Parliamentary Question from main thread. Split out.

Sparks

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26 November 2013:

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
505. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his views on correspondence (details supplied) regarding the approval for use of silencers on rifles; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50541/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

Under Section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990, a silencer for a non-restricted rifle must be authorised by a Superintendent of An Garda Síochána of the District in which the applicant resides. The Superintendent must be satisfied that granting such an application will not endanger public safety or the peace and that the applicant has a special need that is, in the opinion of the Superintendent, sufficient to justify the granting of an authorisation for a silencer.

A decision to grant or refuse an authorisation for a silencer rests solely with the Superintendent of the District where the applicant resides, and for each application a Superintendent can take account of a broad range of factors.

The Garda Commissioner's Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, available on the website www.garda.ie, provides guidance on the issue. As a decision maker under the Firearms Acts, a Superintendent is independent in the carrying out of his functions, and I as Minister have no role in the decision making process.

Neck like a jockey's proverbials, that particular TD...

tac foley

Anybody with a superior grasp of English to my own advise me how possession of a moderator can 'endanger public safety or the peace'?

I'm listening.

tac

Sparks

You might ask the Garda's ballistics section tac, I'm certain they'll have an answer...


(said answer may or may not make sense, of course...)

tac foley

We are talking here about the crew who advised one august bunch of committees and organisations at a shooting high-muck-a-muck meetup that the .308Win cartridge was lethally accurate right out to five miles?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Reminds me about the McGillicuddy stories my da used to tell me, about the hero giant McGillicuddy, who was soooooooooooooooooo strong that he could put his fingers in his ears and hold himself out at arm's length for an entire day.

tac

tomtucker81

I think theres a common belief that they outright silence the gun. As seen in use in james bond films. And therefore they're malicious, dangerous items. Why would a fella want or need one?

Anyway. ...why did healy rae raise this question?

Sparks

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Anyway. ...why did healy rae raise this question?

Most written questions like this get raised because a constituent (or even just Joe Random Public) asked the TD to do so - given the phrasing of the question, that looks to be exactly what happened here.

Sparks

27 November 2013:

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
154. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the total number of restricted handguns currently licensed to sports persons here; the total number of non-restricted handguns currently licensed to sports persons; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50882/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

As of 20 November 2013, the number of non restricted firearm certificates for handguns is 949 and the number of restricted firearm certificates for handguns is 549. Since 1 August 2009, applicants seeking to license handguns in the State must first satisfy the issuing person of his/her membership of an authorised rifle or pistol club. I am keeping firearms legislation under review, with the issue of public safety as paramount.

BattleCorp

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
154. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the total number of restricted handguns currently licensed to sports persons here; the total number of non-restricted handguns currently licensed to sports persons; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50882/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

As of 20 November 2013, the number of non restricted firearm certificates for handguns is 949 and the number of restricted firearm certificates for handguns is 549. Since 1 August 2009, applicants seeking to license handguns in the State must first satisfy the issuing person of his/her membership of an authorised rifle or pistol club. I am keeping firearms legislation under review, with the issue of public safety as paramount.

Why would a TD be asking the minister how many handguns are licenced? What use would the TD have for needing to know how many licenced handguns are out there? Is he planning to mount a campaign against handgun ownership?

And why would a minister add "I am keeping firearms legislation under review, with the issue of public safety as paramount." onto the end of his statement?

There is no issue surrounding public safety from licenced handgun holders. No accidents, no crimes being committed with them, etc etc. There is no issue.

Jerrystevens

BattleCorp wrote: »

There is no issue surrounding public safety from licenced handgun holders. No accidents, no crimes being committed with them, etc etc. There is no issue.

i know one of the lads in the ARU and his and quite a few of his superiors view is simple, if there are no legally held centerfire pistols in the state there is not any legally held /available ammunition therefore it's not available to criminals it's easy to smuggle a pistol into the state it's not so simple for ammunition sniffer dogs etc can pick it up too easily

BattleCorp

Jerrystevens wrote: »

i know one of the lads in the ARU and his and quite a few of his superiors view is simple, if there are no legally held centerfire pistols in the state there is not any legally held /available ammunition therefore it's not available to criminals it's easy to smuggle a pistol into the state it's not so simple for ammunition sniffer dogs etc can pick it up too easily

I think that view is clutching at straws.

The drugs are able to make it into the state and sniffer dogs etc can detect them. If the drugs make it in, so will the ammo and the illegal pistols.

Getting rid of the legally held pistols does only one thing, punish law abiding owners who behave themselves, obey all the rules and take part in a sport that they love.


