First public sector compulsory redundancies ever?

jank

I will never understand how Ireland abdicated part of its sovereignty to the public sector unions. The very fact that the public sector has largely been unaffected by reform, measures of efficiency and compulsory redundancies so far into this crisis is mind boggling. As soon as we have a few extra euros in the pocket the same worms will come out of the woodwork with plea's for extra dough for 'reform' or 'for working through the recession'

In OZ and NZ where I have lived the past 6 years, governments have come and gone but one thing that is done here is that the cloth is cut to measure. During the GFC, NZ sacked 10,000 of public servants and initiated reforms due to future lower tax receipts where they couldn't afford that many numbers in the public sector work force. In OZ it is slightly different as the state has more power over government in various states than federal government but the same thing happened for example in Queensland. Queensland economy was on the ropes a little and a new liberal government entered office and immediately sacked 14,000 public sector workers and contractors.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/full-list-of-queensland-public-service-redundancies/story-e6freon6-1226471881372

Guess what? The roof didn't fall in and life went on. God forbid we actually tried to reform the public sector in Ireland.

Sheldons Brain

I will never understand how Ireland abdicated part of its sovereignty to the public sector unions. The very fact that the public sector has largely been unaffected by reform, measures of efficiency and compulsory redundancies so far into this crisis is mind boggling.

Up to 30% percent paycuts hardly represents "being unaffected".

However, your question also hints at a much more serious problem, the lack of reform. If the Irish people vote for people who want a public service that can be manipulated for political reasons rather than for people who want a public service operating at benchmark levels of efficiency (and paid accordingly), then that's what you'll get. This public attitude can be seen in the comments in this forum, which usually have little interest in accuracy and which invariably fail to distinguish between aspects of public service that are moderately well delivered and those that are a disgrace. As long as that is the level of the debate, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Silentcorner

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Up to 30% percent paycuts hardly represents "being unaffected".

However, your question also hints at a much more serious problem, the lack of reform. If the Irish people vote for people who want a public service that can be manipulated for political reasons rather than for people who want a public service operating at benchmark levels of efficiency (and paid accordingly), then that's what you'll get. This public attitude can be seen in the comments in this forum, which usually have little interest in accuracy and which invariably fail to distinguish between aspects of public service that are moderately well delivered and those that are a disgrace. As long as that is the level of the debate, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Ah I get it...the problem with reform in the public sector or lack thereof is the fault of the Irish voter!!!!! So we can add that to list of failed banking regulation/dysfunctional judiciary/dysfunctional political system/corrupt/inept politicians...what else can we pin on the Irish voter?

The public sector gets criticized as much as our political system on these forums, and quiet rightly so...clearly both are in need of reform (I am not suggesting pay cuts, for fear of being attacked)...there are so many critical areas of society which do not reflect the express opinions of the broader electorate...by pinning every issue we have on the Irish voter does not put you in a position to be criticizing the level of debate...

Sheldons Brain

The public sector gets criticized as much as our political system on these forums, and quiet rightly so...clearly both are in need of reform (I am not suggesting pay cuts, for fear of being attacked)...there are so many critical areas of society which do not reflect the express opinions of the broader electorate...by pinning every issue we have on the Irish voter does not put you in a position to be criticizing the level of debate...

As long as the voter says "he fixed my road", rather than "he ensured an efficient cost-effective road maintenance system", nothing will improve.
There was a thread started recently on sickness leave in local authorities. In this there was some data which showed a significant difference between the best and worst local authority. Do people know or care whether where their authority is on this scale, how do they reward the good ones?

woodoo

K-9 wrote: »

About how many are employed in the semi-state sector?

I'm not sure but i would be interested to know how the CSO use the income data. How do they arrive at their averages.

I would email them and ask if i thought they would respond.

malibu4u

jank wrote: »

During the GFC, NZ sacked 10,000 of public servants and initiated reforms due to future lower tax receipts where they couldn't afford that many numbers in the public sector work force.

New Zealand has the same approximate population as Ireland. The day may come when 10,000 public servants lose their job here too. However I think wages should fall before people lose their jobs.

maninasia

Wages have fallen for new entrants and contractors have lost their jobs, the people already in pulled up the ladder around them.

woodoo

malibu4u wrote: »

However I think wages should fall before people lose their jobs.

