NUIG suspends Legion of Mary college society

jank

Cabaal wrote: »

So any group should still have the right to have documents etc that say a group of people they don't like should be killed. Do you support even this right, I take it you do?

Outside of getting the courts getting involved.

Outside of the courts? You mean we should make up laws outside of the constitution and courts?

I have already dealt with that question in my last post seeing as its the same question you asked previously.

jank

Peregrinus wrote: »

We don't know that any group has been banned here, do we? What has happened is that the NUI LoM has lost recognition as a student society, meaning (presumably) that it no longer has access to funding and other material support. But I've not heard any suggestion that students are banned from joining, attending meetings or the like. There's a world of difference between not funding a group, and banning it.

I think we are engaging in hypothetical situations here far outside the realm of the NUIG. At least that is my understanding of it.

Turtwig

jank wrote: »

I think we are engaging in hypothetical situations here far outside the realm of the NUIG. At least that is my understanding of it.

This was also my understanding of it too.

RickyOFlaherty

Sad to see the Legion of Mary getting embroiled in this - because my understanding is that the organisation does not engage in debates on topics of homosexuality, abortion etc. It is not what the Legion is about. The Legion does not fundraise, it does not collect money for causes, not has it ever leant its support financially or officially to the pro-life, or any other campaigns of the like.

Not exactly sure what happened here - but it would not be representative of the official view of the legion - which is basically dedicated to deepening its members' spirituality through a devotion to Mary. Sounds like it was someone who is part of the legion going on a solo run.

But don't let the facts get in the way of having a few cheap shots (whiskey, wine, whatever) at the Legion.

Cabaal

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

Sad to see the Legion of Mary getting embroiled in this - because my understanding is that the organisation does not engage in debates on topics of homosexuality, abortion etc. It is not what the Legion is about. The Legion does not fundraise, it does not collect money for causes, not has it ever leant its support financially or officially to the pro-life, or any other campaigns of the like.

Not exactly sure what happened here - but it would not be representative of the official view of the legion - which is basically dedicated to deepening its members' spirituality through a devotion to Mary. Sounds like it was someone who is part of the legion going on a solo run.

But don't let the facts get in the way of having a few cheap shots (whiskey, wine, whatever) at the Legion.

Fair enough if thats the case, but surely the LOM would be very clearly speaking out about how it doesn't reflect them...if that was the case?

RickyOFlaherty

Cabaal wrote: »

Fair enough if thats the case, but surely the LOM would be very clearly speaking out about how it doesn't reflect them...if that was the case?

I'm not sure if they would even want to get involved in the whole thing as it is not an official group of the Legion who made these posters and it does not represent the Legion viewpoint in any official way. Perhaps, even coming out and commenting further on it, would just be adding to it. Just guessing though. It is not a professionally run organisation - it is run by lay people on a voluntary basis and receives no funding from the government nor does it fund-raise or employ professional staff like press contact people.

robindch

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

But don't let the facts get in the way of having a few cheap shots (whiskey, wine, whatever) at the Legion.

Well, do feel free to contact the LOM and ask them to clarify.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of taking cheap shots when the only information that posters have access to are media reports and the reported actions of the LOM, the SU and others which, in all fairness, do paint a fairly clear picture.

RickyOFlaherty

robindch wrote: »

Well, do feel free to contact the LOM and ask them to clarify.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of taking cheap shots when the only information that posters have access to are media reports and the reported actions of the LOM, the SU and others which, in all fairness, do paint a fairly clear picture.

As I mentioned above, it is an organisation run by voluntary lay people. With no press officer and who do not get involved in expressing viewpoints about issues like this.

But do base your clear picture on the media reports - and not on facts. Of course the media are going to pounce on this story - I'm not going down the road of suggesting a liberal bias etc, but a story like this in Ireland is going to sell news, as people will be titillated by it.

Sarky

What exactly do you think the LOM were going for when they advertised reparative therapy on campus? Are you suggesting they were unaware that it was bogus pseudoscience that only ever harms people when they put up the posters advertising it?

Cabaal

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

As I mentioned above, it is an organisation run by voluntary lay people. With no press officer and who do not get involved in expressing viewpoints about issues like this.