Just one other point: Are you saying that those people in the ARU believe that the criminals are getting their ammo from licenced pistol owners?

juice1304

Jerrystevens wrote: »

i know one of the lads in the ARU and his and quite a few of his superiors view is simple, if there are no legally held centerfire pistols in the state there is not any legally held /available ammunition therefore it's not available to criminals it's easy to smuggle a pistol into the state it's not so simple for ammunition sniffer dogs etc can pick it up too easily

They obviously haven't thought about the fact that it is easy enough to licence a centerfire pistol in northern Ireland so therefore ammunition would still be available to them by means of stealing it etc...

Witcher

Man alive...now the guards are suggesting that the people that they themselves vet as suitable to possess a firearm are secretly supplying criminals with ammunition:pac: Either that or criminals are stealing it from dealers..haven't heard of any dealers being done over in a while so it must be the former that they're suggesting.

I don't think criminals bring the bulk of their drugs in through the ports so the doggies won't be sniffing out drugs or ammo. Look at the bales that washed up that time in Cork, wouldn't be hard to bring in a crate of firearms with an order like that and the same again in ammo. That's only the one they found too, think how many are actually making it in. There are drugs on the streets so the borders aren't as tight as the Gardai suggest. But we're still secretly to blame anyway..if we're not out there doing wrong ourselves we're giving others the capacity to do so apparently:pac: You just can't catch a break here:p

rowa

Blay wrote: »

But we're still secretly to blame anyway..if we're not out there doing wrong ourselves we're giving others the capacity to do so apparently.:pac:

Yes, i agree and to my mind anytime i have had any dealings with the gardai to do with firearms or firearms licencing, i feel i am treated with thinly veiled suspicion. The senior gardai must have the same mindset as Joe Mc Carthy had in the 50's, everyone is a red under the bed.

yubabill1

I blame the gardai for not controlling the druggies.

this country has become infested with drug dealers over the last 10-15 years and the gardai have failed to stop it.

Easier to bash us rather than the druggies, by the look of it.

rowa

yubabill1 wrote: »

I blame the gardai for not controlling the druggies.

this country has become infested with drug dealers over the last 10-15 years and the gardai have failed to stop it.

Easier to bash us rather than the druggies, by the look of it.

Its not the gardai at fault but the courts/judges. Spending a day in a court is a real eye opener, lowlife with dozens of previous convictions getting suspended sentences or slaps on the wrist. The judiciary don't live in the real world, its all dalkey or clontarf and the law library to them.

tac foley

yubabill1 wrote: »

I blame the gardai for not controlling the druggies.

this country has become infested with drug dealers over the last 10-15 years and the gardai have failed to stop it.

Easier to bash us rather than the druggies, by the look of it.

Trouble is, AGS/UK police know where ALL of us are, but only have the vaguest notion where the drug-dealers are.

Unlike us, with our gun licenses, they don't apply for a license to deal in illegal substances.

tac

Grizzly 45

Jerrystevens wrote: »

i know one of the lads in the ARU and his and quite a few of his superiors view is simple, if there are no legally held centerfire pistols in the state there is not any legally held /available ammunition therefore it's not available to criminals it's easy to smuggle a pistol into the state it's not so simple for ammunition sniffer dogs etc can pick it up too easily

Talking out of their collective holes quite frankly!!!Also they'd want to still view whats the most common gun still used in crime here,its still the sawn off shotgun.
Ammo freely available from just about anywhere in the world including Ireland.
This is a typical attitude of these so called "elite units" in both the army and police forces worldwide..Because of their "elite " training they know best and no one else is capable of doing anything right at all ,least of all "mere civillians".:rolleyes:
Simply called blinded by their own arrogance and tunnel vision.

Also that's a pretty serious allegation to make ...Is he suggesting that there is somone in the shooting community supplying criminals with ammo??Nor does it say much for theirdogs detection capability... Cant smell an AK coming in but can smell a box of bullets???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Go train your mutts properly then,anywhere else the customs can train their dogs to smell paper money,bullets,drugs and arms.All in the ONE dog.

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Its not the gardai at fault but the courts/judges. Spending a day in a court is a real eye opener, lowlife with dozens of previous convictions getting suspended sentences or slaps on the wrist. The judiciary don't live in the real world, its all dalkey or clontarf and the law library to them.