Wages have fallen there has been already been paycuts and another in the from of a pension levy. We have reduced our PS numbers by 3 times as many as NZ. There has been a reduction 30,000 since 2008. You are just unhappy that you didn't get to see crying public servants on the news after being sacked.

jank

woodoo wrote: »

Wages have fallen there has been already been paycuts and another in the from of a pension levy. We have reduced our PS numbers by 3 times as many as NZ. There has been a reduction 30,000 since 2008. You are just unhappy that you didn't get to see crying public servants on the news after being sacked.

30,000 PS workers were left go?

superman28

There have been some interesting points made on both sides,, and again I don't really want to attack public sector workers themselves,, it just seems the whole system the PS work in is un-accountable and even corrupt. There as been alot of talk about pay etc,, and that's fine,, but I think the more serious issue is the system..

I used to work for a semi-state and there were people there openly doing sweet FA.. just counting the hours to retirement,, it was embarrassing. I would say everyone working in the PS knows of people like this,, very few people in the private sector know people like this for the simple reason you would get sacked.

I believe the largely unaccountable 'semi-states' are where the real problems can rest. Remember the boss of Dublin Airport his salary was an amazing €612,500 per year for leaving the company in debt and building a massive and empty Terminal 2? I lump the so called semi states in with the rest of the PS as they government controlled.

Recently another report showing sick days in the public sector taking twice the sick days of the private sector, with workers in Limerick city taking an AVERAGE of 17 sick days a year... (what a joke) http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/local-authority-sick-leave-twice-that-in-the-private-sector-1.1616147

As for performance apprasial,, out of the 30,000 civil servants in Ireland only 0.84 per are judged as needing improvement..
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

Again, I have no problem with the honest hard working people of the PS you should have nothing to worry about,, and good luck to you,,, However, if you are bone idol waster.. you should be sacked,, like in the real world (private sector).. You work for your country and the tax payer.. your employer is the government who I elect..

But,, the system is corrupt and broken,, and greed and self serving policies continue to the detriment of everyone involved, no matter where you work.. we have a culture of no one taking responsibility, just read the news,,

Gumbo

jank wrote: »

30,000 PS workers were left go?

320k at the height, now at approx 290k.

miju

noodler wrote: »

I want you to answer this because I'd be interested to know if you are comparing a high end investment banker, actuary or CEO with an average public sector position. Its a very weak statment though - almost as bad as public sector critics who use the "I know a guy who..." lines.

I'll pose you a question to you.

What position in the private sector would you equate to a person in the public sector who manages a small spend of say €25 million

chopper6

superman28 wrote: »

There have been some interesting points made on both sides,, and again I don't really want to attack public sector workers themselves,, it just seems the whole system the PS work in is un-accountable and even corrupt. There as been alot of talk about pay etc,, and that's fine,, but I think the more serious issue is the system..

I used to work for a semi-state and there were people there openly doing sweet FA.. just counting the hours to retirement,, it was embarrassing. I would say everyone working in the PS knows of people like this,, very few people in the private sector know people like this for the simple reason you would get sacked.

,,

Ah God not again..."i know somebody who...".

Get a job in Dunnes Stores and you'll see how hard the "private sector" are working.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057098500

jank

kceire wrote: »

320k at the height, now at approx 290k.

So natural turnover than, no reforms or efficiencies to speak off. The same deadwood clocking in and out.

miju

Jawgap wrote: »

I'd go so far as to say that we're starting to see signs of the type of practices we were seeing in the mid-2000s where we were effectively training people up to go into the private sector.

As I said, this relates to my own bit of the PS - others may have a different experience.

I would agree and heres why.

I'm ex Civil Servant for a month or so now after 8 or so years.

I didn't leave by choice I wanted to stay in my job but Haddington Road deteriorated my working conditions to the point where there was no benefit of staying in the public sector any longer financial or otherwise.

My office had over 6 specialists in their field (myself included) with the qualifications / knowledge in very high demand and required within the Public Sector and not easily replaced.

Over the course of just one month all of us have left for various new ventures and I was last to go. The reason for us all was simply a severe deterioration of working conditions and pay under Croke Park and Haddington Road.

I believe the phrase that summed it up perfectly for me was "private sector conditions for public sector pay"

chopper6

miju wrote: »

I'll pose you a question to you.

