Pet dog killed by hunting hounds

Imhof Tank

8000 likes on the facebook protest page now.

Very curious if there will be any protesters at the Brays meet tomorrow - there hasn't been any talk of that on FB which is a little surprising.

gozunda

John_Rambo wrote: »

Do you think the huntsmen practice responsible ownership?

Who do you think was more irresponsible? The owners of the dog that was killed or the owners of the fox hounds?

I will say it again...

As in many inter animal attack scenarios this appears to have been a freak incident. The level of general hunt bashing is quite staggering. There is no apparent nationwide outbreak of pet savagery as far as I am aware.

Animals do sometimes get away from their owners / handlers and understandably animals do not understand property rights

As in any dog or animal that gets away from their handler - accidents can happen. My responsibility is to the safety of my animal. As I live near a road and there have been plenty of dog thefts in the area I make sure that my dogs are safe. I can do no more.

And to answer your question yes I my experience most huntsmen including those who shoot are responsible animal owners. I am sure the relevant authorities are more than equipped to deal with what happened without it been bandwagoned for other purposes.

In this case the facts are that Scent hounds used in the Drag hunt managed to get ahead of their handler.

As in this incident - Would you genuinely have everyone whose dog slips a lead/ runs off or strays rounded up or is there another agenda?

John_Rambo

gozunda wrote: »

As in this incident - Would you genuinely have everyone whose dog slips a lead/ runs off or strays rounded up or is there another agenda?

No, that wouldn't be workable in rural Ireland and not everyone that asks a question has an agenda gozunda. I was trying to ascertain if you felt the hunt was in any way to blame when it came to this incident.

Whatever way you look at it, it's a disaster for hunts all over the country who already have a bad PR image and don't seem to be keen to improve it.

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

I will say it again...

As in many inter animal attack scenarios this appears to have been a freak incident. The level of general hunt bashing is quite staggering. There is no apparent nationwide outbreak of pet savagery as far as I am aware.

Animals do sometimes get away from their owners / handlers and understandably animals do not understand property rights.

As in any dog or animal that gets away from their handler - accidents can happen. My responsibility is to the safety of my animal. ........................ As in this incident - Would you genuinely have everyone whose dog slips a lead/ runs off or strays rounded up or is there another agenda?

Just looking at a couple of points you make. I agree there are freak incidents, but getting a pack of dogs together and having them chase a scent with the intent of killing is not in the same category of a freak incident. It's more like asking for trouble, how is a dog to know what animal it avoids and what animal it kills ?

Yes Animals don't understand property rights and that's all the more reason why the hunt has to take extra precautions that no person/animal gets hurt.

Yes your responsibility is to the safety of your animal but you have a greater responsibility that your animal doesn't injure others.

A dog slipping a lead or strays is an accident and that's understandable. You seem to miss the point that this was an organised event.

gozunda

Gerry T wrote: »

Just looking at a couple of points you make. I agree there are freak incidents, but getting a pack of dogs together and having them chase a scent with the intent of killing is not in the same category of a freak incident. It's more like asking for trouble, how is a dog to know what animal it avoids and what animal it kills ?

Yes Animals don't understand property rights and that's all the more reason why the hunt has to take extra precautions that no person/animal gets hurt.

Yes your responsibility is to the safety of your animal but you have a greater responsibility that your animal doesn't injure others.

A dog slipping a lead or strays is an accident and that's understandable. You seem to miss the point that this was an organised event.

In your very first point you are incorrect - the hounds Do Not follow a scent to make a killing - it's a Drag Hunt. How many times does this have to explained. It is quite evident that the amount of attempted misinformation in this thread is staggering. It says everything as far as I am concerned.

gozunda

John_Rambo wrote: »

No, that wouldn't be workable in rural Ireland and not everyone that asks a question has an agenda gozunda. I was trying to ascertain if you felt the hunt was in any way to blame when it came to this incident.

Whatever way you look at it, it's a disaster for hunts all over the country who already have a bad PR image and don't seem to be keen to improve it.

As I have replied above the amount of scaremongering being put forward over one single incident is intentional in my opinion. Just look at the amount of misinformation being put forward.

Like all animal owners we have responsibilities and when things go wrong as in this case then the normal procedures are applied.

It's no more a 'disaster for all the hunts in the country' than it is for all the 'dog owners in the country" to whom similar incidents may happen and their dog or other animal may cause unintentional harm. I will say that word again for anyone who doesn't get this - unintentional. End of story. Just stop trying to make more of this than it warrants for the sake of all animal owners or the consequences will be draconian laws that will do nothing for animals and their owners whether it is someone with one dog or a pack of dogs.

kopfan77

gozunda wrote: »

In your very first point you are incorrect - the hounds Do Not follow a scent to make a killing - it's a Drag Hunt. How many times does this have to explained. It is quite evident that the amount of attempted misinformation in this thread is staggering. It says everything as far as I am concerned.

