Nicolas Roche - 2014 season

GetWithIt

The annual, post Tour, Nico bashing. Roll on La Vuelta.

Pudsy33

GetWithIt wrote: »

The annual, post Tour, Nico bashing. Roll on La Vuelta.

To be fair, he's not receiving much of a bashing. He had a strong tour, doing Trojan work for Contador and Majka. I think people, rightly or wrongly, want to see him achieve what they believe him to be capable of.

Macy0161

Nico bashing? That's not how I'm really reading the thread. He had a great tour and great couple of seasons with Tinkoff-Saxo/ Riis in the role(s) he was asked to play, as can be seen by the number of options he has now. He just has decisions on how he goes forward from here - either are perfectly valid.

highbury1913

I wasn't particularly happy to see Nico go to Saxo in the first place but there's one thing you can't take away from Riis, is that he's a very demanding DS. The two years riding under him will have done his progress no harm at all and it will be beneficial for the future. Neverthless, time for pastures new and I think the signs were there for him to leave when he expressed his unhappiness that Contador was doing the Vuelta this year. At the time, he wasn't nailed on for the Giro but he consistently said the Vuelta is his favourite race and one he loves to target. Majka's continual upward development will hinder his chances even more. I was reading today that Navarro could be returning to Saxo so a change of air for his own needs is about right at this stage. The move has worked out to some degree. Take the Vuelta stage win, Nico said that Riis was very demanding of him that day and said he had to win as the parcours was very much suited to his characteristics. I don't think that would have happened at AG2R and the same can be said for his Route du Sud win this year. Look at the World's when Riis pushed him to ride the TTs in 2013 to improve in this discipline and Riis was in the Irish team car(again not too happy with that), it's not something we would have seen had he stayed at AG2R.

I'm not so sure Sky is the best move for him. Froome and Porte are obviously the main leaders but Kennaugh complained the other day about a lack of opportunities for himself and others in the team. I can see Kennaugh getting a more prominent role and Sergio Henao is back in the equation. Brailsford has also expressed his interest in Warren Barguil. Sebastian Henao is a super talent as we seen in the Giro this year. I think Nico would be well advised to stay clear of Sky. I'm not surprised to hear they want to sign him as Fran Millar said just before they signed Deignan, that they very much wanted to sign Irish riders in the future.

Trek would be the best move for him. Andy is finished and there's isn't too long left in Zubeldia as a rider and I think he can get more opportunities as a result. That might be his option.

godtabh

I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.

pelevin

highbury1913 wrote: »

I wasn't particularly happy to see Nico go to Saxo in the first place but there's one thing you can't take away from Riis, is that he's a very demanding DS. The two years riding under him will have done his progress no harm at all and it will be beneficial for the future. Neverthless, time for pastures new and I think the signs were there for him to leave when he expressed his unhappiness that Contador was doing the Vuelta this year. At the time, he wasn't nailed on for the Giro but he consistently said the Vuelta is his favourite race and one he loves to target. Majka's continual upward development will hinder his chances even more. I was reading today that Navarro could be returning to Saxo so a change of air for his own needs is about right at this stage. The move has worked out to some degree. Take the Vuelta stage win, Nico said that Riis was very demanding of him that day and said he had to win as the parcours was very much suited to his characteristics. I don't think that would have happened at AG2R and the same can be said for his Route du Sud win this year. Look at the World's when Riis pushed him to ride the TTs in 2013 to improve in this discipline and Riis was in the Irish team car(again not too happy with that), it's not something we would have seen had he stayed at AG2R.

I'm not so sure Sky is the best move for him. Froome and Porte are obviously the main leaders but Kennaugh complained the other day about a lack of opportunities for himself and others in the team. I can see Kennaugh getting a more prominent role and Sergio Henao is back in the equation. Brailsford has also expressed his interest in Warren Barguil. Sebastian Henao is a super talent as we seen in the Giro this year. I think Nico would be well advised to stay clear of Sky. I'm not surprised to hear they want to sign him as Fran Millar said just before they signed Deignan, that they very much wanted to sign Irish riders in the future.