But do base your clear picture on the media reports - and not on facts. Of course the media are going to pounce on this story - I'm going down the road of suggesting a liberal bias etc, but a story like this in Ireland is going to sell news, as people will be titillated by it.

http://www.legionofmary.ie/contact/

Contact section only states they may take awhile to get back to them, I'm sure they'd gladly give a response to confirm they have nothing to do with the rebel LOM in NUIG if thats the case.

Until then their decision to remain silent doesn't do them any favors.

curious, how exactly can the LOM have a different view of gays when the books the read and follow say its a sin to be gay?

robindch

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

But do base your clear picture on the media reports - and not on facts.

If you're suggesting that media reports are inaccurate, then I think you should (a) avoid insinuating that posters here in A+A are interested in this story because of tired, cliche'd tropes like "liberal bias" and realize that in the absence of any other correcting information from the LOM, that this is all that people here have to go on. And (b) actually substantiate your claims instead of just declaring them.

As I said above, do feel free to contact them yourself to correct whatever facts are wrong.

Turtwig

robindch wrote: »

Well, do feel free to contact the LOM and ask them to clarify.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people of taking cheap shots when the only information that posters have access to are media reports and the reported actions of the LOM, the SU and others which, in all fairness, do paint a fairly clear picture.

To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people may have mistaken the Soc of NUIG for a whole Legion. So there's an onus on us as well to ensure the criticisms are legit and aimed at the right people. Especially, in this era of flat earth news.

Also judging by the way the sentence is phrased I think there's a typo and the sentence meant "I'm not going down the road suggesting a liberal bias, but. . ."
Will await clarification though.

RickyOFlaherty

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.legionofmary.ie/contact/

Contact section only states they may take awhile to get back to them, I'm sure they'd gladly give a response to confirm they have nothing to do with the rebel LOM in NUIG if thats the case.

Until then their decision to remain silent doesn't do them any favors.

curious, how exactly can the LOM have a different view of gays when the books the read and follow say its a sin to be gay?

They do not have an official view as in they are not involved in trying to persuade people regarding changing state laws on gay marriage, abortion etc. or fund-raise for these causes e.g. like Youth Defence.

And.. I actually posted a link

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/legion-of-mary-denies-role-in-anti-gay-poster-1.1618502

"The Legion of Mary headquarters in Dublin said it “knew nothing” about the poster or the Courage Community group. It said it had “no contact” with the college’s branch on the issue."

gaynorvader

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

They do not have an official view as in they are not involved in trying to persuade people regarding changing state laws on gay marriage, abortion etc. or fund-raise for these causes e.g. like Youth Defence.

And.. I actually posted a link

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/legion-of-mary-denies-role-in-anti-gay-poster-1.1618502

"The Legion of Mary headquarters in Dublin said it “knew nothing” about the poster or the Courage Community group. It said it had “no contact” with the college’s branch on the issue."

I don't condemn the LoM for the actions of one group using their name in Galway, but that quote is extremely questionable. They quote 2 words in each case. I'd like to see more context to see if they were distancing themselves from the whole NUIG society or just the views presented on that poster.

RickyOFlaherty

robindch wrote: »

If you're suggesting that media reports are inaccurate, then I think you should (a) avoid insinuating that posters here in A+A are interested in this story because of tired, cliche'd tropes like "liberal bias" and realize that in the absence of any other correcting information from the LOM, that this is all that people here have to go on. And (b) actually substantiate your claims instead of just declaring them.

As I said above, do feel free to contact them yourself to correct whatever facts are wrong.

Not sure how you interpreted me calling everyone in A+A being liberally biased - I said the general public would be titillated by a story involving the Legion of Mary and anti-gay posters. I'm not suggesting that the media have a liberal bias - but the monetary aspect of news, means that the media was going to run with the story without checking facts.

And just to repeat - the Irish times article said the LOM HQ knew nothing about the posters - ie. probably some solo run by some student involved in the LOM at a local level

Cabaal

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

They do not have an official view as in they are not involved in trying to persuade people regarding changing state laws on gay marriage, abortion etc. or fund-raise for these causes e.g. like Youth Defence.

