Smithwick: Collusion in Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen murders

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

They were policemen, not soldiers. Nobody had any right to murder them because they enforced the law.

The RUC was not engaged in policing along the lines of arresting the bad and helping cats out of trees. It was an armed sectarian force with a sectarian agenda.

Sand

And that's where I'll step back out, wondering at the marvellous cognitive dissonance of the Northern Ireland issue. I doubt you'd be as indifferent to other murders of other people determined as being valid targets by other illegal groups involved in that conflict.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Hardly. They were high ranking members of a force in which they were engaged in a protracted violent struggle.

So you agree with me then?

These men were killed.not because of any accusations against them, or activities one of them may have been engaged in, the IRA simply killed them because they could.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you agree with me then?

These men were killed.not because of any accusations against them, or activities one of them may have been engaged in, the IRA simply killed them because they could.

I've no idea what exact methodology was used to target them, no more than you do. Your language seems chosen to mislead.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

I've no idea what exact methodology was used to target them, no more than you do. Your language seems chosen to mislead.

No, it isn't. BFDCH put up an article from wikispooks to try and justify Harry Breen's murder, but that is a complete and utter red herring.

The IRA had an opportunity to kill two senior RUC men and they took it.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it isn't. BFDCH put up an article from wikispooks to try and justify Harry Breen's murder, but that is a complete and utter red herring..

Not nessecarily. They may have been seeking an opportunity to target that individual for some period of time.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The IRA had an opportunity to kill two senior RUC men and they took it.

Indeed.

grainnewhale

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, it isn't. BFDCH put up an article from wikispooks to try and justify Harry Breen's murder, but that is a complete and utter red herring.

The IRA had an opportunity to kill two senior RUC men and they took it.

That's how I would see it. Republicans saw an opportunity to kill two of their enemies and they took it. Maybe they should have made a citizens arrest and taken them to castlereagh for a bit of torture and forged a confession from them before executing them.

seamus

Sand wrote: »

And that's where I'll step back out, wondering at the marvellous cognitive dissonance of the Northern Ireland issue. I doubt you'd be as indifferent to other murders of other people determined as being valid targets by other illegal groups involved in that conflict.

Indeed, if these two killings were "valid", then last week's revelation about drive-by shootings shouldn't be an issue, since they were equally "valid" killings.

I suspect not though, there'll be some double-standard applied.

grainnewhale

Sand wrote: »

They were policemen, not soldiers. Nobody had any right to murder them because they enforced the law.

They definetly enforced something. But certainly not what any right minded person would call the law.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you agree with me then?

These men were killed.not because of any accusations against them, or activities one of them may have been engaged in, the IRA simply killed them because they could.

Chief Supt Harry Breen went on TV afterthe killing of 9 men, 8 of which were members of the IRA showing of guns recovered after that SAS ambush in Loughgall,
I would think he was seen as a high value target,

Judge Smithwick was of the view that the IRA wanted to interrogate Chief Supt Breen to get information on informers on that incident,

To say it was "because they could" is just balderdash

Slideshowbob

The focus is on what Adams said today.

But who was the Irish government in command at the time who had dissenters in their ranks??

Surely the FF who were the minority government at the time have issues to address

Sierra Oscar

Anyone watching Vincent Browne at the moment? Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Justice Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is saying there was a duty to murder these police officers. Can't really believe what I am hearing!

You could sort of understand Gerry Adams making a slip of the tongue earlier today as a mistake, didn't pay much notice to it myself. However it seems that this is official SF party line. They deserved to be murdered. Horrific really that we still have such a mindset in Irish politics after the peace process!

Busted Flat.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyone watching Vincent Browne at the moment? Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Justice Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is saying there was a duty to murder these police officers. Can't really believe what I am hearing!

You could sort of understand Gerry Adams making a slip of the tongue earlier today as a mistake, didn't pay much notice to it myself. However it seems that this is official SF party line. They deserved to be murdered. Horrific really that we still have such a mindset in Irish politics after the peace process!

They were sectarian terroists in uniform.

Nodin

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyone watching Vincent Browne at the moment? Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Justice Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is saying there was a duty to murder these police officers. Can't really believe what I am hearing!
........

I doubt he phrased it like that.

There was an armed conflict on at the time, you realise?

TOMASJ

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Anyone watching Vincent Browne at the moment? Sinn Féin Spokesperson on Justice Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is saying there was a duty to murder these police officers. Can't really believe what I am hearing!

