yourself so they definitely owe you the rent back if this new tenant is living there before then.

No Pants

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You would then be punishing an innicent third party.
It would be better to get this settled as civily as possible before getting beligerent. If the LL does give some rent back then neither side has suffered any loss so no harm done. If on the other hand the LL does not give money back and is getting 2 rental incomes at once I would be recommending lodging a complaint with the PRTB.

Either way I don't think hassling the new tenant will achieve anything.

Agreed. Sorry, had a rush of blood to the head for a moment. Always better to stay civil until it's time stop being civil.

Mrs OBumble

Assuming you're also looking to get your deposit back, then what date is your move-out inspection scheduled for? Could be interesting doing it on the 14th if the new tenant is in place ...

No Pants

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Assuming you're also looking to get your deposit back, then what date is your move-out inspection scheduled for? Could be interesting doing it on the 14th if the new tenant is in place ...

Very interesting if the landlord tries to claim from the deposit when the property has not been in your hands.

djimi

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Assuming you're also looking to get your deposit back, then what date is your move-out inspection scheduled for? Could be interesting doing it on the 14th if the new tenant is in place ...

Given the fact that the OP has proof that somebody else has been in the property, Id say the landlord would have a hell of a time proving that any damage was caused by the OP. Id be looking for my full deposit returned without question, and being brutally honest Id be looking for my last months rent returned also. Landlord has a bloody nerve and Id imagine if the OP took a case against them then the PRTB would go through the landlord for a shortcut.

jonnybravo

I'd take pictures as proof too if you can't come to an agreement. Try to get something to date the pictures too.

No Pants

jonnybravo wrote: »

I'd take pictures as proof too if you can't come to an agreement. Try to get something to date the pictures too.

Yes, pictures of someone else's stuff sitting in the apartment you're paying the landlord for.

the_syco

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Assuming you're also looking to get your deposit back, then what date is your move-out inspection scheduled for? Could be interesting doing it on the 14th if the new tenant is in place ...

If the landlord mentions any damage, I'd be of the opinion that the OP could blame the new tenant?

Lot of drama over nothing really. If you have your new apartment dont see the problem really

Frank Black

What's the issue OP. You've moved before your original lease is up, it seems like your just being a dog in the manger about your previous apartment. Why would you even care if some one else moves into it, you said yourself you were happy to forgoe the extra rent you had paid, but now suddenly this extra rent is a huge issue for you.
You've moved out, so move on - I can't image a couple of weeks rent is worth getting yourself stressed and angry.

Wabbit Ears

This is weird of you OP.

You told the landlord you are leaving early and if someone wanted to move in before then that would be fine. You did attach conditions but those are pretty much washed out by the base message which is you've moved out early, others can move in.

I cant see how you are entitled to any rent back, it was your decision to move out early and also your decision to say to the landliord he was free to let people move in before your lease was fully up. What arrangements the new tennant has made with the landlord is their buisness. You should expect your deposit back in full but in fairness you should have arranged an inspection on the day you moved out or close enough, not the end of the lease.

No good deed goes unpunished, the mistake here was trying to be nice and saying it was ok to let people move in early and exactly that happened except it wasnt exactly to your conditions.

Live and learn, enjoy your new apartment.

No Pants

I think some folks may have missed these bits.

Bey0nd wrote: »

Before moving, we told our previous landlord and the letting agency that if someone wanted to move in to our old apartment, it would be free from the 28th November rather than the 14th December so they could move in early if they wanted, provided that the landlord arrange for the portion of rent between the 28th and 14th to be returned to us.

Bey0nd wrote: »

"I imagine prospective tenants would want to move in advance of Christmas so you can let them know that it will be free from the 28th if they wish to move in from that date. However this is subject to us getting approval from yourselves and having the appropriate portion of our rent returned. So please give me a shout if you wish to arrange this. Otherwise we will hold on to the keys until the 14th and the apartment will be considered occupied until then. "

Bey0nd wrote: »

The landlord thanked us for letting them know, and said they would get back to us if they had any requests from someone to move in early. We never heard anything back, so figured that was that and moved in to our new place on the 28th.

murphym7

It’s the principle of the thing. Landlord getting double rent for a few weeks, the OP is entitled to dance around naked in the apartment until the 14th UNLESS the landlord is honest and says he has rented it out or allowed the use of the property prior to 14th, in which case I would expect the Landlord to cough up the cash. It is very cheeky indeed. Landlord was very foolish also regarding the deposit and any damage they may find, they have no recourse if any damage is found.

