Pet dog killed by hunting hounds

mariannewims

http://www.thejournal.ie/dog-attacked-hunt-1200991-Dec2013/

Just saw this very sad story following a hunt in Wicklow on Saturday.
Absolutely tragic that a family lost their pet under such horrific circumstances
I haven't hunted since I was a kid, but surely it's unusual for a pack to be able to enter a garden like this and attack a pet, were the huntsmen negligent or are there points at which it's impossible to bring the pack under control?

Bad PR for hunts around the country at the very least, and utter trauma for the poor pet dog's owners

gozunda

mariannewims wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/dog-attacked-hunt-1200991-Dec2013/

Just saw this very sad story following a hunt in Wicklow on Saturday.
Absolutely tragic that a family lost their pet under such horrific circumstances
I haven't hunted since I was a kid, but surely it's unusual for a pack to be able to enter a garden like this and attack a pet, were the huntsmen negligent or are there points at which it's impossible to bring the pack under control?

Bad PR for hunts around the country at the very least, and utter trauma for the poor pet dog's owners

Yes it's very sad about the dog but this story

It's already been done
Here

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057095185/1

lots of witch hunting, general misinformation and incitement to hatred type comments common in such reports.

mariannewims

To be honest, that's why I posted in Equestrian, because I'm genuinely curious how easy something like this can actually happen from people who hunt rather than reading reams of general anti-hunt opinion as is all I've found on this story so far.

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

Yes it's very sad about the dog but this story

It's already been done
Here

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057095185/1

lots of witch hunting, general misinformation and incitement to hatred type comments common in such reports.

Depends on your point of view. I have no knowledge of hunting and from my perspective it's a group of horse riders chasing an animal, I don't see the attraction but if that's what they like to do, leave them to it. provided the animal being chased doesn't suffer.

But the hunt has to take precautions that outsiders are protected and it has to be the organisers of these events that are held accountable.

The unfortunate hounds in this case should be put down, not their fault but if a domestic dog killed another dog that would probably be its faith, not something I would like to see happen. The organises should also be banned from organising any such event plus some criminal proceedings against them. Totally unacceptable that a family pet is killed.

gozunda

Gerry - it was Drag Hunt there was no horse riders chasing an animal in this instance. The Hounds actions appear to be a freak accident

Domestic dogs have been known to attack each other and other domestic animals both individually and in packs
Ever seen the damage dogs can do to a flock of sheep? Horrible but unfortunately it does occasionally happen. All dogs despite their domestic nature are predators.

In Drag Hunting a scent is followed - no animals are hunted.

In many cases groups hunt with hounds on foot - no horses. What is it about such misinformation and 'horse riders' that appear to bring out such violent and incorrect reactions. There is more cruel illegal forms of hunting than that undertaken by other forms of hunting.

Gerry T wrote: »

Depends on your point of view. I have no knowledge of hunting and from my perspective it's a group of horse riders chasing an animal, I don't see the attraction but if that's what they like to do, leave them to it. provided the animal being chased doesn't suffer.

But the hunt has to take precautions that outsiders are protected and it has to be the organisers of these events that are held accountable.

The unfortunate hounds in this case should be put down, not their fault but if a domestic dog killed another dog that would probably be its faith, not something I would like to see happen. The organises should also be banned from organising any such event plus some criminal proceedings against them. Totally unacceptable that a family pet is killed.

Gerry T

It doesn't matter if they were chasing a fox, deer, cloth. The issue is the dog attacked on it's own property. Yes dogs attack dogs and the more dangerous one's have to be muzzled. Why aren't hounds muzzled in drag hunts or all hunts when you think about it. That would have prevented the accident happening.

If a domestic dog kills a sheep and the farmer can proved the dog did it, would that dog be put down and would the dog owner have to pay compensation for the lost sheep.

I think the anti reaction is when hunts people think its ok that an animal can be killed in the name of sport. The fox is classed as vermin and that seems to make it ok. If they are vermin then the should be gotten rid of without causing any stress/pain to the animal, we owe them that before killing them.

convert

Can people please keep on topic on this thread and stop turning it into an anti-hunting thread. Regardless of one's opinion on hunting, people need to bear in mind that, as already pointed out, the hunt in question are a DRAG hunt, where no quarry is hunted. Also, I would strongly advise people from speculating on what happened, just in case any legal proceedings are to happen. This is not intended to stifle any reasoned discussion, but just a gentle reminder to keep on topic.

gozunda

It matters Because those hounds are not used for hunting animals as indicated in your first post.

It would appear to be a freak incident.

I am sure the authorities have been informed so there is little or need for a witch hunt etc

Many forms of Hunting are legal in this country. Many forms are illegal - I would suggest perhaps doing some research on how quickly different forms of hunting result in a quick and relatively painless kill.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but like the "Riders on horse back" hatred image many opinions out there are formed on sensationalism

It doesn't take away that a domestic animal was killed by other domestic animals - in sure that this will be dealt with in a similar way to other similar incidents by domestic animals

Gerry T wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they were chasing a fox, deer, cloth. The issue is the dog attacked on it's own property. Yes dogs attack dogs and the more dangerous one's have to be muzzled. Why aren't hounds muzzled in drag hunts or all hunts when you think about it. That would have prevented the accident happening.