Trek would be the best move for him. Andy is finished and there's isn't too long left in Zubeldia as a rider and I think he can get more opportunities as a result. That might be his option.

Good post. One thing though I disagree with, which is a very minor part of your post, is the issue over Riis in the Irish team car. If Riis is considered such an amoral/immoral element, well presumably one wouldn't want Roche in the team in the Irish first place because of his riding on Riis's team. If otoh Roche being on the Irish team is fine, then this can only imply that association with Riis isn't by implication damning at all, that their working relationship is fine, and so this thing about him being in the car is choosing to reduce complexity of life to self-gratifyingly simple Good v Bad scenarios.

So, repeating myself, If Riis is that bad that his mere presence for an hour in an Irish team car is sullying, why would you care about Roche in the first place when he's been riding for his team for 2 years? Also, imagine Roche asking the Irish set-up can Riis sit in the car for the TT, how can they say no without it being a disaster is terms of man-management of their rider. "No, we can't have Riis because association with him is so damning." . . .

highbury1913

godtabh wrote: »

I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.

Sky aren't great tactically, Sean Yates said that himself and Portal isn't the great DS that people might think he is. He just had clearly the strongest rider in Froome by a country mile in 2013.

I keep hearing about marginal gains, but how many riders since the team's inception has this affected, Wiggins(although his big transformation was at Garmin), Rogers is still showing his Sky form for Saxo today, so that really leaves Porte and Froome who have improved significantly under their watch. Where's marginal gains for Boasen Hagen who came with huge hype upon his arrival?

That's the thing about this, not a great deal of riders have improved significantly on their watch. I would even say Thomas with his talent is capable of doing a lot better.

pelevin

godtabh wrote: »

I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.

Though to me it's his reading of a race - not considered Sky's strong point either - that seems more an issue than marginal gains. I'd say it's that misreading surely cost Roche a stage win in the Giro when he looked the strongest rider in a breakaway but attacked unnecessarily too early, rather than trusting to beat them on the closing climb.

godtabh

Roche's TTing has improved over the last 2 years and that was down to Riis pushing him. When he followed him the car Roche was more focused and the mistakes were cut out. Thats where I believe the marginal gains could be significant. The fact he now has his own TT bike is the benefits of being with a team like Saxo/Sky.

Even his diet has improved. Gone are the days of plain pasta and ketchup.

highbury1913

pelevin wrote: »

Good post. One thing though, which is a very minor part of your post, I disagree with his the issue over Riis on the Irish team car. If Riis is considered such an amoral/immoral element, well presumably one wouldn't want Roche in the team in the first place because of his riding on Riis's team. If otoh this isn't a black & white matter & Roche being on the Irish team is fine, then this can only show that association with Riis isn't by implication damning at all, and so this thing about him being in the car is choosing to reduce complexity of life to self-gratifyingly simple Good v Bad scenarios.

If Riis is that bad that his mere presence for an hour in an Irish team car is sullying, why would you care about Roche in the first place when he's been riding for his team for 2 years?

My criticism is Cycling Ireland for allowing him in there in the first place. From an ethical sporting context, it should be a clear point in not allowing Riis in the car and the idea should have been shot down immediately when Riis first tried to persuade them on it.

I wasn't happy with Nico when he went there initially and still am not today. I said that first day.

In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.

pelevin

godtabh wrote: »

Roche's TTing has improved over the last 2 years and that was down to Riis pushing him. When he followed him the car Roche was more focused and the mistakes were cut out. Thats where I believe the marginal gains could be significant. The fact he now has his own TT bike is the benefits of being with a team like Saxo/Sky.

Even his diet has improved. Gone are the days of plain pasta and ketchup.

Sorry, I thought you were making a case of gaining from Sky in that 'marginal gains' sense over being with Saxo, rather than AG2R & the like.

pelevin

highbury1913 wrote: »

My criticism is Cycling Ireland for allowing him in there in the first place. From an ethical sporting context, it should be a clear point in not allowing Riis in the car and the idea should have been shot down immediately when Riis first tried to persuade them on it.

