Coaching for Sunday service during school day, what are the rules?

quenching

Can anyone advise on the current Dept of Education rules that govern primary school children being encouraged to attend and participate in a religious service held on a Sunday? In addition, time during the school day is being spent practicing for their role in said service, those attending are being taken to the church during the school day to practice in situ, while those not attending are split between other classes in the school and given workbooks to keep them busy as their class teacher is the one taking the participating children to the church.

This is nothing to do with communion/confirmation but some advent thing this month. Its a Church of Ireland school if thats relevant.

I have my own opinion on the subject but its the hard facts I'm interested in, current guidelines as laid down by Dept of Education etc, pointers to relevant documents would be most helpful.

Peregrinus

An issue of that kind isn't a matter for the Department; it's a matter for the Board of Management. Under Education Act 1998 s. 15 its the duty of the board to manage the school.

Under s. 15(2)(a) they have to manage " in accordance with the policies determined by the Minister from time to time", but when it comes to matters of religion Ministers have tended to lay down policy with a light hand - separation of church and state, and all that.

There's a constitutional guarantee of the right to attend a publicly-funded school without receiving religious instruction (art. 42.2.4) and the Minister has made policy to reflect this in the "Rules for National Schools', para. 69(2)(a) of which says that "no pupil shall receive, or be present at, any religious instruction of which his parents or guardian disapprove". The Rules don't say what other arrangements have to be made for pupils who are withdrawn from religious instruction and, so far as I can see, the Minister has issued no other policy dealing with the question, so it's up to the board of management (subject, of course, to generally applicable duties like keeping the kids safe, protecting their welfare, etc, etc that would apply no matter what the kids were doing).

quenching

Peregrinus wrote: »

An issue of that kind isn't a matter for the Department; it's a matter for the Board of Management. Under Education Act 1998 s. 15 its the duty of the board to manage the school.

Under s. 15(2)(a) they have to manage " in accordance with the policies determined by the Minister from time to time", but when it comes to matters of religion Ministers have tended to lay down policy with a light hand - separation of church and state, and all that.

There's a constitutional guarantee of the right to attend a publicly-funded school without receiving religious instruction (art. 42.2.4) and the Minister has made policy to reflect this in the "Rules for National Schools', para. 69(2)(a) of which says that "no pupil shall receive, or be present at, any religious instruction of which his parents or guardian disapprove". The Rules don't say what other arrangements have to be made for pupils who are withdrawn from religious instruction and, so far as I can see, the Minister has issued no other policy dealing with the question, so it's up to the board of management (subject, of course, to generally applicable duties like keeping the kids safe, protecting their welfare, etc, etc that would apply no matter what the kids were doing).

Thanks for that information, most helpful. As the BOM in question is chaired by the rector of the church the children were asked to attend I can see any queries put to it being viewed in a very biased manner. However, I'll contact the BOM and the PTA and see how they respond.

lazygal

It could be an oversight or not wanting children to be left out. I know of a similar situation where a teacher's well meaning inclusion of a child in indoctrination had to be addressed with a principal, who also didn't see an issue until it was pointed out.

Peregrinus

I think quenchings problem is not that the non-religious children are wrongly being included in the religious exercises; they are not participating in them, but no educationally useful or productive alternative is being offered to them.

Peregrinus

On reflection, the real issue here is, what arrangements should a school make for children who, for whatever reason, are not participating in the activity which is currently occupying the rest of their class?

In this particular instance, the activity concerned is a religious exercise, and the children are not participating because their parents have withdrawn them, as is their right, but that seems to me to be irrelevant. The same issue would arise if the activity was a sporting one, and some children could not participate for physical or medical reasons. Or you could think of a number of other scenarios which could give rise to the same basis problem.