If a domestic dog kills a sheep and the farmer can proved the dog did it, would that dog be put down and would the dog owner have to pay compensation for the lost sheep.

I think the anti reaction is when hunts people think its ok that an animal can be killed in the name of sport. The fox is classed as vermin and that seems to make it ok. If they are vermin then the should be gotten rid of without causing any stress/pain to the animal, we owe them that before killing them.

convert

Mod hat off: A lot of dogs have been killed by other dogs, which were not hunting hounds, and breeds which are/were not required to be muzzled. These 'killers' are also frequently family pets, and may have turned on other dogs in the 'family', or on strange dogs which they come across, either on their own land, the other dogs land, or public property. It's important to bear in mind that any dog can be a killer, family pet, stray or hunting hound.

mariannewims

Sorry Convert, feel free to lock if you need to.

I just genuinely wanted to know how difficult it is to keep a pack under control and whether the huntsmen in this case were negligent. Because surely in all hunting, houses and farms with other animals about are passed and yet the hounds don't just let loose and attack anything that they pass, I'm curious what happened in this case.

But the reason I asked here was to avoid general hunting-bashing and get the opinions of those more in the know

Qualitymark

gozunda wrote: »

so there is little or need for a witch hunt etc

Is witch hunting legal in Ireland?

convert

Marianne, that wasn't aimed at you in any way, nor a criticism for starting the thread. Given that hunting is such an emotive and divisive topic, I just wanted to remind users to keep on topic rather than have the thread, which could stimulate some good discussion and debate, descend into the usual chaos and ending up being closed.

convert

Qualitymark, comments like that are unhelpful.
Final warning for people to keep on topic and post relevant and reasoned comments. Infractions and/or bans will be issued from now on.

fits

It shouldn't have happened.
If one of my dogs were attacked in my garden there is no question, I would be taking legal action at least.

Hunts have a collective responsibility to have competent staff, to ensure their hounds are well trained and managed and to minimise disturbance to landowners and general public.

IF something happens, it should be addressed well before the Facebook witch hunt stage too. The level of engagement with this family doesn't seem to have been very good or effective considering they didn't even know it was a drag hunt.

gozunda

fits wrote: »

It shouldn't have happened.
If one of my dogs were attacked in my garden there is no question, I would be taking legal action at least.

Hunts have a collective responsibility to have competent staff, to ensure their hounds are well trained and managed and to minimise disturbance to landowners and general public.

IF something happens, it should be addressed well before the Facebook witch hunt stage too. The level of engagement with this family doesn't seem to have been very good or effective considering they didn't even know it was a drag hunt.

Agreed that it shouldn't have happened

But to place this in perspective

It was a freak incident. The level of general hunt bashing is quite staggering. There is no apparent nationwide outbreak of pet savagery as far as I am aware.

Animals do sometimes get away from their owners / handlers and understandably animals do not understand property rights

It is of note that the law of animal trespass is something largely unallied to law on human trespass. I suggest people who are interested look it up.

As for any domestic animal attack on another domestic animal the relevant authorities will I am sure deal with this as is required.

fits

Would you not be livid if this happened to your own dog gozunda?

I agree that all perspective has been lost. People going around in groups on horseback seem to be rage-inducing in others for some reason. Horse riding and hunting has a major image problem.

Gerry T

To me it does seem very straight forward, have the dogs muzzled in drag hunts. Would that not be the safe thing to do ? If those dogs were muzzled we wouldn't be having this debate.
Why can't the Hunt organisers come up with this sort of idea themselves, is it that it goes against the nature of the hunt ?

fits

Hounds won't be able to scent with a muzzle on. Its hard enough without!

Gerry T

fits wrote: »

Hounds won't be able to scent with a muzzle on. Its hard enough without!

Would this work ?

http://www.gundogsupply.com/omnipet-kwik-klip-nylon-muzzle.html

or one of these

http://www.morrco.com/morwirbasdog.html

gozunda

fits wrote: »

Would you not be livid if this happened to your own dog gozunda?

I agree that all perspective has been lost. People going around in groups on horseback seem to be rage-inducing in others for some reason. Horse riding and hunting has a major image problem.

I live near a busy road and an area where dogs regularly are stolen. For these reasons I do not allow my dogs access to the front of the house / road for obvious liability / safety issues.

My dogs are safely fenced in and other dogs / people cannot get at them. It's called responsible ownership. Dogs do not understand these things so we as owners are obliged to minimise potential problems. Unfortunately accidents do happen - a gate gets left open, dog gets out - savages fido next door / gets hit by a car ( and you get sued).
If any of the above happened and I lost a dog then yes I would be very upset but as an accident haven taken all possible precautions there would be little I could change.