You could sort of understand Gerry Adams making a slip of the tongue earlier today as a mistake, didn't pay much notice to it myself. However it seems that this is official SF party line. They deserved to be murdered. Horrific really that we still have such a mindset in Irish politics after the peace process!

You may have had a different opinion and mindset if you had been on the reciving end of this discrediced bigoted police force,

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

Chief Supt Harry Breen went on TV afterthe killing of 9 men, 8 of which were members of the IRA showing of guns recovered after that SAS ambush in Loughgall,
I would think he was seen as a high value target,

Judge Smithwick was of the view that the IRA wanted to interrogate Chief Supt Breen to get information on informers on that incident,

To say it was "because they could" is just balderdash

Why is it? They killed unarmed RUC officers or British soldiers whenever they felt like it.

maryishere

TOMASJ wrote: »

.....this discrediced bigoted police force,

what the Gardaí? So whats new then? It did not need a 12 million euro investigation or a judge to deliver the verdict to know that. I gather in just in one Garda station Judge Smithwick found 3 members who were found to have colluded to some extent in the past. A high percentage, don't you think.

oh, and if the 2 police forces wanted to meet to discuss matters of joint concern, whether it be terrorism or fuel laundering or whatever, wouldn't it have been safer for the gardai to meet in Newry police station rather than getting unarmed ruc to travel south of the border? Knowing by law they could not carry their firearms south of the border.

boetstark

TOMASJ wrote: »

You may have had a different opinion and mindset if you had been on the reciving end of this discrediced bigoted police force,

Hi guys New here but a regular reader.
There is no doubt that nationalists got a rough deal in NI. Imagine this scenario, people of Munster decide that we really don't want to be part of ROI. We are different and the destruction of the state as it stands is our aim. Guarantee there would be a backlash..nationalists in NI have been whinging since 1920's about United Ireland and they wonder then??
RUC were a non sectarian force in general, my uncle was an officer and Catholic and I guarantee he never heard a sectarian comment. They were brutal at times no doubt to Provo terrorists and their sympathisers.
That SF guy on Vincent Brown made me puke, a war is between 2 combatants. Calling IRA volunteers soldiers makes me sick. Anybody who murders defenceless women children and unarmed men are terrorists, nothing better.
We need to start calling a spade a spade in this small island if we are ever to move on.

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is it? They killed unarmed RUC officers or British soldiers whenever they felt like it.

Your phrasing implies these were actions taken on a whim. There was great thought given before people resorted to armed struggle, and hard choices were made.

Sierra Oscar

Busted Flat. wrote: »

They were sectarian terroists in uniform.

I am no defender of the RUC.

It is more the fact that SF haven't reconciled with the past that worries me, nor are they attempting to it would seem after tonight's performance. Showing little or no respect towards a different community, putting them on a par with the loyalists themselves.

I don't think I could trust SF in government, and I don't think I am alone. Maybe they will row back tomorrow.

Nodin

boetstark wrote: »

Hi guys New here but a regular reader.
There is no doubt that nationalists got a rough deal in NI. Imagine this scenario, people of Munster decide that we really don't want to be part of ROI. We are different and the destruction of the state as it stands is our aim. Guarantee there would be a backlash..nationalists in NI have been whinging since 1920's about United Ireland and they wonder then??
RUC were a non sectarian force in general, ...............

None of that bears any relation to what actually happened.

Nodin

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I am no defender of the RUC.

It is more the fact that SF haven't reconciled with the past that worries me, nor are they attempting to it would seem after tonight's performance. Showing little or no respect towards a different community, putting them on a par with the loyalists themselves.

I don't think I could trust SF in government, and I don't think I am alone.

What "community"? SF are entirely reconciled with the past by the sounds of things.

Dubhlinner

Busted Flat. wrote: »

They were sectarian terroists in uniform.

Did they think the thousands of loyalists they arrested and had prosecuted were Ra men I guess?

Busted Flat.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is it? They killed unarmed RUC officers or British soldiers whenever they felt like it.

Just in case you are not aware, there was a war going on. Like incidents similar to the My Lai massacre, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ballymurphy, bloody sunday, do I need to go on. WAR. The bullets the corrupt so called security forces are not softer.

boetstark

Nodin wrote: »

None of that bears any relation to what actually happened.

