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Massaged BER rating. What to do?

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    #62
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    andy1249 wrote: »
    You keep saying this , but you have no evidence that this is the case at all ! Just an opinion of a friend !

    Reread my posts


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    #63
    andy1249
    Registered Users Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭andy1249


    GemmaB wrote: »
    Reread my posts

    Lets recap then shall we ? All are quotes from you posts ....

    Post 1 : Having spoken to the assessor who did the BER in our own house, he feels that there is no way it could be more than an E.

    Post 6 : The assessor we used knows the houses in the estate we're looking at and going by what I told him feels that the BER can't possible be correct and has estimated an E.

    Post 15 : So even though I am 99% sure that the BER is wrong, you think I should just take it lying down. Oh Ireland … this is why we're so f'ed up…

    Post 28 : I believe, and this is only my opinion, that the assessment is incorrect. We have viewed countless houses over the last number of months and although I am not a qualified assessor, you get pretty good at knowing what to expect based on a combination of EA jargon, photoshopped pictures, google earth, the BER, etc. Any other houses with the same rating as this house that we have views have been insulated, have thermostats, etc … i.e. all the things I previously mentioned.

    In other words , you are not qualified to do a BER assessment and have the opinion of someone who is but actually has not done one on the property mentioned ....

    ....yet you still mention fraud .... with no evidence , just hearsay !

    Bottom line , you dont know if the BER for the property is incorrect , you are guessing , so accusations should not be made here !


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    #64
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    andy1249 …


    Have I named anyone or the property? No. So I have therefore not publicly accused anyone.

    From Page 1...
    GemmaB wrote: »
    I may not be qualified but it's not exactly hard to walk up the attic ladder and feel a very thin layer of fibre glass in the roof. It also doesn't take a genius to see low energy bulbs. Nor is a degree required to find a thermostat!

    These observations are obviously irrelevant though because I'm not qualified…

    The constructive responses from other people have been most helpful in advising me that the BER is often done without being onsite, that internal insulation doesn't work (although I disagree based on the difference in my own home having done the work), etc and I have taken all of that on board. But I will not accept that I do not have the right to raise my suspicions with the governing body purely because I am not qualified…

    If a doctor told you there was nothing wrong with you, but you knew there was should you just not bother with a second opinion because you don't have their qualification?


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    #65
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GemmaB wrote: »
    ...If a doctor told you there was nothing wrong with you, but you knew there was should you just not bother with a second opinion because you don't have their qualification?...

    Bad analogy. Witch Doctors or Snake oil salesman might be better.

    Do your own survey.


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    #66
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    GemmaB wrote: »
    andy1249 …


    Have I named anyone or the property? No. So I have therefore not publicly accused anyone.

    From Page 1...



    These observations are obviously irrelevant though because I'm not qualified…

    The constructive responses from other people have been most helpful in advising me that the BER is often done without being onsite, that internal insulation doesn't work (although I disagree based on the difference in my own home having done the work), etc and I have taken all of that on board. But I will not accept that I do not have the right to raise my suspicions with the governing body purely because I am not qualified…

    If a doctor told you there was nothing wrong with you, but you knew there was should you just not bother with a second opinion because you don't have their qualification?


    I think internal insulation could work, but I think it might throw up unseen problems.
    It might aggravate someone, but after having a BER done and an issue made of not having all energy saving light bulbs in places where I didnt even use the lights often, where the most energy use is in heating, and based on no physical examination done, hence only estimation of what materials might be used around the given year of construction, I consider it to be a waste of time and effort, i would place no value in the BER, its just a rough outline, but given the method used to determine it, you could easily say houses built in x year to y year are all D or E or whatever value rated unless they have had additional remedial insulation work or windows upgraded. In essence it was a money spinner.


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    #67
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Find a different house


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    #68
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You'll have to do your own survey what ever the house.


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    #69
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    beauf wrote: »
    You'll have to do your own survey what ever the house.