I wasn't happy with Nico when he went there initially and still am not today. I said that first day.

In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.

If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.

ZiabR

highbury1913 wrote: »

In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.

All this talk around Riis and his doping is getting very very boring. Forget about his doping, it does not affect how good he is at his current job. If "Rough Rider" was good for anything the other night, it was to show just how many people in cycling were doping (not that we did not already know), the only reason you keep going on about it was because Riis was caught and forced to confess. If all of the other dopers were suddenly to come out and confess, your view of Riis may change fairly fast.

Riis does seem to get improvements out of riders. Roche improved under Saxo, you cannot deny that. Roche is now decent when it comes to TT and I think his overall fitness has improved too.

godtabh

pelevin wrote: »

If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.

No offence to highbury1913 but he appears to want the cake and eat it

highbury1913

pelevin wrote: »

If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.

Has Roche a known doping past?

Do you think Sky with their newly enforced ZTP since the end of 2012 would want him if there was one?

Riis doped as rider and admitted it and we have stories from Hamilton and Rasmussen that paint him in extremely in poor light.

Bassons rode for Festina. Should we pour the sins of that team on to him as a result?

Moncoutie likewise with Cofidis and their dodgy past.

Pinotti rode for Saunier Duval and rode for BMC with Ochowicz, Andy Rihs and Lelangue involved. He's even now involved in their managment at BMC but many regard him as a clean rider.

highbury1913

logik wrote: »

All this talk around Riis and his doping is getting very very boring. Forget about his doping, it does not affect how good he is at his current job. If "Rough Rider" was good for anything the other night, it was to show just how many people in cycling were doping (not that we did not already know), the only reason you keep going on about it was because Riis was caught and forced to confess. If all of the other dopers were suddenly to come out and confess, your view of Riis may change fairly fast.

Riis does seem to get improvements out of riders. Roche improved under Saxo, you cannot deny that. Roche is now decent when it comes to TT and I think his overall fitness has improved too.

The reason why people go on about Riis is what he has done in his role as a manager of team.

To say we should just forget about his past after Hamilton's and Rasmussen's comments is absurd when he's still in that role today.

ZiabR

highbury1913 wrote: »

The reason why people go on about Riis is what he has done in his role as a manager of team.

To say we should just forget about his past after Hamilton's and Rasmussen's comments is absurd when he's still in that role today.

I am not saying to forget about his past but we need to stop going on about it... Yes he doped but so did 90% of riders in his era. Some of them were even more deceitful than the likes of Riis.

highbury1913

godtabh wrote: »

No offence to highbury1913 but he appears to want the cake and eat it

The same reply to yourself as what I said about Bassons, Moncoutie and Pinotti.

highbury1913

logik wrote: »

I am not saying to forget about his past but we need to stop going on about it... Yes he doped but so did 90% of riders in his era. Some of them were even more deceitful than the likes of Riis.

I agree there is a wider issue in discussing riders that were doping in that era when it was so widespread. The Dutch report into the EPO era showed this when a similarly percentage to the one you mentioned was reported among Dutch riders in that period. I don't deny that.

Lemond comes from that thinking too and attacks the issue in general where it's more directed at the UCI, enablers, team managers and doctors that promoted and enforced this culture.

Riis falls into this category.

godtabh

highbury1913 wrote: »

The same reply to yourself as what I said about Bassons, Moncoutie and Pinotti.

This thread is about Roche

highbury1913

godtabh wrote: »

This thread is about Roche

Yes it is about Roche and it's entirely linked.

It's was said that you should have the opinion that Roche shouldn't be allowed to ride for Ireland if you have the opinion that Riis shouldn't have been allowed in the Irish team car. I gave 3 example of riders who have ridden for teams that have known doping links and past but are generally known and perceived as clean in the cycling world. Therefore I don't think you can put the sins of other members of the team on to others who have no known doping past. That's linked it with the topic now discussed about Roche.

godtabh

highbury1913 wrote: »

Yes it is about Roche and it's entirely linked.