I would leave a little handwritten letter and place neatly on top of the new tenants stuff at the very least. This will show the new tenant that you still have keys/access. This will not go down well I am sure. All for what a couple of weeks rent, if I was the new tenant and saw the letter I would go ballistic and rightly so. Forget about the OP for a minute, what about the new tenant, finding out the previous tenants are still knocking around with access to their new home.

djimi

Deleted User wrote: »

Lot of drama over nothing really. If you have your new apartment dont see the problem really

Frank Black wrote: »

What's the issue OP. You've moved before your original lease is up, it seems like your just being a dog in the manger about your previous apartment. Why would you even care if some one else moves into it, you said yourself you were happy to forgoe the extra rent you had paid, but now suddenly this extra rent is a huge issue for you.
You've moved out, so move on - I can't image a couple of weeks rent is worth getting yourself stressed and angry.

The problem is that the tenancy has not formally ended, and while the tenancy is still in effect the OP is entitled to privacy and exclusive use of the property. I still used my previous apartment for about a fortnight after I had moved my stuff out while I waited for the notice period to wind down; had the OP being doing the same and had they been coming out of the shower or whatever when the new tenants let themselves in then would you still think that its a nothing issue?

Id imagine an inspection has no yet been carried out, which is going to lead to a tricky dispute seeing as the landlord cannot now prove who has caused any damage to the property.

Agent Smith

Random thought that popped into my head.


Could you keep the stuff thats there?


like, Someone has entered your apartment (its yours up untill the 14th right? as no permission or notice was given)

and left stuff there.

maybe it was a gift?

djimi

Agent Smith wrote: »

Random thought that popped into my head.


Could you keep the stuff thats there?


like, Someone has entered your apartment (its yours up untill the 14th right? as no permission or notice was given)

and left stuff there.

maybe it was a gift?

I wouldnt keep it, but I might be temped to move it to a more secure location and then charge the landlord a storage fee :pac:

Frank Black

djimi wrote: »

The problem is that the tenancy has not formally ended, and while the tenancy is still in effect the OP is entitled to privacy and exclusive use of the property. I still used my previous apartment for about a fortnight after I had moved my stuff out while I waited for the notice period to wind down; had the OP being doing the same and had they been coming out of the shower or whatever when the new tenants let themselves in then would you still think that its a nothing issue?

Id imagine an inspection has no yet been carried out, which is going to lead to a tricky dispute seeing as the landlord cannot now prove who has caused any damage to the property.

But that's not what happened is it? That's just a load of whataboutery.

The OP had fully moved out and then for reasons unknown called back around to their old place and noticed someone else had started to move in.
Sure, the LL has been a bit cheeky, but the OP hasn't suffered any loss and shouldn't be getting into a dispute about an issue that has no direct bearing on him.
Just move on.

Daith

Frank Black wrote: »

But that's not what happened is it? That's just a load of whataboutery.

The OP had fully moved out and then for reasons unknown called back around to thier old place and noticed someone else had started to move in.
Sure, the LL has been a bit cheeky, but the OP hasn't suffered any loss and shouldn't be getting into a dispute about an issue that has no direct bearing on him.
Just move on.

What? The OP has paid his rent up to that point. He's still the lease holder. If he wants to move back to the apt or use the apt as storage or whatever he should be able to. If the landlord paid back the rent to the OPs moving date then it would be fine.

The LL is being more than abit cheeky.

djimi

Frank Black wrote: »

But that's not what happened is it? That's just a load of whataboutery.

The OP had fully moved out and then for reasons unknown called back around to their old place and noticed someone else had started to move in.
Sure, the LL has been a bit cheeky, but the OP hasn't suffered any loss and shouldn't be getting into a dispute about an issue that has no direct bearing on him.
Just move on.

The point is that the tenancy had not ended; the OP was still officially living there and the landlord had no business letting themselves into the property. Thats the bottom line. Its not about money; its about privacy. Why the OP was in the property is irrelevant; they were fully entitled to be there as they still had an active tenancy, and they were quite entitled to expect that they still had exclusive use of the property. If they want to sleep naked in the middle of the living room floor then they are well within their rights to do so; it makes no difference that they were also renting somewhere else.

The landlord is not being cheeky; they have broken the law.

Clearlier

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

This is weird of you OP.

You told the landlord you are leaving early and if someone wanted to move in before then that would be fine. You did attach conditions but those are pretty much washed out by the base message which is you've moved out early, others can move in.

I cant see how you are entitled to any rent back, it was your decision to move out early and also your decision to say to the landliord he was free to let people move in before your lease was fully up. What arrangements the new tennant has made with the landlord is their buisness. You should expect your deposit back in full but in fairness you should have arranged an inspection on the day you moved out or close enough, not the end of the lease.

No good deed goes unpunished, the mistake here was trying to be nice and saying it was ok to let people move in early and exactly that happened except it wasnt exactly to your conditions.

Live and learn, enjoy your new apartment.

It isn't weird at all. It's equivalent to the OP deciding that as he was moving out on the 28th he would only pay rent up to the 28th. They had an agreement which they were honouring. The OP made an offer to change the agreement if it suited both parties. The suggestion is that the landlord took but did not give back.