They get an awful rap for a thankless job too, after talking to one retired judge,he said they have very limited options as well...Like where are they going to put these people??We haven't got enough jail spaces,and the second problem is they admit it themselves the law is an ass ,they just administer it to the best of their ability, not make it.Granted he said there are ,have been and will be always screwups in the system and they admit it too.Anything involving fallabile humans will have this.So whats a judge to do if the law states almost hard labour for a year for not paying a TV liscense,but because you were caught with 50k worth of coke and have been on remand for six months,that has to be taken off the sentence and you were a good fellah on remand too that has to be taken into account,and because of the literally stacking up of criminals in our long not fit for purpose jails and the human rights crowd braying about eight people in a cell fit for two.
Not everyone has "the State holiday camp experiance" either,and TBH compared to the rest of Europe our jail system and prisioner keeping is Dickensian conditions.
They have to let people out on remand.
All in all its a symptom of the disease,not the actual disease itself.:(

bravestar

Shocking amount of hearsay lads... I doubt the Garda ASU (air support unit) made any comment on firearms. I'll guess you mean RSU (regional support unit), since they are armed.

Still, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, or b@tching fest. I'm sure that's the attitude you all have when dealing with your local FO when you want a new license.

Grizzly 45

bravestar wrote: »

Shocking amount of hearsay lads... I doubt the Garda ASU (air support unit) made any comment on firearms. I'll guess you mean RSU (regional support unit), since they are armed.

Still, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, or b@tching fest. I'm sure that's the attitude you all have when dealing with your local FO when you want a new license.

You might want to ask BS WHY there "the attitude" there in the first place???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Give an attitude ,you'll get an attiude back is an old street saying.
BTW how come the lot down in this part of the world[Munster] have Armed Support Unit written on their Volvo ???

bravestar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You might want to ask BS WHY there "the attitude" there in the first place???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Give an attitude ,you'll get an attiude back is an old street saying.
BTW how come the lot down in this part of the world[Munster] have Armed Support Unit written on their Volvo ???

There are far more FO's out there doing a good job without any "attitude", than there are bad ones.

By writing "armed", they are not confused with unarmed Gardai. Regional Support Unit does not explicitly state that they are armed. Dont blame me, I didnt make up the name, but they are known as the RSU. (G)ASU is the Garda Air Support Unit. Now how about we talk about the words clip and magazine being used interchangeably

Grizzly 45

Wasnt really thinking of the FO's and others on the frontline BS.
Was thinking more of those whose beats consist of a large desk and whatever appointments are in their filo faxes.Or I phones I guess these days. Or those who got some ninja training with some crowd out foreign and think they are the dogs goolies because of it who have a" major attitude".
No such thing as bad men,just bad officers leading them.;)

tac foley

Grizzly 45 - I understand from the comments that the FOs in Ireland are regular police officers - do I have that right?

Is that their primary duty, or are they just joe'd to do it as and when required?

If so, do they have any particular specialist training in the various aspects of shooting sports? Are they members of gun clubs or shooters themselves?

BTW, here in yUK, when selecting police officers for training as members of Armed Response Units, no current or former member of a gun club is allowed to apply. This is so that the police firearms instructors can instil the police method of police tactical firearms use without the trainee shooter having any preconceived notions.

tac

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You might want to ask BS WHY there "the attitude" there in the first place???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Give an attitude ,you'll get an attiude back is an old street saying.
BTW how come the lot down in this part of the world[Munster] have Armed Support Unit written on their Volvo ???

:eek:

And targeted instantly by the bad guys - whoever they might be. :mad:

tac

bravestar

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Wasnt really thinking of the FO's and others on the frontline BS.
Was thinking more of those whose beats consist of a large desk and whatever appointments are in their filo faxes.Or I phones I guess these days. Or those who got some ninja training with some crowd out foreign and think they are the dogs goolies because of it who have a" major attitude".
No such thing as bad men,just bad officers leading them.;)

Amen to that.

Tac, an FO here is any Garda or sergeant who is unlucky enough to be told, your handling firearms apps now, suck it up! I'll send you a pm in relation to your other questions if you want... Public forum etc.

tac foley

bravestar wrote: »

Amen to that.

Tac, an FO here is any Garda or sergeant who is unlucky enough to be told, your handling firearms apps now, suck it up! I'll send you a pm in relation to your other questions if you want... Public forum etc.

Thanks for that.

As for the other part, only if you care to do so, I'm not after gubmint secrets.

Best

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Grizzly 45 - I understand from the comments that the FOs in Ireland are regular police officers - do I have that right?

Is that their primary duty, or are they just joe'd to do it as and when required?

If so, do they have any particular specialist training in the various aspects of shooting sports? Are they members of gun clubs or shooters themselves?

