Judith **Comic book and Season 4 Episode 8 SPOILERS**

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Makes what pointless?

The premise of the show, anyone trying to survive, humanity.

If there is no hope for immunity or a cure, what's the point in trying to stay alive? To just be the last man standing? There is no point if that's the situation.

5starpool

Th point is that people and humanity in general always struggle for survival. In theory there could be a new way of living if a point was reached where the majority of the walkers were killed (which should probably already have happened after a couple of years, but I digress) and humanity rebuilds in some way with the survivors shaping the new form of civilisation albeit with the understanding that when you die you need to be killed again, and the ensuing precautions that come along with that such as secure sleeping areas and illness treatments precautions.

It is a long way off in TWD, but in such an apocalyptic plague scenario it is the likely way it would play out I'd suggest. Get a foothold, create some semblance of a leadership structure, organise ways to fight back and eradicate as many as you can, and then get on with life as best you can. Even if the plague killed/zombified 99.5% of the population, taking the US for example there would be around 1.5m survivors which is more than viable to rebuild civilisation, especially considering a similar ratio worldwide is 70m people.

Civilisation would take a huge step back technologically but enough would be retained to rebuild and come back slowly. The resilience of mankind is the story.

In TWD though there seems to be an unending supply of zombies and even in the Georgia backwaters every time there is a big commotion within hours there are hundreds of zombies, no matter how many times they have killed hundreds before. Yes, obviously it is a zombie show so realism isn't high on the agenda, but there shouldn't be that many of them always nearby just waiting to be attracted in their slow shuffling manner to an explosion or whatever, especially when the living in the surrounding areas have been killing them at a decent pace. Some people are still turning, but that majority are already zombies.

Slightly off topic though perhaps

username123

5starpool wrote: »

Th point is that people and humanity in general always struggle for survival. In theory there could be a new way of living if a point was reached where the majority of the walkers were killed (which should probably already have happened after a couple of years, but I digress) and humanity rebuilds in some way with the survivors shaping the new form of civilisation albeit with the understanding that when you die you need to be killed again, and the ensuing precautions that come along with that such as secure sleeping areas and illness treatments precautions.

While I dont disagree with this as a somewhat plausible scenario, I think its just too knife edge to work well. People die unexpectedly through accidents or natural disaster, whatever civilisation grows from the survivors is at too high a risk of someone dying and ruining it all. Not to mention the risk from other humans like the Governor wanting what youve got.

Even if we got into high tech solutions like brain implants that explode when the body dies thus rendering reanimation impossible - who would implant them?

Or an island solution - a certain number of survivors gather and go to some island that they can definitively clear of walkers - but there is always the risk of an unexpected death, or a walker washing up in the waves etc..

If there is truly no immunity and no cure possible - then I think the show is just based on watching the dying gasp of humanity - which is disappointing.

LOSTfan57

username123 wrote: »

While I dont disagree with this as a somewhat plausible scenario, I think its just too knife edge to work well. People die unexpectedly through accidents or natural disaster, whatever civilisation grows from the survivors is at too high a risk of someone dying and ruining it all. Not to mention the risk from other humans like the Governor wanting what youve got.

Even if we got into high tech solutions like brain implants that explode when the body dies thus rendering reanimation impossible - who would implant them?

Or an island solution - a certain number of survivors gather and go to some island that they can definitively clear of walkers - but there is always the risk of an unexpected death, or a walker washing up in the waves etc..

If there is truly no immunity and no cure possible - then I think the show is just based on watching the dying gasp of humanity - which is disappointing.

i do think you do miss the point of the show. you don't follow the comics either do you?

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

i do think you do miss the point of the show. you don't follow the comics either do you?

I have them but I havent read them.

ok - whats the point of the show? Do enlighten me!

leggo

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Kirkman has said there is no cure.........