I don't think that changes the answer, though. Handling a situation like that is very much the province of those who manage the school, and involves juggling a number of practical considerations like staff availability, classroom availability, etc. If the Department did issue a policy on this it woudl probably be in very general terms, mentioning the overriding duty of care to all students and the educational function of the school, and leaving it up to managers to work out the practical details as best they can.

quenching

Peregrinus wrote: »

On reflection, the real issue here is, what arrangements should a school make for children who, for whatever reason, are not participating in the activity which is currently occupying the rest of their class?

In this particular instance, the activity concerned is a religious exercise, and the children are not participating because their parents have withdrawn them, as is their right, but that seems to me to be irrelevant. The same issue would arise if the activity was a sporting one, and some children could not participate for physical or medical reasons. Or you could think of a number of other scenarios which could give rise to the same basis problem.

I don't think that changes the answer, though. Handling a situation like that is very much the province of those who manage the school, and involves juggling a number of practical considerations like staff availability, classroom availability, etc. If the Department did issue a policy on this it woudl probably be in very general terms, mentioning the overriding duty of care to all students and the educational function of the school, and leaving it up to managers to work out the practical details as best they can.

I agree it is indeed difficult to organise, more so in a small school with limited teachers/classrooms. In my case we have not withdrawn our child from religious education at all, its a fact that a huge number of people believe in a God, so I think its important to learn about all religions, he can decide himself once he's capable of making an informed decision if he wants to be religious or not. At the moment he says he doesn't believe and has logical explanations as to why, which tally with his age. He may change his mind later and that's fine with me. My issue, and I'm not sure how big the issue is yet, is that his class are now being asked to "perform" in church services and the school has indicated that they would like to increase the frequency of this participation. I'm a little concerned that this is taking up too much school time but for the moment I'll hold off complaining and see what happens.

Peregrinus

Are you OK with him attending religious instruction, but not OK with him participating in the religious services?

Or are you letting him participate in the services for the time being, but feeling a bit uneasy about it and considering withdrawing him?

quenching

Attending religious instruction as part of his education is fine with us and him, the school are aware that he doesn't believe in God and that we feel its important to learn about something that's a big part of a lot of peoples lives. The ethos of the school is COI with a stated acceptance of other beliefs or none at all. He's 9 and very capable of expressing his opinion on the subject, limited of course to how a 9 year old can understand such things. He says he enjoys the storytelling aspect of religion which mostly boils down to basic morality and good/bad but seems very capable of sifting out the more unbelievable aspects of such tales. I don't doubt for a moment that his lack of belief is influenced by mine to some extent which is part of the reason we accept that learning about all religions is to be encouraged, I don't want to "indoctrinate" him into not believing either.

We are not letting him participate in the church services at the moment, this involves students reading prayers, singing hymns, etc. as I think this is crossing the line regarding general education about religion. He isn't bothered that he's not participating, probably a bit relieved as he's not a natural performer, but would do so if we asked him to. Were also trying to be careful no to make too big a deal out of his non-participation, either with him or his classmates/teacher/school. Some assemblies have the rector in attendance which my son attends and at which prayers are said, he just stays quiet and respectful of others.

My stance may seem contradictory but it can be difficult to reconcile what I would like to see happen and what is practical and fair. Making a big deal out of something that the child isn't too concerned about might be counterproductive.

gaynorvader

quenching wrote: »

Attending religious instruction as part of his education is fine with us and him, the school are aware that he doesn't believe in God and that we feel its important to learn about something that's a big part of a lot of peoples lives. The ethos of the school is COI with a stated acceptance of other beliefs or none at all. He's 9 and very capable of expressing his opinion on the subject, limited of course to how a 9 year old can understand such things. He says he enjoys the storytelling aspect of religion which mostly boils down to basic morality and good/bad but seems very capable of sifting out the more unbelievable aspects of such tales. I don't doubt for a moment that his lack of belief is influenced by mine to some extent which is part of the reason we accept that learning about all religions is to be encouraged, I don't want to "indoctrinate" him into not believing either.