How can you say firstly that Catholics in NI wanting destruction of the state is not similar to my analogy. That was root cause of resentment towards Catholics in NI. Try reading about home rule movement and rise of Ulster volunteers.
Secondly from first hand experience the RUC were not a sectarian force for the most part and only clamped down on terrorists and their cohorts, proper order. Try not to believe the rubbish that is generally written in media and text books here in South.

maryishere

boetstark wrote: »

RUC were a non sectarian force in general, my uncle was an officer and Catholic and I guarantee he never heard a sectarian comment. They were brutal at times no doubt to Provo terrorists and their sympathisers.

Nodin wrote: »

The RUC was not engaged in policing along the lines of arresting the bad and helping cats out of trees. It was an armed sectarian force with a sectarian agenda.

two different opinions. If you think the RUC was not engaged in arresting the bad, why did it arrest thousands of extremist loyalists as well as thousands of extremist republicans during the "troubles"? I am sure in some areas it did help cats out of tress, to the same extent the Gardaí or police anywhere help cats out of trees. A friend of mine a catholic as well went shopping up north during the troubles. He foolishly locked himself out of his car. He approached a nearby ruc man for help and he found him very helpful. So ye get all types.

TOMASJ

maryishere wrote: »

two different opinions. If you think the RUC was not engaged in arresting the bad, why did it arrest thousands of extremist loyalists as well as thousands of extremist republicans during the "troubles"? I am sure in some areas it did help cats out of tress, to the same extent the Gardaí or police anywhere help cats out of trees. A friend of mine a catholic as well went shopping up north during the troubles. He foolishly locked himself out of his car. He approached a nearby ruc man for help and he found him very helpful. So ye get all types.

You friend was lucky he didnt meet the ruc guys involved in the glenanne gang,

maryishere

TOMASJ wrote: »

You friend was lucky he didnt meet the ruc guys involved in the glenanne gang,

far more catholics were killed by the PIRA than by any glenanne gang. I would say however there was the odd bit of collusion in the RUC the same as there was in the Gardaí. When you had tens of thousands of people over the decades, of course there had to be.

TOMASJ

boetstark wrote: »

Hi guys New here but a regular reader.
There is no doubt that nationalists got a rough deal in NI. Imagine this scenario, people of Munster decide that we really don't want to be part of ROI. We are different and the destruction of the state as it stands is our aim. Guarantee there would be a backlash..nationalists in NI have been whinging since 1920's about United Ireland and they wonder then??
RUC were a non sectarian force in general, my uncle was an officer and Catholic and I guarantee he never heard a sectarian comment. They were brutal at times no doubt to Provo terrorists and their sympathisers.
That SF guy on Vincent Brown made me puke, a war is between 2 combatants. Calling IRA volunteers soldiers makes me sick. Anybody who murders defenceless women children and unarmed men are terrorists, nothing better.
We need to start calling a spade a spade in this small island if we are ever to move on.

Thats a wonderful alice in wonderland scenario about munster, but what happened in the six countys is real.

Speaks volumes when you state about whinging nationalist, and your uncle at the same time a patsy in the cops

Regarding killing inocent woman and children did your uncle ever tell you any stories about his pals in the ruc involvment in the murder of women and children,

Google the inquest going on at the moment about the murder with their loyalists friends on old lady sitting watching tv called Roseann mallon colusion and cover up at is best

TOMASJ

maryishere wrote: »

far more catholics were killed by the PIRA than by any glenanne gang..

Not in that small area they operated in, they killed 120 inocent people,

Karl Stein

boetstark wrote: »

Imagine this scenario, people of Munster decide that we really don't want to be part of ROI. We are different and the destruction of the state as it stands is our aim.

What are you on about? Are the people of Munster in this terrible 'analogy' supposed to represent northern Protestants who formed the UVF and threatened to wreak havoc if all Island autonomy was granted by London?

They were brutal at times no doubt to Provo terrorists and their sympathisers.

Who's been telling you these fairy tales? The RUC were beating Catholics to death long before the Provos developed the capability to take on RUC terrorism.

14 July 1969 Francis McCloskey (67) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died one day after being hit on head with batons during street disturbances, Dungiven, County Derry.

17 July 1969 Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry. He was injured on 19 April 1969.

14 August 1969 John Gallagher (30) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Ulster Special Constabulary (USC)
Shot during street disturbances, Cathedral Road, Armagh.

Cain.

We need to start calling a spade a spade in this small island if we are ever to move on.