Don't put too much stock into that, there's nothing to say he can't change his mind. Sure your username is about Lost and for the entire series the writers said

it wasn't a dream, then hey the final scene has them all realising it was (kinda) a dream

. These things change as per necessity. And while the comic books may have that bleak ending, with TV there's a much greater requirement for endings to be defined. So some sort of a cure being found (likely with an asterisk that allows Kirkman to save face, or an angle that hadn't been considered but essentially reaches the same end -

ala Lost

) is still very possible.

5starpool

username123 wrote: »

While I dont disagree with this as a somewhat plausible scenario, I think its just too knife edge to work well. People die unexpectedly through accidents or natural disaster, whatever civilisation grows from the survivors is at too high a risk of someone dying and ruining it all. Not to mention the risk from other humans like the Governor wanting what youve got.

Even if we got into high tech solutions like brain implants that explode when the body dies thus rendering reanimation impossible - who would implant them?

Or an island solution - a certain number of survivors gather and go to some island that they can definitively clear of walkers - but there is always the risk of an unexpected death, or a walker washing up in the waves etc..

If there is truly no immunity and no cure possible - then I think the show is just based on watching the dying gasp of humanity - which is disappointing.

If they ever got to the point (it'd be way beyond the scope of the show I'd say) where civilisation was recovering then something like you say above would be treated far differently than it was at the start. If 20 people were living in a settlement and one person got bitten by a stray walker they would likely not get time to kill too many before they (and those they bit) were put down. At the start of the outbreak the reason it would have spread so fast was panic, bigger numbers of people of course, and ignorance of what was happening. None of those would be factors in a world slowly recovering, even if there was no cure. It wouldn't necessarily take any fancy brain implant things, just a bit of extra caution such as secure sleeping quarters and if you shared a room with someone who turned then tough, but you can't get out to kill others.

Humans would endure and adapt in ways that would have been unthinkable beforehand. Even if for the first few years it is a very fragmented society, unless almost everyone was dead, people would coalesce at some point, even if only larger regional networks of communities once they had figured out a way to provide enough food for everyone. That would be the key thing to survival in larger groups I think.

username123

5starpool wrote: »

If they ever got to the point (it'd be way beyond the scope of the show I'd say) where civilisation was recovering then something like you say above would be treated far differently than it was at the start. If 20 people were living in a settlement and one person got bitten by a stray walker they would likely not get time to kill too many before they (and those they bit) were put down. At the start of the outbreak the reason it would have spread so fast was panic, bigger numbers of people of course, and ignorance of what was happening. None of those would be factors in a world slowly recovering, even if there was no cure. It wouldn't necessarily take any fancy brain implant things, just a bit of extra caution such as secure sleeping quarters and if you shared a room with someone who turned then tough, but you can't get out to kill others.

Given what we have seen in the prison where people die unexpectedly - they do get to do a lot of damage before they get put down so its still a massive risk.

The only way I could see it working would be a night watch type society where there are people with weapons watching over sleepers.

Still doesnt cater for the natural disaster scenario though. Imagine a situation like the hurricanes that they had recently in the states?

With smaller settlements there is no chance for the reproduction rate to recover - a settlement of 50 people over a 50 year period - they will lose people to walkers, to disease, to old age, to accidents. The reproduction rate is likely to never match the numbers they are going to lose to those four.

LOSTfan57

leggo wrote: »

Don't put too much stock into that, there's nothing to say he can't change his mind. Sure your username is about Lost and for the entire series the writers said

it wasn't a dream, then hey the final scene has them all realising it was (kinda) a dream

. These things change as per necessity. And while the comic books may have that bleak ending, with TV there's a much greater requirement for endings to be defined. So some sort of a cure being found (likely with an asterisk that allows Kirkman to save face, or an angle that hadn't been considered but essentially reaches the same end -

ala Lost

) is still very possible.

I think you need to rewatch LOST.......

LOSTfan57

username123 wrote: »

Given what we have seen in the prison where people die unexpectedly - they do get to do a lot of damage before they get put down so its still a massive risk.

The only way I could see it working would be a night watch type society where there are people with weapons watching over sleepers.