We are not letting him participate in the church services at the moment, this involves students reading prayers, singing hymns, etc. as I think this is crossing the line regarding general education about religion. He isn't bothered that he's not participating, probably a bit relieved as he's not a natural performer, but would do so if we asked him to. Were also trying to be careful no to make too big a deal out of his non-participation, either with him or his classmates/teacher/school. Some assemblies have the rector in attendance which my son attends and at which prayers are said, he just stays quiet and respectful of others.

My stance may seem contradictory but it can be difficult to reconcile what I would like to see happen and what is practical and fair. Making a big deal out of something that the child isn't too concerned about might be counterproductive.

As far as I can make out, and correct me if I'm wrong, you take issue with the amount of school time devoted to this religious service. I think it's a fair concern, and one that religious parents might share. Maybe ask around the other parents, see if they have similar concerns and maybe this time could be moved so it takes up the afternoons at the end of the school day (say 1-4pm instead of 10-2pm or whatever it is now). I don't think there's a department of education policy prohibiting this though as it's optional.

Peregrinus

Nothing contradictory there. You’re quite happy to have your child learn about religious beliefs, to have him understand what religion is, etc; you just don’t want him participating to the extent of formally practising religion, as opposed to learning about it. Or, more accurately, you don’t want him put in a position where he’s required or expected to participate; from what you say if he chose to participate you wouldn’t prevent him. Seems very reasonable to me.

I think the problem you have is this; there is actually some educational value in what the rest of the class is doing. To the extent that religion is a way of living, you learn things about it by observing it or participating in it in a way that you won’t learn simply from studying it. Of course I understand that, this value notwithstanding, participating is still crossing a line that you are uncomfortable about. But, leaving a better understanding of religion aside, there is educational value in singing in a choir, reading to an assembly, etc; and that value doesn’t disappear if the choir is singing hymns, or the assembly is a congregation. Whereas you feel that there’s minimal educational value in sitting at the back of somebody else’s class, being given a workbook and told to keep quiet.

So your child would paying an educational price in opting out of the religious exercises the rest of the class participates in. That price might be minimised if a more productive or challenging way of spending the time were offered to those who do not participate, but that doesn’t seem likely to happen. Even if it did, it might reduce the problem rather than solving it. Even if your child was doing something more useful with his time that toying with a workbook, he’d still be missing out on singing in the choir, or performing in other ways.

But I don’t think there’s a neat solution to this. Even if you wanted to, you couldn’t insist that the religious exercises of the class be stripped of all educational value, so there will always be some cost to withdrawing your child from them. On the other hand, there is the affirmative educational value of teaching your child by your stance on this of the importance of living in accordance with your convictions, and of the fact that different people make different choices according to their values, and this is not always easy because sometimes there is a cost to it.

I Heart Internet

In terms of "too much time spent preparing for religious services", I've never really seen the problem. The type of activity that is likely involved - singing, reading, (dancing?), history, story-telling, (arts and craft?) are perfectly compatible with a 9 year-olds school day. It's all a learning experience and the trip to the local church is, no doubt, a hoot for children in classrooms all day.

I've never really bought the idea that one must believe in God/a particular faith to learn or enjoy religious education - OP seems to be of the same mindset, I think (unless I misunderstood).

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think the problem you have is this; there is actually some educational value in what the rest of the class is doing. To the extent that religion is a way of living, you learn things about it by observing it or participating in it in a way that you won’t learn simply from studying it.

There is nothing educational about being forced to participate in religious instruction/services which one doesn't believe in or wish to participate in.
Do you really, honestly think that that is a worthwhile use of precious school hours?
The school and pupils would be far better introducing science, for instance, or drama, anything really.
It's easy to defend religious 'education' when it's indoctrination into one's own religion.
Would you be as happy for your child to spend the same amount of time per week being indoctrinated into a religion other than your own?