We certainly do and you need understand that the RUC was a sectarian viper's nest that made the troubles worse and failed miserably as a civilian police service. That's why it was effectively disbanded.

boetstark

Speaks volumes when you state about whinging nationalist, and your uncle at the same time a patsy in the cops
Thank God he had the bravery to be a " Patsy" rather than a murderer in balaclavas that scurried into his rat hole when confronted by opposition armed forces.
Don't care what cause or what part of the world terrorists are evil scrum,

boetstark

Carlos Roca wrote: »

What are you on about? Are the people of Munster in this terrible 'analogy' supposed to represent northern Protestants who formed the UVF and threatened to wreak havoc if all Island autonomy was granted by London?



Who's been telling you these fairy tales? The RUC were beating Catholics to death long before the Provos developed the capability to take on RUC terrorism.







We certainly do and you need understand that the RUC was a sectarian viper's nest that made the troubles worse and failed miserably as a civilian police service. That's why it was effectively disbanded.

Disbanded because the IRA threat was extinguished. The RUC was definitely a more paramilitary style force which was required at the time. Do you mean to tell me that if An Garda met the same crap here in ROI that the "legal force of law and order " met in NI, a heads wouldn't have been cracked.
I know quiet a few ex RUC men and I don't believe that innocents were ever harmed. Sure as you quoted above, but the guy that supports the ITS gunman is no better than the guy who pulls the trigger.

Fratton Fred

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just in case you are not aware, there was a war going on. Like incidents similar to the My Lai massacre, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ballymurphy, bloody sunday, do I need to go on. WAR. The bullets the corrupt so called security forces are not softer.

Deflection, whataboutery etc.

We've just had a week of pant wetting about drive by shootings and collusion but now the shoe is on the other foot, everything's fair in love and war.

golfball37

These two men were legimate targets same as the 3 IRA people in Gibralter and the others in Loughall. It was a war, people were killed.

I'm just flabbergasted that FF still call themselves the republican party after Champ's comments yesterday and some of the musings of their supporters on here.

To throw another red herring into the mix I'd be far more interested to know how many from the Nationalist side lost their lives as a result of information the Gardai passed to the RUC who in turn passed to their handlers in MI5/UDA?

You can bet its far more than two but you can also bet nobody in the Eire political establishment will care, as its not politically expediant to do so.

FTA69

maryishere wrote: »

I would say however there was the odd bit of collusion in the RUC the same as there was in the Gardaí.

And this is why the subject of British collusion is relevant in this particular thread. As seen above, this case is used by those with an agenda to draw a false equivalency with the IRA having a couple of moles in the Guards and a state-sponsored policy of collusion with led to the deaths of hundreds of people. (And was subsequently covered up by the British state.)

The notion that collusion in the north was an "odd occurrence" has long been dispelled.

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

And this is why the subject of British collusion is relevant in this particular thread. As seen above, this case is used by those with an agenda to draw a false equivalency with the IRA having a couple of moles in the Guards and a state-sponsored policy of collusion with led to the deaths of hundreds of people. (And was subsequently covered up by the British state.)

The notion that collusion in the north was an "odd occurrence" has long been dispelled.

So British collusion is wrong, but Irish collusion is to be commended?

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So British collusion is wrong, but Irish collusion is to be commended?

No Fred, all colliusion is wrong,

Just when the colliusion involves the state up to govement level (English) colliusion) thatsworst than colliusion,

that apparently took place with two Garda (Irish colliusion)

Fratton Fred

TOMASJ wrote: »

No Fred, all colliusion is wrong,

Just when the colliusion involves the state up to govement level (English) colliusion) thatsworst than colliusion,

that apparently took place with two Garda (Irish colliusion)

At what point does turning a blind eye become collusion?

How often was a blind eye turned to a bomb factory,.or a truck full of fertiliser heading to the ferry?

alastair

golfball37 wrote: »

These two men were legimate targets same as the 3 IRA people in Gibralter and the others in Loughall. It was a war, people were killed .

Ignoring the business about the troubles being a a war (debatable), there's no equivalence between the murder of the Gibraltar three / Loughall 8 and these policemen. The IRA were 'on active service' - as in preparing attempted murder at that moment. The policemen were just going about their day. On that basis, you presumably believe it would have been perfectly legitimate for the RUC to just murder every known IRA member as they went about their daily business?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Ignoring the business about the troubles being a a war (debatable), there's no equivalence between the murder of the Gibraltar three / Loughall 8 and these policemen. The IRA were 'on active service' - as in preparing attempted murder at that moment. The policemen were just going about their day. On that basis, you presumably believe it would have been perfectly legitimate for the RUC to just murder every known IRA member as they went about their daily business?