    Yes I'm aware of that thanks!


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    #70
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    Find a different house

    We've been looking for months and this is the house we love hence why we 're trying to buy it. As I've said many times already the BER is not detering us from buying it... I'm just peeved that's it's clearly BS .. The whole thing not just the report on this house...


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    #71
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    OP,
    I've just read this thread and I must say I am amazed at some of the bullsh1t being put about by some contributors.
    To highlight a couple:
    To say that a ber assessor is not required to physically survey and gather evidence of an existing house is wrong.
    To say that a ber assessment is mainly based on the opinion of the assessor and therefore cannot be challenged is wrong. There are clear and detailed rules and guidelines that assessors must adhere to in order to generate the rating.
    Having said all this, I am not in any way endorsing the BER system and, as an engineer who was one of the original assessors registered with SEAI back in 2006, think that the whole system should be scrapped and a proper rating system be introduced.

    As I understand your situation, you are going to try to purchase this house as it ticks most of your boxes anyway but think the ber assessment is somewhat wrong in overstating the rating.
    As you may be aware, in order to be a registered assessor, the assessor needs to provide SEAI with proof that they have PI insurance cover. After you purchase you can have the house re-assessed and if the new result is grossly different to the published one (as you believe) you may consider suing the assessor for negligence. This will have definite repercussions for the assessor and possibly SEAI.

    Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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    #72
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GemmaB wrote: »
    Yes I'm aware of that thanks!

    My comment wasn't directed at you GB but at the idea of going for a different house would solve the BER problem. it won't because you can't rely on it. Of course you could argue that some puts up a deliberately misleading BER might also similar with other issues.


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    #73
    makeorbrake
    Registered Users Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    GemmaB wrote: »
    Thank you for taking the time to respond but maybe I have been unclear … let me try again...

    1. I understand how to buy a house & how bidding works.
    Ok, great - but is that not your primary purpose here? I just think you are getting yourself sidetracked unnecessarily. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you - but from what I can work out, you are frustrated that as a BER rating may be inaccurate or misleading, others are bidding above you on a property you want.

    GemmaB wrote: »
    2. I never said that we won't buy the house because of this. I merely wanted to hear other people's thoughts on what to do about a suspicious BER. (The fact that everyone on here believes the BER to be a pile of pants is interesting but still does not answer the question I raised about what to do with a BER that we and another qualified assessor believe to be way off.)
    A couple of things...

    Way back when it first came on the scene, I did all the training courses for BER Assessor - and registered as one (albeit that I never followed through and practiced as an assessor). You could get two assessors to assess the same property and they may very well come up with different ratings. The assessors are not to blame for this. They can only work within the parameters set.

    Your assessor suggested that it should come in higher on the scale - but he can't possibly know without actually going and assessing it.


    Over and above all of this, your placing far too much emphasis on the BER. It's merely a guideline - an indicator - and its a rough indicator at that.


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    #74
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    GemmaB wrote: »
    It meets every other need we have so it's not a deal breaker and we did tell the SEAI as per my original post and we were basically told where to go and fobbed off...
    You have spotted this f**k up; I'd wonder what else they lied about?


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    #75
    makeorbrake
    Registered Users Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    the_syco wrote: »
    You have spotted this f**k up; I'd wonder what else they lied about?
    Who lied about what? If you mean the vendor, they're not responsible for the BER that was produced.


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    #76
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    makeorbrake wrote: »
    Who lied about what? If you mean the vendor, they're not responsible for the BER that was produced.

    The problem to me seems to be that noone is held responsible ... The vendor who hires the assessor, the actual assessor nor the governing body. It's really just a pile of bs that is really just a tax on sellers.


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    #77
    GemmaB
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭GemmaB


    MicktheMan wrote: »
    OP,
    I've just read this thread and I must say I am amazed at some of the bullsh1t being put about by some contributors.
    To highlight a couple:
    To say that a ber assessor is not required to physically survey and gather evidence of an existing house is wrong.
    To say that a ber assessment is mainly based on the opinion of the assessor and therefore cannot be challenged is wrong. There are clear and detailed rules and guidelines that assessors must adhere to in order to generate the rating.