If they learn anything, it will be about the hypocrisy of adults and how in Ireland we love to pay lip-service to 'traditional values' like Irish and religion by forcing kids to go through the motions, while the majority of adults themselves have little or no interest in these things in their own lives.

But it'll only take a couple of sessions to pick that up

Whereas you feel that there’s minimal educational value in sitting at the back of somebody else’s class, being given a workbook and told to keep quiet.

IMHO the child would be far better off reading a book of their own choosing. I wish I'd had that option, I loved reading and what we were made read at school was below my reading level and/or extremely boring.

So your child would paying an educational price in opting out of the religious exercises the rest of the class participates in.

There is a huge difference between being indoctrinated in a religion, and being educated about religions. There is no need whatsoever to teach religion as fact, indoctrinate, or participate in rituals, to learn about religions.

Even if your child was doing something more useful with his time that toying with a workbook, he’d still be missing out on singing in the choir, or performing in other ways.

Why, too often, does the only opportunity for singing have to be religious singing? That was the case for me in school and it took all the fun out of it.

Peregrinus

ninja900 wrote: »

There is nothing educational about being forced to participate in religious instruction/services which one doesn't believe in or wish to participate in.
Do you really, honestly think that that is a worthwhile use of precious school hours?

There quite obviously can be educational value. Do you think the educational value of, e.g., singing in a choir disappears if the occasion on which the choir sings is a church service? How does that work?

ninja900 wrote: »

Would you be as happy for your child to spend the same amount of time per week being indoctrinated into a religion other than your own?

The issue here is not how I want my child raised, but how quenching wants his (her?) child raised. And quenching has made it clear that he’s quite happy for his child to participate in the religious education offered by the school ; in fact he thinks the child will learn important things by doing so. Whether I agree with quenching’s position (or whether you do) is irrelevant to finding a solution to the dilemma now facing quenching.

quenching

All of you make valid points, if it was a perfect world (or country) then religion would be kept at home and away from schools. If parents were that interested in their child being of a particular religious persuasion then they should take the time to educate them about it themselves and not leave it to schools as most parents do, how many claim their children are Catholic, COI, etc and never attend church services regularly?

I'm trying to leave religion as an open book, I'm happy to let them learn about ALL religions and the fact that many have no religion, and that what people believe is their own business and they shouldn't try to indoctrinate others. When my children are old enough to make an informed decision they can do so themselves, until then I'd prefer that others don't try to sway them one way or the other, difficult in Ireland and the Irish education system.

I see the value in learning about religions, historical, artistic, moral, etc. and acknowledge that its a part of many peoples lives, just not mine. The fact that a lot of the more entertaining parts of the school day such as singing and art often have a religious slant is unfortunate but its something I can live with, I'd rather not but some battles are never going to be won and I have to be conscious of the fact that its a small close-knit school when its best if everyone can get on as best they can.

Thank you all for your opinions, whether I agree with everything or not they've all offered important points to consider.

gaynorvader

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nothing contradictory there. You’re quite happy to have your child learn about religious beliefs, to have him understand what religion is, etc; you just don’t want him participating to the extent of formally practising religion, as opposed to learning about it. Or, more accurately, you don’t want him put in a position where he’s required or expected to participate; from what you say if he chose to participate you wouldn’t prevent him. Seems very reasonable to me.

I think the problem you have is this; there is actually some educational value in what the rest of the class is doing. To the extent that religion is a way of living, you learn things about it by observing it or participating in it in a way that you won’t learn simply from studying it. Of course I understand that, this value notwithstanding, participating is still crossing a line that you are uncomfortable about. But, leaving a better understanding of religion aside, there is educational value in singing in a choir, reading to an assembly, etc; and that value doesn’t disappear if the choir is singing hymns, or the assembly is a congregation. Whereas you feel that there’s minimal educational value in sitting at the back of somebody else’s class, being given a workbook and told to keep quiet.