What happens if the hunt hounds actually manage to corner/catch whatever animal they follow the scent of. You say they dont follow to makle a killing, so what does happen when they come upon the animal they are hunting?

fits

I think this will die down very quickly. Liking a page on Facebook does not equate to action. only 3000 of the 8000 likers signed the petition. And even a lot who did like the page were completely unknowledgable and misinformed.

In my view bray hunt club have the lion's share of culpability but if the dog had free unsupervised access to a public road, her owners have questions to answer also.

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

In your very first point you are incorrect - the hounds Do Not follow a scent to make a killing - it's a Drag Hunt. How many times does this have to explained. It is quite evident that the amount of attempted misinformation in this thread is staggering. It says everything as far as I am concerned.

So you think the dogs chasing a scent don't have the intent of killing ? the hunts people may know its just a drag but not the dogs !
You don't have to keep saying it, but you do. As if it being a drag makes any difference. Well then, if it were just a drag and no kill intended, how did a dog get killed ?

gozunda

kopfan77 wrote: »

What happens if the hunt hounds actually manage to corner/catch whatever animal they follow the scent of. You say they dont follow to makle a killing, so what does happen when they come upon the animal they are hunting?

Btw many forms of hunting in Ireland are legal and I hope they remain that way.

I would suggest going and learning about all forms of hunting. There are some very knowledgable people who have already posted in other threads.

I repeat again in this instance there was no animal being followed by the hounds. The hounds follow an artificial scent trail. It is indeed unfortunate that those with their own agenda, in these matters attempt to confuse half truths and fiction being which are then put out as fact.

foreverme99

Shocking. Thank god it wasn't a young child playing in the garden or with his pet dog

JillyQ

Imhof Tank wrote: »

8000 likes on the facebook protest page now.

Very curious if there will be any protesters at the Brays meet tomorrow - there hasn't been any talk of that on FB which is a little surprising.

Just as a matter of curiousity did anyone protest at the meet yesterday?

TheFarrier

Gerry T wrote: »

So you think the dogs chasing a scent don't have the intent of killing ? the hunts people may know its just a drag but not the dogs !
You don't have to keep saying it, but you do. As if it being a drag makes any difference. Well then, if it were just a drag and no kill intended, how did a dog get killed ?

That's a good point, but while hounds following a drag scent may have every intention of killing their quarry, the fact remains that in a drag hunt scenario there is no quarry to kill, the scent is an artificial one laid by the hunt for the hounds to follow.

fits

foreverme99 wrote: »

Shocking. Thank god it wasn't a young child playing in the garden or with his pet dog

so many people have said this but attacking a dog does not mean attacking a child. Hounds can tell the difference and have a good record. I have never heard of such an incident.

foreverme99

fits wrote: »

so many people have said this but attacking a dog does not mean attacking a child. Hounds can tell the difference and have a good record. I have never heard of such an incident.

Thanks for clearing that up. But that does not make it ok either. My dog is like a child to me, and I love him as much, I would be devestated if this happened my dog.

fits

foreverme99 wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. But that does not make it ok either. My dog is like a child to me, and I love him as much, I would be devestated if this happened my dog.

so would I

Gerry T

TheFarrier wrote: »

That's a good point, but while hounds following a drag scent may have every intention of killing their quarry, the fact remains that in a drag hunt scenario there is no quarry to kill, the scent is an artificial one laid by the hunt for the hounds to follow.

I have no objection to people riding around and chasing a scent. How the dog in question got attacked is difficult to say. Maybe he crossed the scent trail and that led the hounds to him.
This is what I believe has to be addressed. Without getting into the rights and wrongs of hunting, its possible that innocent bystanders can get hurt by these chasing dogs, and I think this is what people are getting worked up about. The dogs blood was up and they were chasing for the kill. As someone else pointed out, what if a child was playing with the dog that was attacked, luckily that didn't happen.
This is not one person out walking a dog, which goes out of control and attacks, that happens and its unfortunate. And in most cases the dogs handlers will get control of the situation in seconds.
This is a pack of dogs, which present a far greater threat. So a muzzle can easily be used. It won't stop the drag hunt and it protects others. Its such a cheap and fast fix to the problem. Maybe its not practical but the others arguing against this proposal just say I'm over reacting or anti hunting. This is not about hunting. Its about a pack of loose dogs that have any I'm sure will again kill -- can anyone say, with 100% confidence that it can't be a child next time.

fits

As far as I know the dog was out on the public road outside her house. Hunt were making their way back to trailers past the dogs house and the hounds chased the dog into her garden and attacked her. The hounds weren't hunting at all at the time. They were trotting home on the road. Dog probably tried to defend her property etc...

gozunda

Gerry T wrote: »

So you think the dogs chasing a scent don't have the intent of killing ? the hunts people may know its just a drag but not the dogs !
You don't have to keep saying it, but you do. As if it being a drag makes any difference. Well then, if it were just a drag and no kill intended, how did a dog get killed ?