What position in the private sector would you equate to a person in the public sector who manages a small spend of say €25 million

I'd like to see the Private Sector Gardai too.

miju

chopper6 wrote: »

I'd like to see the Private Sector Gardai too.

Me too :P. However, in the context of my question it has nothing to do with any specific state organisation. I've picked a quite small amount of money of €25 mill for a reason and I'm sure most in the Public Service know full well why.

ardmacha

I didn't leave by choice I wanted to stay in my job but Haddington Road deteriorated my working conditions to the point where there was no benefit of staying in the public sector any longer financial or otherwise.

My office had over 6 specialists in their field (myself included) with the qualifications / knowledge in very high demand and required within the Public Sector and not easily replaced.

Haddington Road was designed to do this, the cuts were designed so the clerk would not be cut but the IT manager probably would, the primary school teacher probably wouldn't be cut but the biotechnology lecturer probably would. But some people got cut and that makes the shadenfreude fans here feel good.

creedp

jank wrote: »

So natural turnover than, no reforms or efficiencies to speak off. The same deadwood clocking in and out.

At least you can't be criticised for practicising he dark art of extreme generalisation

chopper6

jank wrote: »

So natural turnover than, no reforms or efficiencies to speak off. The same deadwood clocking in and out.

Yes the same deadwood running the country while you piss and grizzle on the internet.

Godge

jank wrote: »

So natural turnover than, no reforms or efficiencies to speak off. The same deadwood clocking in and out.

jank wrote: »

I will never understand how Ireland abdicated part of its sovereignty to the public sector unions. The very fact that the public sector has largely been unaffected by reform, measures of efficiency and compulsory redundancies so far into this crisis is mind boggling. As soon as we have a few extra euros in the pocket the same worms will come out of the woodwork with plea's for extra dough for 'reform' or 'for working through the recession'

In OZ and NZ where I have lived the past 6 years, governments have come and gone but one thing that is done here is that the cloth is cut to measure. During the GFC, NZ sacked 10,000 of public servants and initiated reforms due to future lower tax receipts where they couldn't afford that many numbers in the public sector work force. In OZ it is slightly different as the state has more power over government in various states than federal government but the same thing happened for example in Queensland. Queensland economy was on the ropes a little and a new liberal government entered office and immediately sacked 14,000 public sector workers and contractors.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/full-list-of-queensland-public-service-redundancies/story-e6freon6-1226471881372

Guess what? The roof didn't fall in and life went on. God forbid we actually tried to reform the public sector in Ireland.

What a load of rubbish you are spouting.

In Ireland the government has reduced the size of the public service by 30,000 using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

In Queensland the government has reduced the size of the public service by using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

In New Zealand the government has reduced the size of the public service by using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

Gumbo

jank wrote: »

So natural turnover than, no reforms or efficiencies to speak off. The same deadwood clocking in and out.

So you had no reason to ask what the figures where, you just wanted to take your hand bag out for a bitch ?

jank

Godge wrote: »

What a load of rubbish you are spouting.

In Ireland the government has reduced the size of the public service by 30,000 using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

In Queensland the government has reduced the size of the public service by using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

In New Zealand the government has reduced the size of the public service by using a mixture of voluntary redundancy, early retirement, non-filling of vacancies and redeployment of surplus staff.

There was forced redundacnies in Queensland and NZ.

The major cuts will help the Newman Government achieve its target of wiping the state's payroll of 14,000 fulltime equivalent workers to save $3.7 billion by 2015-16.

That includes 10,600 redundancies with their payouts likely to cost $800 million and another 3400 in axed temporary contract workers and vacant positions.

Queensland Health will bear the brunt of the cuts, with 4140 of its staff to be handed redundancies.

The Budget papers state that the total reduction in FTE positions is about 14,000 - with the difference between that figure and the numbers above (10,600) due to the Government discontinuing temporary positions and not filling vacant positions

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/full-list-of-queensland-public-service-redundancies/story-e6freon6-1226471881372

The New Zealand Defence Force is one of the most heavily affected by cuts, with 685 people leaving voluntarily between August last year and January this year, and 297 others who were made redundant last year as part of the White Paper review.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6590221/Australia-beckons-for-sacked-workers

The New Zealand Defence Force made 212 people redundant last year in attempts to reach cost saving targets set by the Government's White Paper. Another 685 people left the service voluntarily between August and January

jank

kceire wrote: »

So you had no reason to ask what the figures where, you just wanted to take your hand bag out for a bitch ?