Still doesnt cater for the natural disaster scenario though. Imagine a situation like the hurricanes that they had recently in the states?

With smaller settlements there is no chance for the reproduction rate to recover - a settlement of 50 people over a 50 year period - they will lose people to walkers, to disease, to old age, to accidents. The reproduction rate is likely to never match the numbers they are going to lose to those four.

Well i reccomed you read those comics.
For an idea of what the point is!

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Well i reccomed you read those comics.
For an idea of what the point is!

No, no, no, you don't get away that easy!

We're posting in the television forum and you tell me I've missed the point of a show. Forget the comics. Tell me the point of the show please?

LOSTfan57

username123 wrote: »

No, no, no, you don't get away that easy!

We're posting in the television forum and you tell me I've missed the point of a show. Forget the comics. Tell me the point of the show please?

Ok then well have you watched all the episodes or are one of the skipper/skimmers who dont watch all the episodes? If its the latter I dont wanna waste my time.....and its all gone quite when i answered your challenge

5starpool

username123 wrote: »

Given what we have seen in the prison where people die unexpectedly - they do get to do a lot of damage before they get put down so its still a massive risk.

The only way I could see it working would be a night watch type society where there are people with weapons watching over sleepers.

Still doesnt cater for the natural disaster scenario though. Imagine a situation like the hurricanes that they had recently in the states?

With smaller settlements there is no chance for the reproduction rate to recover - a settlement of 50 people over a 50 year period - they will lose people to walkers, to disease, to old age, to accidents. The reproduction rate is likely to never match the numbers they are going to lose to those four.

I'm more discussing the crazy real world hypothetical, not the TWD version. The people in the show take far less precautions than anyone would if it were a real world scenario, which is obviously for action purposes. A group of 50 even is not sustainable as an isolated group for 50 years, that's why I said that over time as things stabilised and more order was restored even at a local level between local settlements, things would be more viable for a new society of sorts but with some differing rules. You asked what the point of living would be if there were no hope of a cure or an end to the dead reanimating, and that is what I was trying to answer.

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

Ok then well have you watched all the episodes or are one of the skipper/skimmers who dont watch all the episodes? If its the latter I dont wanna waste my time.....and its all gone quite when i answered your challenge

All the episodes.

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

I think you need to rewatch LOST.......

C'mon!! The ending of Lost was appalling!! Ruined the entire show. I'd never bother re watching after such a terrible end.

leggo

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

I think you need to rewatch LOST.......

Ah now, you're either gone into blinkered fanboy mode or you're trolling here. The ending basically said that

the flash-forwards were a collective state of limbo, a shared mental experience (dare I say it...a dream?), that allowed them to be with the people they shared their most meaningful days with

. It's a major cop-out/workaround/asterisk for a show that promised

it wouldn't all end in a dream or with them in limbo.

And a similar cop-out is equally as possible here, regardless of what Kirkman has said in the past, with a TV watching public that now demands either clearly defined (ala

Breaking Bad

) or ingeniously ambiguous (ala

The Sopranos

) endings. I don't think the writing standard is capable of the latter quality, so they'll have to go for clearly defined. There, you're left with:

1. They all die.
2. Certain people live under a new rule and are forever destined to live out this pitiful existence until they meet their maker.
3. There's a cure (or some form of end to the zombie apocalypse) found.
4. Or they just learn to live in cohesion with the zombies and use them for menial tasks,
   Shaun of the Dead
   -style.

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

..and its all gone quite when i answered your challenge

It certainly has gone quiet from your side. I am still waiting for you to enlighten me as to what the point of the show is? Youve avoided answering twice now, cmon, out with it, Im expecting some magical pearl of wisdom that will illuminate me and dispel the fog through which I have been watching!

Cork boy 55

5starpool wrote: »

Th point is that people and humanity in general always struggle for survival. In theory there could be a new way of living if a point was reached where the majority of the walkers were killed (which should probably already have happened after a couple of years, but I digress) and humanity rebuilds in some way with the survivors shaping the new form of civilisation albeit with the understanding that when you die you need to be killed again, and the ensuing precautions that come along with that such as secure sleeping areas and illness treatments precautions.