They might want to control their members abit if thats the case

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/abortion-is-un-christian-231271.html
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/contradicting-christianity

The chap in question is clearly very involved with the LOM as confirmed very easily via google.

SmilingLurker

I question anyone who is against a liberal bias. Willingness to tolerate and accept opinions and views different to ones own is not a bad thing.

I have a unashamed liberal bias.

The LOM should openly distance itself from their NUIG branch. They should also distance themselves from the unjustifiable stance the RCC takes against gay people.

Being a member of an organization means you should agree with what they stand for or openly campaign for change. If an organization I was a member of put up a poster like that I would be ashamed enough to leave.

A simple solution would be for the LOM to say that poster was abhorrent, apologize and say it will not happen again. Clarify their views, and the news cycle will get bored and go away.

Benny_Cake

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

Sad to see the Legion of Mary getting embroiled in this - because my understanding is that the organisation does not engage in debates on topics of homosexuality, abortion etc. It is not what the Legion is about. The Legion does not fundraise, it does not collect money for causes, not has it ever leant its support financially or officially to the pro-life, or any other campaigns of the like.

That's my understanding too, and I strongly suspect a solo run, but the Legion really should make a statement of some sort. These things don't go away, not anymore. Given that the organisation has attracted a broad range of Catholics in the past, being associated in the public mind with a group such as "Courage" isn't going to do them any good.

Brian Shanahan

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

"The Legion of Mary headquarters in Dublin said it “knew nothing” about the poster or the Courage Community group. It said it had “no contact” with the college’s branch on the issue."

That reads more like "oh ****, what have we let ourselves in for with this one. Wait only the NUIG branch have pushed this, so just tell everybody else to kill it and we'll disavow any knowledge."

You see the "courage" crowd have been endorsed at the 2nd highest level by the rcc, so not having any knowledge of them or their activities is very disingenious of the loM.

RickyOFlaherty

SmilingLurker wrote: »

I question anyone who is against a liberal bias. Willingness to tolerate and accept opinions and views different to ones own is not a bad thing.

I have a unashamed liberal bias.

The LOM should openly distance itself from their NUIG branch. They should also distance themselves from the unjustifiable stance the RCC takes against gay people.

Being a member of an organization means you should agree with what they stand for or openly campaign for change. If an organization I was a member of put up a poster like that I would be ashamed enough to leave.

A simple solution would be for the LOM to say that poster was abhorrent, apologize and say it will not happen again. Clarify their views, and the news cycle will get bored and go away.

Any sort of "bias" in the media is unashamedly not reflecting the facts though. However, I did not suggest there is a bias in this story - on the contrary, I said the pure titillation of this story is why it became news.

I'm practising Catholic - but I would be of the view that the State and Church should be separate. I also think the State should not really be involved in defining regulating marriages either .. a civil partnership is a legal arrangement between two adults which both the Church and the State should have minimal involvement in. Catholic Church is entitled though to define its own rules for a religious marriage ceremony. I guess that makes me unashamedly liberal too or libertarian? (not sure about the label)

Regarding, your second comment - (repeating myself) the LOM said they had nothing to do with the poster.
You hardly expect the LOM as a Catholic lay organisation to "distance themselves from the unjustifiable stance the RCC takes against gay people".

I'm pretty sure there will be no further statement from the LOM HQ - they did not sponsor the poster and they are not going to any stance on the question of homosexuality because it is not part of what they do. They are a lay Catholic organisation which encourages a devotion to God via Mary (acknowledging the importance of the womanhood in a patriarchal Church). From your post, it would appear you have a different understanding of what the LOM is.

RickyOFlaherty

Sarky wrote: »

What exactly do you think the LOM were going for when they advertised reparative therapy on campus? Are you suggesting they were unaware that it was bogus pseudoscience that only ever harms people when they put up the posters advertising it?

The LOM HQ said they had nothing to do with it. They were unaware of one of their members running a campaign in their name - the posters were not paid for by the LOM as they do not fundraise. Sorry - I am repeating myself now - but perhaps I was not clear from earlier posts.