I am just bewilldered why there hasnt been any effort at all to reform the PS. Unions dont care about reform, they just care about their position of power in dictating terms to the government and in extension the Irish tax payer. Even the PS workers themsleves want reform but due to system are either beaten down or weeded out.

RichardAnd

The title of this thread is fairly misleading, to say the least

chopper6

jank wrote: »

I am just bewilldered why there hasnt been any effort at all to reform the PS. Unions dont care about reform, they just care about their position of power in dictating terms to the government and in extension the Irish tax payer. Even the PS workers themsleves want reform but due to system are either beaten down or weeded out.

Nonsense...as usual.

miju

jank wrote: »

Unions dont care about reform, they just care about their position of power in dictating terms to the government

Unions are gone at this stage truth be told they have been broken by FG / Lab.

They have no power of dictating terms to any government and are at this stage completely inept when it comes to alot of issues.

Case in point they rolled over without so much as a whimper in regards to the new sick leave arrangements coming in January which really significantly changes the conditions of employment for all in the public service.

The funny thing is though that those who can or are able to get out are moving with a main portion of the deadwood staying and people are wondering why there is no drive to reform.

Careful what you wish for :p:p:p:p:p

chopper6 wrote: »

Yes the same deadwood running the country while you piss and grizzle on the internet.

Speaking of deadwood you never replied to my question

jank

chopper6 wrote: »

Nonsense...as usual.

By all means make a point rather than just increasing your post count with a nothing remark.

sarumite

chopper6 wrote: »

Nonsense...as usual.

Without passing any judgement on the veracity of the post you're replying to, your trite response could be improved if you were to offer a subsequent riposte that explained why you believe the posters opinion is 'nonsense'

K-9

chopper6 wrote: »

Yes the same deadwood running the country while you piss and grizzle on the internet.

kceire wrote: »

So you had no reason to ask what the figures where, you just wanted to take your hand bag out for a bitch ?

chopper6 wrote: »

Nonsense...as usual.

miju wrote: »

Speaking of deadwood you never replied to my question

Mod:

This type of sniping and pettiness is frowned on in the forum. Posters are well aware of this so I'm assuming they just don't care. Last warning before cards and/or bans are handed out.

Godge

jank wrote: »

There was forced redundacnies in Queensland and NZ.


http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/full-list-of-queensland-public-service-redundancies/story-e6freon6-1226471881372


http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6590221/Australia-beckons-for-sacked-workers

The New Zealand Defence Force made 212 people redundant last year in attempts to reach cost saving targets set by the Government's White Paper. Another 685 people left the service voluntarily between August and January

Newspaper articles don't tell the full story. Have looked into the Queensland stuff and I really don't think it is compulsory redundancies as we know it, in fact you have denials from the prime minister that any civil servant was forced to leave his job.

The New Zealand situation is harder to get information on and is complicated by the public service structures there. Much of the New Zealand public sector is more readily comparable to our commercial semi-state sector where sackings/firing/redundancy occur with regularity. Would like to see an example of a core New Zealand civil servant being made compulsorily redundant.

Anyway, before getting dragged further into this tit-for-tat argument, I have a question for you. If the government has a target to reduce public service numbers by 40,000 and this is achieved or achievable by voluntary means, what is the obsession with wanting to fire swathes of public servants?

In nearly every partial redundancy situation in the world (i.e. not a complete shut-down of operations) employers like to get volunteers first. Why is this not acceptable practice for the public service?

woodoo

jank wrote: »

By all means make a point rather than just increasing your post count with a nothing remark.

You have been around here a long time and if at this stage you still think there has been no reform then i give up..

chopper6

Godge wrote: »

If the government has a target to reduce public service numbers by 40,000 and this is achieved or achievable by voluntary means, what is the obsession with wanting to fire swathes of public servants?

Irish begrudgery...and the Govt lackeys in the Indo trying to bring everybody down to their own level of ignorance.