It is a long way off in TWD, but in such an apocalyptic plague scenario it is the likely way it would play out I'd suggest. Get a foothold, create some semblance of a leadership structure, organise ways to fight back and eradicate as many as you can, and then get on with life as best you can. Even if the plague killed/zombified 99.5% of the population, taking the US for example there would be around 1.5m survivors which is more than viable to rebuild civilisation, especially considering a similar ratio worldwide is 70m people.

Civilisation would take a huge step back technologically but enough would be retained to rebuild and come back slowly. The resilience of mankind is the story.

In TWD though there seems to be an unending supply of zombies and even in the Georgia backwaters every time there is a big commotion within hours there are hundreds of zombies, no matter how many times they have killed hundreds before. Yes, obviously it is a zombie show so realism isn't high on the agenda, but there shouldn't be that many of them always nearby just waiting to be attracted in their slow shuffling manner to an explosion or whatever, especially when the living in the surrounding areas have been killing them at a decent pace. Some people are still turning, but that majority are already zombies.

Slightly off topic though perhaps

Actually they are not that far into the countryside
They left Atlanta City to the south west on I-85 and did not get very far
all The locations
are close to the Main highway (Interstate 85 )The farm, Prison and wood bury Wood bury is mentioned as being 50 miles from Atlanta
The Atlanta city metropolitan area has 5.5 million people in it and Georgia has 10 million people,
Its been shown that the larger herds use the Interstate and main roads to move.
They should have moved deeper into countryside and away from main roads

Population density of Georgia, that big REddish spot in North is the Atalanta city metropolitan area
They are just to the south west of that,

username123

Well the numbers don't really make sense anyway:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/heres-why-the-walking-dead-doesnt-make-any-damn-sense

Paddy Cow

I could buy into the theory that children born after the apocalypse aren't infected by the virus. Lets say that the virus was initially airborne (could've been a government bio-chemical test that went wrong or something) so only people exposed to it initially ie everyone on the planet, is infected. The initial viral infection is dormant. The virus attaches itself deep in the brain of it's human host, waiting to become activated. Any virus that couldn't find a host dies after a certain period.

The first zombies were probably the result of death by natural causes/accidents. Instead of starting to decay, death triggers the virus which restarts the brain. We know there are two ways to turn into a zed - die and turn or get bitten, become sick, die and turn. In 28 Days Later, all it took was one drop of infected blood in someone's bloodstream and they turned in about 20 seconds. In TWD, the survivors don't seem worried about getting zombie blood on them. We've seen people enter fights with open wounds and finish covered in zed blood, yet they didn't turn.

So how else could a zombie bite infect someone if not through the blood? Saliva. This is produced by the sympathetic nervous system "Its general action is to mobilize the body's nervous system fight-or-flight response. It is, however, constantly active at a basic level to maintain homeostasis." After the virus hot wires the brain and all sorts of freaky sh!t starts happening, the virus begins the next stage of it's cycle, multiplies and is stored in the saliva. When a zed chomps down on someone, a concentrated dose of the next-stage virus is left in the wound. It might take awhile for the virus to enter the bloodstream, which would explain how they were able to save Hershel by cutting off his leg. If cutting off the bite isn't an option, then the person becomes sick. This is because the second stage virus has traveled to the brain and activated the dormant virus and the two virus's working together overwhelm the person and death occurs.

Anyone born a certain time after the apocalypse won't have been exposed to the virus and it is airborne, not genetic, so they won't have inherited it. If there is no virus in their brain, then when they die they simply stay dead. If they get bitten, unless the bite itself caused a mortal wound, the person would only have one form of the virus in their system and while the sickness is unpleasant, if they are in good health, they should be able to fight it.