So your child would paying an educational price in opting out of the religious exercises the rest of the class participates in. That price might be minimised if a more productive or challenging way of spending the time were offered to those who do not participate, but that doesn’t seem likely to happen. Even if it did, it might reduce the problem rather than solving it. Even if your child was doing something more useful with his time that toying with a workbook, he’d still be missing out on singing in the choir, or performing in other ways.

But I don’t think there’s a neat solution to this. Even if you wanted to, you couldn’t insist that the religious exercises of the class be stripped of all educational value, so there will always be some cost to withdrawing your child from them. On the other hand, there is the affirmative educational value of teaching your child by your stance on this of the importance of living in accordance with your convictions, and of the fact that different people make different choices according to their values, and this is not always easy because sometimes there is a cost to it.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

In terms of "too much time spent preparing for religious services", I've never really seen the problem. The type of activity that is likely involved - singing, reading, (dancing?), history, story-telling, (arts and craft?) are perfectly compatible with a 9 year-olds school day. It's all a learning experience and the trip to the local church is, no doubt, a hoot for children in classrooms all day.

I've never really bought the idea that one must believe in God/a particular faith to learn or enjoy religious education - OP seems to be of the same mindset, I think (unless I misunderstood).

I'm not going to argue that there is no education gained from getting involved in a church service, hell there's education in playing video games. My point is, it's a waste of school time. It wouldn't be so bad if it were half a day or maybe a full day, but it sounds like this is interrupting several full days. That means it's taking over from history, geography, maths, Irish, English, art, p.e. and whatever else might be learned.
There is a wealth of history tied up with religion, but you're not going to learn it doing a nativity play.

Peregrinus

Meh. My daughter's school has spent "several full days" - more, really - preparing for their grand end-of-year extravaganza involving prizes, speeches, dance, chorale, instrumental performance and heaven knows what more besides. There's been bugger all history, geography or maths done since I don't know when. I don;'t douibt the educational value of what she's doing and I don;t see why anyone else would, unless you take the view that "education" means absorbing facts - a view which seems to be all too common in Ireland.

A bit of balance here. If you're withdrawing your child from all performance-based activities on the grounds that you don't consider performance to have any educational value, that's a bit sad, but I guess it's your right. At any rate, you're being consistgent. I'd disagree with you, though.

If you're withdrawing your child from performances in the context of church services because they are offensive to your conscience, that's praiseworthy, and it's your right.

But if you let your child participate in performances, but withdraw them from performances in the context of religious services on the grounds that they lack educational value - I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS.

gaynorvader

Peregrinus wrote: »

Meh. My daughter's school has spent "several full days" - more, really - preparing for their grand end-of-year extravaganza involving prizes, speeches, dance, chorale, instrumental performance and heaven knows what more besides. There's been bugger all history, geography or maths done since I don't know when. I don;'t douibt the educational value of what she's doing and I don;t see why anyone else would, unless you take the view that "education" means absorbing facts - a view which seems to be all too common in Ireland.

A bit of balance here. If you're withdrawing your child from all performance-based activities on the grounds that you don't consider performance to have any educational value, that's a bit sad, but I guess it's your right. At any rate, you're being consistgent. I'd disagree with you, though.

If you're withdrawing your child from performances in the context of church services because they are offensive to your conscience, that's praiseworthy, and it's your right.

But if you let your child participate in performances, but withdraw them from performances in the context of religious services on the grounds that they lack educational value - I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS.

Again, not saying there's no educational value, just that too much time spent on one subject all at once is not a good thing, it should be more spread out, maybe take half days rather than full days or something like that.

Peregrinus

That may be so, but (a) that has nothing to do with whether the performance is of a religious nature or not, and (b) it's pretty well inevitable, given the nature of performance, that the rehearsal/preparation/costuming/etc time demands go up exponentially as the performance date approaches.

gaynorvader

Peregrinus wrote: »

That may be so, but (a) that has nothing to do with whether the performance is of a religious nature or not, and (b) it's pretty well inevitable, given the nature of performance, that the rehearsal/preparation/costuming/etc time demands go up exponentially as the performance date approaches.