The country wouldn't last a week without the efforts of the PS but the begrudgers don't understand this.

woodoo

Godge wrote: »

Anyway, before getting dragged further into this tit-for-tat argument, I have a question for you. If the government has a target to reduce public service numbers by 40,000 and this is achieved or achievable by voluntary means, what is the obsession with wanting to fire swathes of public servants?
?

They want tears on the 6.01 news. They want to see images of tearful public servants carrying boxes from their former offices and weeping on the news that now they can't afford their mortgage etc. I think its really that simple for some of the anti PS brigade.

We have experienced posters here still maintaining that there have been no reforms. They have a one track mind and they haven't taken on any new info regarding the PS since 2008. I haven't been involved in these threads for quite some time and its very depressing to come back and see the same people who haven't moved an inch from their original position.

sarumite

woodoo wrote: »

its very depressing to come back and see the same people who haven't moved an inch from their original position.

Depressing indeed. I think that's a sentiment we can both agree on.

chopper6

sarumite wrote: »

Depressing indeed. I think that's a sentiment we can both agree on.

What does that actually mean?


The figures are widely available to support the assertation that there have been pay cuts,job losses and reform in the PS yet some people are arguing the toss to the contrary.

Sheldons Brain

Depressing indeed. I think that's a sentiment we can both agree on.

What is depressing is the fact free nature of much of the comment here, which reflects the position in the country generally. In the media, as in here, there seems no shame in making unsubstantiated comments as if they reflected reality. Some posters here are making a good effort towards reasoned debate, but more are making none.

sarumite

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

What is depressing is the fact free nature of much of the comment here, which reflects the position in the country generally. In the media, as in here, there seems no shame in making unsubstantiated comments as if they reflected reality. Some posters here are making a good effort towards reasoned debate, but more are making none.

I would add an excessive amount of ad hominem arguments, trite remarks and knee jerk responses to the that list.

gozunda

chopper6 wrote: »

Yeah?

Tell us in detail what happened.

You doubt this happens then you live in cloud cuckoo land

The issue is in the court system at present. I am sure you will get the full details in time

Those who think they are untouchable because they they are under the employ of the state - think again.

gozunda

Jawgap wrote: »

that suggests the courts were involved - can you point us to the court report / case?

You think PS employees are conceived without sin? Really...the specific case I referenced to are before the court at present only because an individual has spent their personal resources in prosecuting the individuals involved. There are no internal controls on these individuals, they behave as if they have absolute discretion. Time this was uncovered and dealt with properly and where to have found to have acted illegally - be sacked minus pension and other CS benefits.

Sheldons Brain

sarumite wrote: »

I would add an excessive amount of ad hominem arguments, trite remarks and knee jerk responses to the that list.

is it trite to say that you would say that, wouldn't you :rolleyes:

sarumite

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

is it trite to say that you would say that, wouldn't you :rolleyes:

At the very least, I would consider it an unsubstantiated comment

chopper6

gozunda wrote: »

You think PS employees are conceived without sin? Really...the specific case I referenced to are before the court at present only because an individual has spent their personal resources in prosecuting the individuals involved. There are no internal controls on these individuals, they behave as if they have absolute discretion. Time this was uncovered and dealt with properly and where to have found to have acted illegally - be sacked minus pension and other CS benefits.

So are you saying a member of the public service may or may not have commited a crime?


Or are you implying that the entire PS is a criminal conspiracy,freely breaking the law to feather thier own greedy nests and immune from any kind of punishment?

The whole tone of your post suggests there was some kind of nefarious plot sorrounding a web of freemasonry in cahoots with some kind of cabal.


Could you provide some details please? Or have you been sworn to secrecy untill the PS is purged of it's murdering racketeers?

Jawgap

Originally you said......

gozunda wrote: »

I know of at least once incident where a senior PS worker was found to have acted illegally within their role. Nothing done, the individuals job still safe in the arms of the state. Nice

Now, apparently,

gozunda wrote: »

You think PS employees are conceived without sin? Really...the specific case I referenced to are before the court at present only because an individual has spent their personal resources in prosecuting the individuals involved. There are no internal controls on these individuals, they behave as if they have absolute discretion. Time this was uncovered and dealt with properly and where to have found to have acted illegally - be sacked minus pension and other CS benefits.

Nice of you to give the person the presumption of innocence......:rolleyes:

And, no, i don't think PS workers are conceived without sin - neither do I think they are any more or less corrupt than the general population.