It would be nice as well if there was a time limit on how long the virus could live as a dormant host in someones brain - like say a few years and after that if the person is still alive they get to be normal again. I love TWD in general (never read the comics so not a proper fan :P) but it depressed the hell out of me when I found out that everyone is going to turn no matter what. Even if none of the above is true, I have myself convinced it's very possible as while I know that

the show isn't real

:eek: I

like to pretend it is and want to hope that the people I have become attached to have some chance of beating the odds.

LOSTfan57

username123 wrote: »

It certainly has gone quiet from your side. I am still waiting for you to enlighten me as to what the point of the show is? Youve avoided answering twice now, cmon, out with it, Im expecting some magical pearl of wisdom that will illuminate me and dispel the fog through which I have been watching!

sorry I've other work to be doing and cant just teach you about a show youve apparently watched. Actually arent you the same guy who thought there was a secret scientist among the group? Anyway when I'm done with work I'll probably try to explain but reading previous postings I cant help but think it will be futile

username123

Paddy Cow wrote: »

So how else could a zombie bite infect someone if not through the blood?

In TWD being bitten does not cause you to be infected with zombie virus. The problem is that the rotting zeds have mouths full of nasty bacteria so any bite not only turns into an infected mess in a world without access to antibiotics or proper medical care but gets the bacteria into the bloodstream through the open wound. They chopped off Herschels leg to prevent this bacteria from entering the bloodstream and causing blood poisoning.

Thats my understanding of why youre a goner after a bite anyway.

I like your theory re newborns not being infected. I also agree that an airborne virus probably has a particular life span so it may well be possible that new borns are not passed the virus through gestation and then dont encounter it in the air when they are born.

username123

LOSTfan57 wrote: »

sorry I've other work to be doing and cant just teach you about a show youve apparently watched. Actually arent you the same guy who thought there was a secret scientist among the group? Anyway when I'm done with work I'll probably try to explain but reading previous postings I cant help but think it will be futile

Nah, youre alright, I dont believe for a minute you have anything worthwhile to say and given your attitude in the above post - just dont bother replying to anything I post again thanks.

LOSTfan57

username123 wrote: »

Nah, youre alright, I dont believe for a minute you have anything worthwhile to say and given your attitude in the above post - just dont bother replying to anything I post again thanks.

Fair enough mate. And regarding attitude you're the one who tried being condescending first! No hard feeling tho I respond to anything I see so I will prob reply to you again because I will forget about this unless I get called out again

smcgiff

username123 wrote: »

In TWD being bitten does not cause you to be infected with zombie virus. The problem is that the rotting zeds have mouths full of nasty bacteria so any bite not only turns into an infected mess in a world without access to antibiotics or proper medical care but gets the bacteria into the bloodstream through the open wound. They chopped off Herschels leg to prevent this bacteria from entering the bloodstream and causing blood poisoning.

Thats my understanding of why youre a goner after a bite anyway.

I like your theory re newborns not being infected. I also agree that an airborne virus probably has a particular life span so it may well be possible that new borns are not passed the virus through gestation and then dont encounter it in the air when they are born.

Yeah, they've said it on the programme that bites don't cause someone to turn. But they are fatal, and those bitten then turn because they are infected.

So, the virus is active, and in a lot of cases viruses transfer to babies in the womb. It's unlikely, even if initially airborne that all babies born to the infected would escape being infected.

username123

smcgiff wrote: »

Yeah, they've said it on the programme that bites don't cause someone to turn. But they are fatal, and those bitten then turn because they are infected.

So, the virus is active, and in a lot of cases viruses transfer to babies in the womb. It's unlikely, even if initially airborne that all babies born to the infected would escape being infected.

Yes, but there are cases where airborne viruses do not cross the placenta - flu is one of them. So theres a chance.

Also, some viruses that cross the placenta have a different effect on the baby than on the mother. Some cause birth defects as opposed to infecting the baby with the adult version of the disease - an example being chicken pox.

So even if the virus passes to the baby, it could do something completely different than render them zombiefied.