I agree with (a), but not (b). We had many plays and performances (religious and irreligious) throughout my school life and they were never allowed to interfere with academic subjects. Either a class was set aside for them once a week or we rehearsed during lunchtime or after school or instead of PE (usually only towards the end of rehearsals). While I agree that more rehearsal is usually needed closer to the 'live' date, I disagree that it's exponential.

Peregrinus

gaynorvader wrote: »

I agree with (a), but not (b). We had many plays and performances (religious and irreligious) throughout my school life and they were never allowed to interfere with academic subjects. Either a class was set aside for them once a week or we rehearsed during lunchtime or after school or instead of PE (usually only towards the end of rehearsals). While I agree that more rehearsal is usually needed closer to the 'live' date, I disagree that it's exponential.

Well, our experiences vary, but I don't think much turns on that. I'm all in favour of studying maths, history, etc, regularly throughout the year, but I don't think it's a huge problem if, a couple of times during the year, normal programming is disrupted by a special event, only to resume thereafter, and I'm happy to accept that whatever educational downside is involved can be more than offset by the educational upside of involvment in such an event.

However, whether you're right or I'm right about this has nothing to do with whether the disruption has a religious character or not, and I think it's a mistake to try and fight a freedom of conscience battle on the basis of supposed educational disadvantage. The strongest ground for demanding freedom of conscience is, well, the right to freedom of conscience.

Turtwig

Folks, I hate to be a snarky mod but I think it's preferable that the thread stay directly on the subject of the OPs issues. Please don't turn this into an education subject duration debate. (Yet!) Unless pertaining to OP queries.

Peregrinus

Well, going back to the OP's issues, I think the position is that the question of what to do with students who are withdrawn from whatever activity the rest of the class is engaged it is one for the school management, and it is unlikely that the Dept of Education specifies what they ought to do, or would willingly interfere with their decision.

But the case for offering an educationally productive alternative becomes stronger as the number of students withdrawn from the activity becomes larger, and if quenching's child is not the only one being withdrawn from churchy stuff, then perhaps a joint approach from several parents stressing the need for something productive for their kids would be taken somewhat seriously.

Plus if, as quenching says in post 9, the school has "a stated acceptance of other beliefs or none at all", that creates some obligation/expectation that the pupils of OB or NAA will be catered for as well as the CoI pupils, and can't be left to stagnate while the CoI kids participate in exciting, stimulating, rewarding theatre, song and performance.

In other words, don't make the case that the churchy stuff is, educationally, a waste of time. On the basis that it has educational value, suggest that if the school really esteems pupils of OB or NAA equally then it needs to do what it can to see that they're not disadvantaged, and while the churchy stuff is happening every effort should be made to offer them something of educational value.

gaynorvader

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, our experiences vary, but I don't think much turns on that. I'm all in favour of studying maths, history, etc, regularly throughout the year, but I don't think it's a huge problem if, a couple of times during the year, normal programming is disrupted by a special event, only to resume thereafter, and I'm happy to accept that whatever educational downside is involved can be more than offset by the educational upside of involvment in such an event.

However, whether you're right or I'm right about this has nothing to do with whether the disruption has a religious character or not, and I think it's a mistake to try and fight a freedom of conscience battle on the basis of supposed educational disadvantage. The strongest ground for demanding freedom of conscience is, well, the right to freedom of conscience.

Agreed.

Jernal wrote: »

Folks, I hate to be a snarky mod but I think it's preferable that the thread stay directly on the subject of the OPs issues. Please don't turn this into an education subject duration debate. (Yet!) Unless pertaining to OP queries.

I think for once, we're actually coming to an amicable agreement! Weird for this forum I know!