BTW, here in yUK, when selecting police officers for training as members of Armed Response Units, no current or former member of a gun club is allowed to apply. This is so that the police firearms instructors can instil the police method of police tactical firearms use without the trainee shooter having any preconceived notions.

tac

Brave Star will/has answered most of that for you.:)

The last paragraph though...Bloddeeeee HELL!!!:eek:
you'd thunk they would be the FIRST crowd you'd want in the door,as they will hopefully come with some basic firearms knowledge and the heads screwed on with basic firearms safety and enthausism for the job.
Does this explain some of the more serious and farsical ,if they wont so serious escapeds of the Coppers with firearms in the UK over the years??
Maybe they should take a leaf from across the pond from us colonials:) and start employing EX military service personel. Lot less training required,[bar maybe housebreaking:)]

yubabill1

They get an awful rap for a thankless job too, after talking to one retired judge,he said they have very limited options as well...

The system has failed the citizens.

Gardai have been given enormous powers in the last 15 years, including summary justice at the roadside, not to mention generous salary increases. They are empowered and paid to address the drug problem and they have failed.

Someone should tell the liberals an old quote;

"Anyone who gives up freedom for security deserves neither"

I remember being able to count on habeas corpus, privacy and freedom of association even during the darkest days of the Troubles here.

rowa

yubabill1 wrote: »

T

They are empowered and paid to address the drug problem and they have failed.

Sorry, but this is simply incorrect. For example the gardai have transformed limerick in the past couple of years, the best part of three families of "gentlemen" who terrified that city, are all tonight in portlaoise for a very long time. The problem is its like peeling an onion, you get rid of one lot and there is the next generation of even more vicious scum waiting to take over.
The problem i have with the Gardai is the uneven and unfair handling of firearms applications, normally handled by a sergeant and super/chief super, who sometimes behave as if they are little tinpot gods.

bravestar

yubabill1 wrote: »

The system has failed the citizens.

Gardai have been given enormous powers in the last 15 years, including summary justice at the roadside, not to mention generous salary increases. They are empowered and paid to address the drug problem and ...

"Powers" don't help when the courts let them off or there is no car to attend a scene. FCPS fines at the roadside Do nothing to curb serious crime. People don't pay fines, get days in default and are let out a after a few hours because there is no room at the inn etc

It never ceases to amaze me how some people think they know how to do the job of a Garda. Would you assume to tell your plumber, electrician, builder, carpenter, travel agent, solicitor, postman, fireman, nurse or doctor how to do their job?

The only part of your post that makes sense is the opening line... The system has failed the citizens.

Grizzly 45

bravestar wrote: »

"Powers" don't help when the courts let them off or there is no car to attend a scene. FCPS fines at the roadside Do nothing to curb serious crime. People don't pay fines, get days in default and are let out a after a few hours because there is no room at the inn etc

So is this now the fault of;
a] The Judicary
b] The Gardai
c] Irish society
d] All of the above

I

t never ceases to amaze me how some people think they know how to do the job of a Garda. Would you assume to tell your plumber, electrician, builder, carpenter, travel agent, solicitor, postman, fireman, nurse or doctor how to do their job?

Shure thats a national Irish pastime!!:p:pTelling people how to do their job!

Think the reason AGS and police worldwide get more sthick is simply because society grants them the power of enforceing the law with force if necessary and that gives police more powers over the average citizen,and when those that have the power are precived to be seen as not doing or being helpless against an element of societyor turning a blind eye to the carry on of certain doings of the "respectable class",and looks like going after the "soft option" like car tax,gun liscensing,... whatever.Society has a natural tendency to play the blame game.

Especially in a small society like Ireland where being a Gaurd was considerd as being a "safe & respectable" career choice on par with being a civil servant or priest,with the possibility of perks,secure payment,pension.All long gone by the wayside I know,but the image still stays with Paddy Murphy out there.
Those two supports of Irish society have been found to be VERY rotten to the core.Globally people are "questioning authorithy" and whether they like it or not police forces have to become more accountable to its taxpayer in democracies.We are slowly waking up to rhat concept here in Ireland,more or less. AGS is changing ,but looks like from the outside fighting every last inch of it,which makes people think that they really have something to hide.
Thats my take of it.

The only part of your post that makes sense is the opening line... The system has failed the citizens

.

But who is responsible for the system?? That is us,the people. If we continue to elect village idiots and school teachers to repersent us ,and allow our police force to have draconian powers and allow our society to run amuck,and allow ourselves to be run by foreign powers because said village idiots to write private gambling debt into the national debt.
WE ONLY HAVE OURSELVES TO BLAME!

Ben Franklin was dead right.A society truly gets the Govt it deserves.