    ...

    As I understand your situation, you are going to try to purchase this house as it ticks most of your boxes anyway but think the ber assessment is somewhat wrong in overstating the rating.
    As you may be aware, in order to be a registered assessor, the assessor needs to provide SEAI with proof that they have PI insurance cover. After you purchase you can have the house re-assessed and if the new result is grossly different to the published one (as you believe) you may consider suing the assessor for negligence. This will have definite repercussions for the assessor and possibly SEAI.

    Best of luck with whatever you decide.

    Thank you ... You eloquently put across my feelings and I'm glad to see that someone else believes I can actually do something about this down the line!

    We're due to go sale agreed today which we're delighted about!


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    #78
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    makeorbrake wrote: »
    Who lied about what? If you mean the vendor, they're not responsible for the BER that was produced.
    Although the BER is not something to cause the price to raise, it is something that would get people in the door to look at the property (personally, I'd filter out F, and possibly some E houses), and thus I'd wonder how much the figure was massaged?

    The OP has gone sale agreed, and I hope they go the whole surveyor route. If they do get another assessor in to look at the BER, they may be able to use the new findings to help haggle the price down a bit, along with anything else in the house.


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    #79
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    the_syco wrote: »
    If they do get another assessor in to look at the BER, they may be able to use the new findings to help haggle the price down a bit, along with anything else in the house.

    They won't be able to haggle down based on the BER. The seller will tell them to feck off and go to the next bidder.


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    #80
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Just to add to the BER's are a farce ammo... When we were selling a house the BER thing was new. Loads of people were newly 'qualified' BER assessors. So, unknowns to eachother, myself and husband both booked BER assessors on special introductory offers. Non-refundable, so we went ahead with them anyway.

    I expected some kind of scientific heat emitter, which would measure temperature depletion after a certain amount of time. Nope. They asked what we *thought* the sq footage of the house was, asked what age the boiler was (we had no idea, was in the house before we bought it), and counted the light bulbs.

    Second assessor was the same deal, but I took every light bulb out of every fitting in the house in advance.

    1st assessor came back with D1, second assessor B3. Their base assumptions were just drastically different.

    That's with no physical changes to the house, whatsoever. We obviously listed the house under a B3 rating when selling.

    It's a swizz. Pure and simple.


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    #81
    makeorbrake
    Registered Users Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭makeorbrake


    GemmaB wrote: »
    The problem to me seems to be that noone is held responsible ... The vendor who hires the assessor, the actual assessor nor the governing body. It's really just a pile of bs that is really just a tax on sellers.

    The vendor can't possibly be held accountable - although I think you would accept that.
    Cut the assessor some slack. He/she can only work within the parameters of the assessment criteria. The fact is that it is a very very rough indicator and should be treated as such.
    The governing body: Remember that this all came about as a result of the need to comply with european regulations. That sets out some of the fundamentals of the BER. I would be loathe to defend a government quango but the reality is that the basis on which the BER is set is fundamentally flawed from the outset.

    Acceptance that BER is a rough, flawed mechanism is the best step to take. Don't burn any further energy on any other approach as it will not serve you or any of the other stakeholders involved.


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    #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    GemmaB wrote: »
    ... It's really just a pile of bs that is really just a tax on sellers.

    That its entirely. Its a tax on sellers and Landlords. It also is misleading for tenants and buyers.


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    #83
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    MicktheMan wrote: »
    OP,
    I've just read this thread and I must say I am amazed at some of the bullsh1t being put about by some contributors.
    To highlight a couple:
    To say that a ber assessor is not required to physically survey and gather evidence of an existing house is wrong.

    It happens though.


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    #84
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    It happens though.

    Did I say it doesn't happen?


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