It's was said that you should have the opinion that Roche shouldn't be allowed to ride for Ireland if you have the opinion that Riis shouldn't have been allowed in the Irish team car. I gave 3 example of riders who have ridden for teams that have known doping links and past but are generally known and perceived as clean in the cycling world. Therefore I don't think you can put the sins of other members of the team on to others who have no known doping past. That's linked it with the topic now discussed about Roche.

I've made no comment on Riis past

highbury1913

godtabh wrote: »

I've made no comment on Riis past

You made a response to pelevin's post(who did mention Riis) about it and made direct reference to myself in doing so.

godtabh

Anyways

Does Roche need to decide now if he is a GC lad or a SD?

Can he do both still and be a main man in a team like Sky or Thinkoff?

changepartners

godtabh wrote: »

Anyways
Does Roche need to decide now if he is a GC lad or a SD?

Do you see Roche as GC contender? I just can't see it personally.

godtabh

changepartners wrote: »

Do you see Roche as GC contender? I just can't see it personally.

In the Vuelta yes top 5/podium capable. Any where else no.

retalivity

I cannot decide until I have heard input from MPFG...

highbury1913

godtabh wrote: »

In the Vuelta yes top 5/podium capable. Any where else no.

The Vuelta is always his best bet. The short one climb stages where there were many last year suit his characteristics.

The longer climbs and especially ones where there are multiple climbs in a stage is where he is still found wanting for the most part when the pace is upped and the selections are made.

The Gallina and Angliru stage showed that last year.

gordongekko

Roches big problem is that he's to big to be a climber to small to be a sprinter and his decision making when in breaks is suspect. He'd be better off forgetting about being a leader during the gt's and concentrate on the classics and gt stage wins.

highbury1913

gordongekko wrote: »

Roches big problem is that he's to big to be a climber to small to be a sprinter and his decision making when in breaks is suspect. He'd be better off forgetting about being a leader during the gt's and concentrate on the classics and gt stage wins.

Agree, we remember Dan Martin from the 2011 Vuelta more for his stage win at La Covatilla than where he finished on GC at the end of the race. The same with the Tour last year.

Roche is at the stage where he's at a crossroads at where he wants his career to go in his future.

Pudsy33

gordongekko wrote: »

Roches big problem is that he's to big to be a climber to small to be a sprinter and his decision making when in breaks is suspect. He'd be better off forgetting about being a leader during the gt's and concentrate on the classics and gt stage wins.

That's all well and good but he needs to fins a team to support those ambitions. If he goes to sky, I suspect he will be given little leeway to chase stages. IAM or Trek will expect him to be a leader. None of these teams will recruit him purely for classics. Stage racing is still his best bet imo.

Glass Prison 1214

If IAM become a world tour team, I think that would be the best for Roche, I would imagine he would get a lot of chances there.

el tel

Ah well, if he leaves Tinkoff-Saxo that means he'll be spared the cheesy pre-season training camp publicity films and photoshoots.

ednwireland

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/transfers-tinkoff-saxo-to-make-three-major-announcements-in-august

Two sources have confirmed that Team Sky is leading the chase for Nicolas Roche, with the Irish rider set to leave Tinkoff-Saxo after two seasons with Bjarne Riis' squad. IAM Cycling and Trek Factory Racing also apparently negotiating with the rider although Roche’s agent Andrew McQuaid refused to comment on the reports.

gordongekko

el tel wrote: »

Ah well, if he leaves Tinkoff-Saxo that means he'll be spared the cheesy pre-season training camp publicity films and photoshoots.

But if he joins iam, I will always think of this http://www.iams.com

ZiabR

el tel wrote: »

Ah well, if he leaves Tinkoff-Saxo that means he'll be spared the cheesy pre-season training camp publicity films and photoshoots.