So by your logic dogs used for lets say drug enforcement who detect a scent will immediately jump on a person carrying drugs and maul them to death? The dog doesn't know, that's what training is about, they are trained from puppies to do what they do - follow a scent.

There have been plenty of instances of quite nice domestic dogs attacking and killing other domestic animals. Fortunately these are accidents as in the current case. How does an animal get killed in these incidences - because such things unfortunately happen. Dogs were all originally pack predators - and in the case of domestic dogs killing sheep may revert to this instinct. It doesn't mean that all dogs must be rounded up and muzzled because of an instance of arbarant behaviour. Neither does It doesn't mean that there is massive outbreak of pet savaging going on. What is really going on is that this story is as usual being used for other purposes and appears to keep degenerating into general hunt bashing that is fashionable even where it is blatently misinformed.

kopfan77

gozunda wrote: »

Btw many forms of hunting in Ireland are legal and I hope they remain that way.

I would suggest going and learning about all forms of hunting. There are some very knowledgable people who have already posted in other threads.

I repeat again in this instance there was no animal being followed by the hounds. The hounds follow an artificial scent trail. It is indeed unfortunate that those with their own agenda, in these matters attempt to confuse half truths and fiction being which are then put out as fact.

Why quote me with your little mini rant here. I was simply asking you what does happen in an instance when the dogs do encounter the animal they are on the trail of in a "Drag Hunt". I figured you would be able to enlighten me as you repeatedly mention that this is different to the average joe's impression of a hunt....if you could answer my original question I'd appreciate it

kopfan77

Gozunda you can disregard my request for clarification. The Farrier answered very well the question which you skirted around for me thanks. it appears that there is no animal to kill in a drag hunt as it is a totally artificial scent

fits

It can be hard to remember that most people have little idea of what hunting or drag hunting actually entail. And as John Rambo said, the pr is desperate. Could definitely be worked on.

gozunda

kopfan77 wrote: »

Gozunda you can disregard my request for clarification. The Farrier answered very well the question which you skirted around for me thanks. it appears that there is no animal to kill in a drag hunt as it is a totally artificial scent

I believe I had already made it clear when I said "in this instance there was no animal being followed by the hounds". if you read thru the thread you will see that it has been reiterated numerous times that no animal is being hunted to be killed in a drag hunt.

Hence I suggested looking up what a Drag Hunt' actually is. Unfortunately as I said the amount of misinformation "your ref - mini rant" on here does not help. I am glad you figured it out anyway.

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

So by your logic dogs used for lets say drug enforcement who detect a scent will immediately jump on a person carrying drugs and maul them to death? The dog doesn't know, that's what training is about, they are trained from puppies to do what they do - follow a scent.

There have been plenty of instances of quite nice domestic dogs attacking and killing other domestic animals. Fortunately these are accidents as in the current case. How does an animal get killed in these incidences - because such things unfortunately happen. Dogs were all originally pack predators - and in the case of domestic dogs killing sheep may revert to this instinct. It doesn't mean that all dogs must be rounded up and muzzled because of an instance of arbarant behaviour. Neither does It doesn't mean that there is massive outbreak of pet savaging going on. What is really going on is that this story is as usual being used for other purposes and appears to keep degenerating into general hunt bashing that is fashionable even where it is blatently misinformed.

You really are missing the point or you choose to ignore it. No point in debating your drug enforcement analogy, just doesn't make sense. In one case a dog chasing an animal, which he will kill on instinct. The other sniffing out an inanimate object for the reward of a bouncy ball ??
There is a risk in organised hunting (incl drag) where innocent animals get killed. So rather than banning drag hunting reduce the risk -- get the dogs to wear muzzles. The drag hunt continues, people see that the organisers are being responsible and the image of hunting improves. It lifts from "we don't give a sh1t what anyone thinks, we have being doing this for hundreds of years so you can all fuik off with yourselves" to "yes there are risks and we have identified what we can and continually do what's possible to reduce the risk".

gozunda

Gerry T wrote: »

You really are missing the point or you choose to ignore it. No point in debating your drug enforcement analogy, just doesn't make sense. In one case a dog chasing an animal, which he will kill on instinct. The other sniffing out an inanimate object for the reward of a bouncy ball ??
There is a risk in organised hunting (incl drag) where innocent animals get killed. So rather than banning drag hunting reduce the risk -- get the dogs to wear muzzles. The drag hunt continues, people see that the organisers are being responsible and the image of hunting improves. It lifts from "we don't give a sh1t what anyone thinks, we have being doing this for hundreds of years so you can all fuik off with yourselves" to "yes there are risks and we have identified what we can and continually do what's possible to reduce the risk".