You get corrupt individuals in the PS just as you do in private enterprises - in fact some of the greatest scams have been perpetrated by a combination of corrupt PS staff and employees of private companies.

Btw, having worked in both private and public sectors I can attest to the fact that the controls in place in the PS are comprehensive, more so that when I worked for a private firm. The budgetary discretion is also much narrower than the private sector and the threshold of materiality significantly lower.

The money is spent right - which is not to say it is spent on the right things.

gozunda

Jawgap wrote: »

Nice of you to give the person the presumption of innocence......:

Independent investigation already proved and nothing done by relevant bodies ... Hence court case. Before the court at present. Don't worry I'm sure you will be able to read about with all the other cases of corruption and scandal in the PS over the years.

Jawgap wrote: »

I can attest to the fact that the controls in place in the PS are comprehensive, more so that when I worked for a private firm. The budgetary discretion is also much narrower than the private sector and the threshold of materiality significantly lower.

The money is spent right - which is not to say it is spent on the right things.

Not in my experience. Take all the PS corruption that has been uncovered by individuals who have risked everything to do do

There appears to be a culture of untouchable abuse within the PS. That is not to say that all PS are such - but that the system encourages corrupt individuals to believe they can get away with such practices..

gozunda

chopper6 wrote: »

So are you saying a member of the public service may or may not have commited a crime?

Or are you implying that the entire PS is a criminal conspiracy,freely breaking the law to feather thier own greedy nests and immune from any kind of punishment?

The whole tone of your post suggests there was some kind of nefarious plot sorrounding a web of freemasonry in cahoots with some kind of cabal.

Could you provide some details please? Or have you been sworn to secrecy untill the PS is purged of it's murdering racketeers?

Read what I clearly detailed. If you wish to misquote that's fine. But don't expect an answer to such rubbish points. Case before court at present. As replied above I'm sure it will make very interesting but hardly new reading, or perhaps you just don't care to read the articles over the years that have detailed corrupt individuals / practices within the PS.

Jawgap

gozunda wrote: »

Independent investigation already proved and nothing done by relevant bodies ... Hence court case. Before the court at present. Don't worry I'm sure you will be able to read about with all the other cases of corruption and scandal in the PS over the years.



Not in my experience. Take all the PS corruption that has been uncovered by brave individuals who have risked everything to do do

There appears to be a culture of untouchable abuse within the PS. That is not to say that all PS are such - but that the system encourages corrupt individuals to believe they can get away with such practices..

I suppose that's quite convenient - you can just wait for the next case involving corruption in the PS and if the person is found guilty simply announce that that was the case you were talking about.

Yes corruption, false accounting and misappropriation go on in the PS - but it's other Public Servants (AGS Fraud Squad, CAB, Internal Auditors, SIUs) who investigate and weed it out - then other Public Servants build the case, prosecute and punish the individuals (if found guilty).

I wonder if the internal auditors were as diligent in the banks as they are in the PS would be in quite the situation we are now?

gozunda

Jawgap wrote: »

I suppose that's quite convenient - you can just wait for the next case involving corruption in the PS and if the person is found guilty simply announce that that was the case you were talking about.

Yes corruption, false accounting and misappropriation go on in the PS - but it's other Public Servants (AGS Fraud Squad, CAB, Internal Auditors, SIUs) who investigate and weed it out - then other Public Servants build the case, prosecute and punish the individuals (if found guilty).

I wonder if the internal auditors were as diligent in the banks as they are in the PS would be in quite the situation we are now?

You are I presume aware of normal court processes? So yes you will have to wait...I believe that is standard practice. Good of you to admit other cases of PS corruption have appeared before the courts. So yes I suppose you may take your pick.

Your second point appears to suggest that the foxes in the chicken house are their own judge and jury - nice for the foxes not so good for the chickens.

And your reference to CAB etc applies to criminal activity external of the PS, where are the internal reviews - where are the individual PS employers being outed or held responsible by the PS system itself?

In my experience it is private individuals or other individuals of the PS who risk everything that have successfully broken the cover of such corruption

Time to stop moving the bodies and face up that we as a country have an unenviable reputation for corruption, payments, parish pump politics and this is made quite evident in any reading of past history.

Denial of the obvious does not make it go away.