I didnt mind the films. Liked hearing the guys discussing where each rider saw themselves in the team and what tours each would attend in the coming year etc.

Zyzz

Roche out, Sagan in.

Oleg will be a happy man..

ZiabR

Zyzz wrote: »

Roche out, Sagan in.

Oleg will be a happy man..

Confirmed? Link?

Pudsy33

The latest from Oleg himself

Dear @tinkoff_saxo fans, do you want me to close the deal with Peter Sagan?
If i get 1000 retweets, i will do it!

death1234567

Pudsy33 wrote: »

The latest from Oleg himself

Dear @tinkoff_saxo fans, do you want me to close the deal with Peter Sagan?
If i get 1000 retweets, i will do it!

I'd hazard a guess it's already been closed quite some time ago.

ThisRegard

Maybe they'll keep Roche too in order to try help Sagan win a stage ?

Dr. Bre

sky turned froome into Grand tour winner from nothing. why cant Roche also. haha

ednwireland

gordongekko wrote: »

But if he joins iam, I will always think of this http://www.iams.com

i always think the same when i seem iam cycling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud1rkQdaZHc

Pudsy33

I strongly recommend checking out Oleg Tinkoffs Twitter account. He is on a drunken rampage. He's claiming to have signed Wiggins, and then suggested Froome had blocked the deal :pac: he's Retweeting the Roche to Sky rumors, and has said he likes Nico, but he was demanding too much money.

Darkglasses

i like Nico but he asked 2million, i can't

Look Oleg, this is fun and all, but just tell who's doping, we don't care about that

pprendeville

I wonder how much is he on at Saxo. I agree with an earlier post that Roche will never be an out and out GC contender and that a move to Trek who are rebuilding might not be a good choice. IAM don't appear to have a strong squad. I think Sky would suit him where he'd work for Froome (nothing wrong with working IMO). Porte is their other GC man and although he had a poor season I hope he'll be back to his best next year. If he really wanted to ride for the GC Netapp Endura look seem to be on the up although Konig is the man in the hot seat there.

MPFG

retalivity wrote: »

I cannot decide until I have heard input from MPFG...

Well first of all Tinkoff is full of it...no way is Nico asking for 2 million...I wasn't sure he was leaving but with that output I now am ...Tinkoff is muddying the water for fans when Nico leaves

I'd say he is on about 750K per annum...

As for GC ...Of course he can ride it.....if only Froome, Contador,Nibali & Quintana then GC field very restricted...Afterall who would have thought Peraud would be second in the Tour this year....There is not much difference between top 10 riders...Konig,Van De Brook,Mollema ....see Roche up with them if not worn out and in Vuelata 203 form...He must have numbers that would indicate this or no team would sign him for GC

I unlike others here thought his climbing hasn't been top this year at TCS and when he has had an opportunity in Tour he was tired and then had to ride for KOM...He did alot of Dom riding all year

He has 2/3 years max to ride GC so I see nothing wrong with giving it a go esp if he wants to do it and won't be happy otherwise...he can always go back to riding domestique afterwards

As for team to join.....
No point in SKY as same story as TCS ?? Not unless Brailsford can help improve his climbing...Afterall Sir B wants to win Tour with a French rider :eek:

I favour Trek as have some good riders but no out and out leader

IAM are also good if they were pro tour

I am happy he wants to ride GC....its all he has wanted and why not give it a try....many years to regret not doing it

Darkglasses

I wouldn't be surprised if Nico *asked* for 2 million. EBH was apparently looking 1 million, and Nico's surely worth more than him. What he actually would get after negotiation is probably somewhere between the two.

MPFG

Gilbert is on about 1 million....so Nico not going to get 2 million or next to it
Sky don't pay big money now as said they would like certain riders but have not signed as asking for too much money

You need a very good team towin the Tour but an ok team if riding GC or aiming to win Vuelta....really hope he goes to Trek

Solobally8

Roche's name is not on the latest Vuelta start list. Was he planning to do it? I thought he would be.