I will have to reiterate (again) that there're was no no chasing an animal for the purposes of killing it in this type of hunt. Like the drug enforcement digs they are trained to follow a specific scent. Often aniseed is used to lay a trail.

Thanks for the choice language you chose to put in the mouths of other unfortunately it is in my experience untrue. No more than those who walk their dogs and having being doing it for hundreds of years and don't give a proverbial

The point you missed is that this was an unfortunate once of incident.

fits

Gerry T wrote: »

-- get the dogs to wear muzzles. .

To think hounds can wear muzzles and still hunt is to fundamentally misunderstand how hounds operate. They need the full capacity of their nose to follow a scent (and one hound on its own is not capable of this) and they need to communicate with each other by 'giving tongue' A muzzle would completely impair this.

Imhof Tank

JillyQ wrote: »

Just as a matter of curiousity did anyone protest at the meet yesterday?

Absolutely nobody protesting and we had a great 4 hours on Saturday. Former huntsman was out (not in livery but obviously there to help out the new man). Neither of the whips from last week out - one apparently badly injured by dog bites incurred in the incident, the other suffering from post traumatic stress disorder.:rolleyes:

Don't know what is says about the facebook generation - I didn't really expect protests but the fact that not a single one of the supporters on the FB page even suggested doing something proactive was amazing. Very easy to sign an online petition or post an online rant from the comfort of your armchair.

Gerry T

gozunda wrote: »

I will have to reiterate (again) that there're was no no chasing an animal for the purposes of killing it in this type of hunt. Like the drug enforcement digs they are trained to follow a specific scent. Often aniseed is used to lay a trail.

Thanks for the choice language you chose to put in the mouths of other unfortunately it is in my experience untrue. No more than those who walk their dogs and having being doing it for hundreds of years and don't give a proverbial

The point you missed is that this was an unfortunate once of incident.

As you say I will have to reiterate (again) that the dogs don't know that its a drag. They are out chasing an scent for the kill all be it a nicely scented fox with aniseed perfume !

The language used is the image hunts people have, it may or may not be true but that's the image portrayed.

You keep comparing what happened to where one domestic dog attacks another. This are no parallels. These dogs were out to kill. And I don't need reminding it was a drag, the dogs don't know that.

I'm sure there are many more cases of hunting dogs mistakenly killing a pet, I doubt this is an isolate incident.

Gerry T

fits wrote: »

To think hounds can wear muzzles and still hunt is to fundamentally misunderstand how hounds operate. They need the full capacity of their nose to follow a scent (and one hound on its own is not capable of this) and they need to communicate with each other by 'giving tongue' A muzzle would completely impair this.

Thanks,
I asked earlier in the thread could muzzles work but that was never answered. I didn't realise that the dogs 'giving tongue' which is impressive.
I though one of these might have worked, or a specifically designed one, but it sounds like no one has come up with one. I could see a risk to the hound snagging the basket, but sure that's the risk and better the hound gets hurt than an innocent.
http://www.morrco.com/morwirbasdog.html
I'm not against drag hunting and don't have an agenda here other that to try point out there are risks having hounds running in packs. Only for the strong hunt culture in Ireland I would suggest after a couple of pets got killed that Drag Hunts would have been banned.

gozunda

Gerry T wrote: »

As you say I will have to reiterate (again) that the dogs don't know that its a drag. They are out chasing an scent for the kill all be it a nicely scented fox with aniseed perfume !

The language used is the image hunts people have, it may or may not be true but that's the image portrayed.

You keep comparing what happened to where one domestic dog attacks another. This are no parallels. These dogs were out to kill. And I don't need reminding it was a drag, the dogs don't know that.

I'm sure there are many more cases of hunting dogs mistakenly killing a pet, I doubt this is an isolate incident.

Sigh...No the dogs were not out to kill. They were on their way back by all accounts, weren't following the scent. They got away from their handler in an once off incident. Do dogs that get away from domestic situations and kill sheep for example - are they trained to do that - no? Well guess what it happens. Making a Christmas cake out of it ain't going to help any dog owner despite an obvious bias against those 'on horseback'. How do you feel about gun dogs or other traditional forms of hunting that use dogs?

Drag packs are trained to follow a scent and not to kill whilst hunting. Unfortunately in this incident a pack of dogs on their way back (& not hunting) came across another dog and do what dogs often do. - fight. It's sad, it shouldn't have happened but it does happen even with the best behaved doggies out there.
There are many cases of domestic dogs killing other animals and we don't hear about many of those either.

I note you are determined (to use a pun) to keep barking up the one wrong tree. Best of luck with that.