See

http://transparency.ie/news_events/corruption-perceptions-index-2013-what-can-ireland-learn-hong-kong

Jawgap

gozunda wrote: »

You are I presume aware of normal court processes? So yes you will have to wait...I believe that is standard practice. Good of you to admit multiple cases of PS corruption have appeared before the courts. So yes I suppose you may take your pick.

Your second point appears to suggest that the foxes in the chicken house are their own judge and jury - nice for the foxes not so good for the chickens.

And your reference to CAB etc applies to criminal activity external of the PS, where are the internal reviews - where are the individual PS employers being outed or held responsible by the PS system itself?

In my experience it is private individuals or other individuals of the PS who risk everything that have successfully broken the cover of such corruption

Time to stop moving the bodies and face up that we as a country have an unenviable reputation for corruption, payments, parish pump politics and this is made quite evident in any reading of past history.

Denial of the obvious does not make it go away.

See

http://transparency.ie/news_events/corruption-perceptions-index-2013-what-can-ireland-learn-hong-kong

.....and broad generalisations do not make something true.

I'm not saying there are no corrupt individuals in the PS, but corruption is neither as widespread or wholesale as you suggest.

And while I'm back on, CAB deal with criminal conduct, not criminal activity - the distinction is about subtle and important and was introduced by the 2005 amending Act - the same Act that allows CAB to seek a 'corrupt enrichment order' against anyone who "derives a pecuniary or other advantage or benefit as a result of or in connection with corrupt conduct, wherever the conduct occurred."

So maybe I do know what I'm talking about

Btw - CAB are not above nailing corrupt civil servants either

Finally, Hong Kong? Seriously? that's what you want to compare us against?

Normally Transparency International's CPI is used as the benchmark but I guess the fact that we rank 21st (from25th in 2012) doesn't suit your ideas about the PS.

Yes, there are problems but not to the extent a lot people suggest.

gozunda

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and broad generalisations do not make something true.
I'm not saying there are no corrupt individuals in the PS, but corruption is neither as widespread or wholesale as you suggest.
And while I'm back on, CAB deal with criminal conduct, not criminal activity - the distinction is about subtle and important and was introduced by the 2005 amending Act - the same Act that allows CAB to seek a 'corrupt enrichment order' against anyone who "derives a pecuniary or other advantage or benefit as a result of or in connection with corrupt conduct, wherever the conduct occurred."

So maybe I do know what I'm talking about

Btw - CAB are not above nailing corrupt civil servants either

Finally, Hong Kong? Seriously? that's what you want to compare us against?

Normally Transparency International's CPI is used as the benchmark but I guess the fact that we rank 21st (from25th in 2012) doesn't suit your ideas about the PS.

Yes, there are problems but not to the extent a lot people suggest.

You clearly did not read the whole article if a sense of false nationalistic bias makes us 'think' that lovely little Ireland is somehow the proverbial isle of saints and scholars compared to another country.

I will Quote the Transparency International article listed above again for your benefit...


"Unlike Hong Kong, Ireland does not have a single agency dedicated to fighting corruption. The closest comparison that can be drawn to ICAC is the Standards in Public Office Commission. It has nine staff and cannot fully investigate wrongdoing without a prior complaint. Other agencies that tackle white-collar crime also lack the resources they need to do their job. The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement has been perennially understaffed since it was established in 2001. The Gardaí also have scant resources to fight corruption, and show little appetite for investigating corruption-related offences. In total, Ireland has five times fewer employees allocated to investigate every form of white collar crime than Hong Kong has to investigate wrongdoing by public officials.

When there are so few people trained and paid to uncover corruption, it’s no wonder there are so few prosecutions.

Despite the Government’s promises to clean up Ireland's act, the last two years have shown that there is little political will to hold people to account. This seems clear from the failure to obtain criminal convictions arising from the systemic corruption exposed by the Mahon Tribunal or the wrongdoing highlighted in the final Moriarty Tribunal report. Likewise, controversy surrounding the ‘Anglo tapes’ has come and gone and the authorities have failed to even interview those involved.

Ireland’s failure to hold people to account for manifest wrongdoing in public office and business sends the message to Irish citizens as well as international investors, that in Ireland, as long as you are well-connected or powerful enough, you can lie, cheat, bribe and neglect your official duties with impunity."