Define 'active service' and you have your answer. What do you think they where doing in Dundalk, organising the Christmas party? The RUC meeting with Gardai would have been seen as the RUC on active service by an opposing force.
'Just going about their day'?, brilliant!

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Define 'active service' and you have your answer. What do you think they where doing in Dundalk, organising the Christmas party? The RUC meeting with Gardai would have been seen as the RUC on active service by an opposing force.
'Just going about their day'?, brilliant!

'Active service' is just a term of convenience for attempted murder. The everyday role of the RUC (and yes - that's all they were engaged in) was not one of attempted murder.

golfball37

alastair wrote: »

Ignoring the business about the troubles being a a war (debatable), there's no equivalence between the murder of the Gibraltar three / Loughall 8 and these policemen. The IRA were 'on active service' - as in preparing attempted murder at that moment. The policemen were just going about their day. On that basis, you presumably believe it would have been perfectly legitimate for the RUC to just murder every known IRA member as they went about their daily business?

I do as it happens.

alastair

golfball37 wrote: »

I do as it happens.

That's fair enough then. Luckily that wasn't considered legitimate by the RUC.

golfball37

alastair wrote: »

That's fair enough then. Luckily that wasn't considered legitimate by the RUC.

It would have been preferrable to the route they went down, ie empowering Loyalists and making the conflict far more sectarian tit for tat than it should have been. More innocents died than was necessary.
If the IRA had declared war on the RUC then the RUC should have just met them head on.

alastair

golfball37 wrote: »

It would have been preferrable to the route they went down, ie empowering Loyalists and making the conflict far more sectarian tit for tat than it should have been. More innocents died than was necessary.
If the IRA had declared war on the RUC then the RUC should have just met them head on.

I'm not buying for one moment that the RUC empowered loyalists, thus increasing sectarianism. Sectarianism was extant before, during, and after the troubles - it didn't need any helping by the RUC. And quite how a campaign of murder from the forces of the state would have helped matters somehow escapes me. It wouldn't have made any difference to the underlying issues - as demonstrated by the belated cop-on of the republican armed campaign advocates.

Godge

Just reading Gerry Adams comments for the first time

"When you have that kind of laissez faire disregard for their own security by An Garda Síochána and the RUC…what happened, happens."

Am I the only one here to be horrified by this?

I am not a fan of Alan Shatter but

""I found Gerry Adams' contribution this morning to be nauseating. The truth is you had two respected, senior members of the RUC barbarically murdered in cold blood."

just about hits the nail on the head. You would think that some of the IRA apologists on here would have the decency to lie low for a few days and think carefully before posting the drivel I have read over the last few pages.

As for Padraic MacLochlainn saying they had a duty to kill them, that is just beyond humanity. Does he really represent the views of the people of Donegal North-East?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

'Active service' is just a term of convenience for attempted murder. The everyday role of the RUC (and yes - that's all they were engaged in) was not one of attempted murder.

The OC of the IRA made a different assessment that day and claimed responsibility for it.
The meeting was a rare one for Breen (he had only been across once before), it was not an 'everyday' event and the IRA claimed that they had obtained confidential documents in the car relating to cross border collaboration.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The OC of the IRA made a different assessment that day and claimed responsibility for it.
The meeting was a rare one for Breen (he had only been across once before), it was not an 'everyday' event and the IRA claimed that they had obtained confidential documents in the car relating to cross border collaboration.

Who's disputing that the IRA claimed responsibility? The meeting was a regular arrangement, if not for Breen, then for Buchanan. A meeting, in this case about Slab Murphy's criminal activities. I really don't care about the 'OC's' assessment of the meeting - people can make up their own mind as to the equivalence between an active planned mass murder, or the meeting of two police forces regarding criminality.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The OC of the IRA made a different assessment that day and claimed responsibility for it.
The meeting was a rare one for Breen (he had only been across once before), it was not an 'everyday' event and the IRA claimed that they had obtained confidential documents in the car relating to cross border collaboration.

So they had the car stopped, they had the RUC men waving white flags, they had unfettered access to the documents they wanted but as in the words of Padraic MacLochlainn there was still a duty to kill them?

Come off it, stop defending the indefensible.

Just answer one question, were Gerry Adams and Padraic MacLochlainn correct to say what they said?