It's probably (and hopefully) just a misunderstanding/lack of communication which will be cleared up as soon as the OP manages to speak to the LL.

Possibly the LL needed to temporarily store some stuff or he's agreed to let the apartment from the 14th but told the new tenants that they can put stuff in there in the meantime - they would still have had no right to do this without the OP's permission but if they're an accidental LL they might not know that. Obviously that's not a good situation but where there's good will and ignorance it should be easier to resolve than if there's bad will.

OP - I would contact the LL and establish the facts. Once you have the LL's side you'll be able to make a better call on what to do. If they are moving somebody in then it's entirely reasonable of you to expect the LL to stick to your agreement and return an appropriate portion of the rent.

Pawwed Rig

Frank Black wrote: »

Sure, the LL has been a bit cheeky, but the OP hasn't suffered any loss and shouldn't be getting into a dispute about an issue that has no direct bearing on him.
Just move on.

If someone moves into my house while I am on holidays without my permission. They don't steal anything and clean up after themselves leaving me money for bills etc.

It is a bit cheeky but I haven't suffered any loss and shouldn't be getting into a dispute about it?

Thoie

murphym7 wrote: »

It’s the principle of the thing. Landlord getting double rent for a few weeks, the OP is entitled to dance around naked in the apartment until the 14th UNLESS the landlord is honest and says he has rented it out or allowed the use of the property prior to 14th, in which case I would expect the Landlord to cough up the cash. It is very cheeky indeed. Landlord was very foolish also regarding the deposit and any damage they may find, they have no recourse if any damage is found.

I would leave a little handwritten letter and place neatly on top of the new tenants stuff at the very least. This will show the new tenant that you still have keys/access. This will not go down well I am sure. All for what a couple of weeks rent, if I was the new tenant and saw the letter I would go ballistic and rightly so. Forget about the OP for a minute, what about the new tenant, finding out the previous tenants are still knocking around with access to their new home.

I was going to suggest something similar - leave a note for the new tenant explaining that you're not due to hand back the keys until the 14th as you're paid up until then. Take a photo of the stuff in there with today's paper (with the date clearly showing) and keep it for your records.

Frank Black

Daith wrote: »

What? If he wants to move back to the apt or use the apt as storage or whatever he should be able to. .

He doesn't though does he?
More whataboutery

djimi wrote: »

The point is that the tenancy had not ended; the OP was still officially living there and the landlord had no business letting themselves into the property. Thats the bottom line. Its not about money; its about privacy. Why the OP was in the property is irrelevant; they were fully entitled to be there as they still had an active tenancy, and they were quite entitled to expect that they still had exclusive use of the property. If they want to sleep naked in the middle of the living room floor then they are well within their rights to do so; it makes no difference that they were also renting somewhere else.

The landlord is not being cheeky; they have broken the law.

The OP wasn't living there - they were living in their new apartment,
They called back around to the old place for no reason whatsoever from what I can make out.

So what if they were still 'entitled' to do something - they had no wish to do any of the things you've gone off on a tangent about.

This is an issue which has basically zero effect on the OP and some people here are advising him to start looking at his legal options - what a load of ****e,

Daith

Frank Black wrote: »

He doesn't though does he?
More whataboutery




The OP wasn't living there - they were living in their new apartment,
They called back around to the old place for no reason whatsoever from what I can make out.

So what if they were still 'entitled' to do something - they had no wish to do any of the things you've gone off on a tangent about.

This is an issue which has basically zero effect on the OP and some people here are advising him to start looking at his legal options - what a load of ****e,

He's still the leaseholder. He's paid up to that point. It doesn't matter if he does or does not go back to the apt. It's his until the lease is up.

Frank Black wrote: »

They called back around to the old place for no reason whatsoever from what I can make out

He's still paying rent on it. He's more than entitled to go back to his apt.

No Pants

Quick question OP; what about your utilities? Are the accounts closed/transferred to your new address?

djimi

Frank Black wrote: »

The OP wasn't living there - they were living in their new apartment,
They called back around to the old place for no reason whatsoever from what I can make out.

So what if they were still 'entitled' to do something - they had no wish to do any of the things you've gone off on a tangent about.

This is an issue which has basically zero effect on the OP and some people here are advising him to start looking at his legal options - what a load of ****e,

The only relevant point is that the OP still has an active tenancy. That is all that matters. What they do with this tenancy is entirely their own business, but until that tenancy ends, they are free to come and go as often as they please, and are entitled to expect to find it as they left it, as they would at any other time they were living there.

You can blow it off as a nothing issue all you want; it might be a minor issue to you, but most people would feel that while they are paying rent for a property they have a right to expect exclusive use of said property, and the OP is quite right to feel aggrieved abuot this.