Tbh the number of houses that now keep one or often more dogs with unrestricted access to the road is quite unbelievable. Imo this is a much greater hazard than hounds. In my own experience Hounds (with huntsman) regularly go pass where I live and todate I have had no reason for complaint.

The hilarious thing about people on horseback is that anyone who rides is somehow considered upper class etc
In my area the people who ride to hunt are composed of ordinary working people including farmers and locals.

I believe it is a hang up / steryoptype that people regularly trot out and is quite odd. You don't get the same reaction of people riding for example big or expensive motorbikes.

To change peoples inbuilt bias and prejudices is a difficult thing to do especially where some still perceive it as a class issue ...

gozunda

Gerry T wrote: »

Would this work ?

http://www.gundogsupply.com/omnipet-kwik-klip-nylon-muzzle.html

or one of these

http://www.morrco.com/morwirbasdog.html

I presume that this type of thing would have to be enforced for all dogs - considering all dogs may attack other domestic animals in given circumstances. I wish you the best of luck with that.

John_Rambo

gozunda wrote: »

My dogs are safely fenced in and other dogs / people cannot get at them. It's called responsible ownership.

Do you think the huntsmen practice responsible ownership?

Who do you think was more irresponsible? The owners of the dog that was killed or the owners of the fox hounds?

convert

John_Rambo wrote: »

the owners of the fox hounds?

Please see my post above re. this - they were not fox hounds.

John_Rambo

convert wrote: »

Please see my post above re. this - they were not fox hounds.

Whatever... splitting hairs, can you answer the two simple questions?

Do you think the huntsmen practice responsible ownership?

Who do you think was more irresponsible? The owners of the dog that was killed or the owners of the pack of dogs?

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

I presume that this type of thing would have to be enforced for all dogs - considering all dogs may attack other domestic animals in given circumstances. I wish you the best of luck with that.

Dangerous dogs have to wear a muzzle and on a lead in public places at all times, not all dogs have to wear one, I presume because the risk or danger they present is at an acceptable level.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_dogs.html

Now if you ask me would I think a pack of dogs chasing a scent with the presumed intent on killing the animal, present a reasonable risk to others. I would say yes. In this case the dogs should wear a muzzle.

That doesn't mean every dog needs one, that's just a little over reacting

mariannewims

I'm amazed at the level of hate amongst my facebook friends directed towards anyone on horseback following this story. I've pointed out numerous times that the hunt in question are a drag hunt and don't actually quarry or kill any animals but they don't seem to care. They're a hunt, and that's what seems to matter whether they target foxes or just follow a scent. There seems to be an awful image of huntsmen as rich thugs on horseback exploiting innocent animals.
I'm flabbergasted, our hunts have always appeared much less a class issue and more normal farmers and equestrians. Since when did anyone on horseback become a hate figure?! Most horse owners and riders I know are normal hardworking people who can barely pay the bills, never go on holidays or have a night on the town and yet are seen as privileged toffs!

cornholiooo

Its a terrible thing to lose a family pet in such a manner, in essence a member of the greater family unit.
Could it not as easily have been a child, god forbid.??
How was such a thing allowed to happen.

convert

John_Rambo wrote: »

Whatever... splitting hairs, can you answer the two simple questions?

Nope, it's just paying attention to detail and accuracy. I've already asked people to ensure that the information being posted is accurate

As for the second part of that phrase: If I'm going to mod the thread I can't engage in the debate.

John_Rambo

convert wrote: »

If I'm going to mod the thread I can't engage in the debate.

It's two simple questions, not a phrase, and you seemed perfectly able to join the debate in your eight posts on this thread that had nothing to do with modding. In one post you inferred it was the fault of the dead dogs owners that the dog was killed because they were irresponsible. That's engaging. Maybe you could take your

convert wrote: »

Mod hat off

again?

convert

John_Rambo wrote: »

It's two simple questions, not a phrase, and you seemed perfectly able to join the debate in your eight posts on this thread that had nothing to do with modding. In one post you inferred it was the fault of the dead dogs owners that the dog was killed because they were irresponsible. That's engaging. Maybe you could take youragain?

John_Rambo: all but one of my 6 posts have related to modding (the post from which you quoted my 'mod hat off' phrase). I did not infer anything regarding who was responsible for the tragic incident, and since this thread began to descend into chaos, I have not engaged in the discussion.

If you have any further comments regarding modding, as per boards.ie rules, can you please take it to PM.

Final warning to all users to keep on topic.

John_Rambo

convert wrote: »

John_Rambo: all but one of my 6 posts have related to modding (the post from which you quoted my 'mod hat off' phrase). I did not infer anything regarding who was responsible for the tragic incident, and since this thread began to descend into chaos, I have not engaged in the discussion.

If you have any further comments regarding modding, as per boards.ie rules, can you please take it to PM.

Final warning to all users to keep on topic.

Apologies to convert. I mixed him/her up with another poster.








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