RickyOFlaherty

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

That reads more like "oh ****, what have we let ourselves in for with this one. Wait only the NUIG branch have pushed this, so just tell everybody else to kill it and we'll disavow any knowledge."

You see the "courage" crowd have been endorsed at the 2nd highest level by the rcc, so not having any knowledge of them or their activities is very disingenious of the loM.

That is your interpretation. They did know about the posters no did they pay for them. There is no cooperation at HQ level with Courage because that is not what the LOM is involved in. I think the most controversial thing that the legion was involved in was Frank Duff being credited with ridding "Monty" of the brothels in the 1920s. Perhaps that was "taking a stance" on prostitution - but as far as I know - it involved inviting the women to pray to Mary and perhaps offering shelter at the hostel on North Brunnswick Street.

RickyOFlaherty

Cabaal wrote: »

They might want to control their members abit if thats the case

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/abortion-is-un-christian-231271.html
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/article/contradicting-christianity

The chap in question is clearly very involved with the LOM as confirmed very easily via google.

That is a really good point - I'll email those links to the email contact contact address for the LOM. Again, it looks like three individuals using the LOM to back up their views.

I am not naive enough to suggest that many LOM members would not share these views but as an organisation it is an issue that they do not get involved in.

SmilingLurker

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

Any sort of "bias" in the media is unashamedly not reflecting the facts though. However, I did not suggest there is a bias in this story - on the contrary, I said the pure titillation of this story is why it became news.

A bias is an inclination or prejudice towards or against an idea or view in this case. I have a inclination towards a more tolerant liberal society. I think the facts of this story are clear. A group of students members of the RCC and associated with the LOM (or said they were) put out a poster that was offensive. There is nothing wrong with suggesting the LOM disassociate themselves with that.

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

I'm practising Catholic - but I would be of the view that the State and Church should be separate. I also think the State should not really be involved in defining regulating marriages either .. a civil partnership is a legal arrangement between two adults which both the Church and the State should have minimal involvement in. Catholic Church is entitled though to define its own rules for a religious marriage ceremony. I guess that makes me unashamedly liberal too or libertarian? (not sure about the label)

I agree with you completely. Religious parts of marriage ceremonies are fine by me if that is what the couple want. So long as the civil and legal aspects remain the same.

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

Regarding, your second comment - (repeating myself) the LOM said they had nothing to do with the poster.
You hardly expect the LOM as a Catholic lay organisation to "distance themselves from the unjustifiable stance the RCC takes against gay people".

I would not expect members of a church who believe that homosexual acts are violations of divine and natural law to do so. I would expect human beings to be more tolerant. If you support your church, justify that stance. If not stand up to it.

RickyOFlaherty wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there will be no further statement from the LOM HQ - they did not sponsor the poster and they are not going to any stance on the question of homosexuality because it is not part of what they do. They are a lay Catholic organisation which encourages a devotion to God via Mary (acknowledging the importance of the womanhood in a patriarchal Church). From your post, it would appear you have a different understanding of what the LOM is.

I am quite certain there will not be either. They don't want to bring up unpopular teachings as it is not helping them sell their product/brand/ideals.

I am sure there are lots of well meaning good catholics out there who are horrified. I believe this is a true representation of what the RCC believes, which I still find frightening.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

If either of my two children grew up and were gay I would not want them reading such unjustifiable tripe.

RickyOFlaherty

SmilingLurker wrote: »

A bias is an inclination or prejudice towards or against an idea or view in this case. I have a inclination towards a more tolerant liberal society. I think the facts of this story are clear. A group of students members of the RCC and associated with the LOM (or said they were) put out a poster that was offensive. There is nothing wrong with suggesting the LOM disassociate themselves with that.

The context was media bias - not personal bias. In any case, I know what you are trying to say but I think appropriating the word bias to make your point is incorrect here "inclination or prejudice for or against one person or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair." I don't think you are suggesting that your view is unfair.

Regarding the LOM dissociating itself - I've already tried to make a point a few times in different posts and I probably have failed getting my point across to some people.

SmilingLurker wrote: »

I would not expect members of a church who believe that homosexual acts are violations of divine and natural law to do so. I would expect human beings to be more tolerant. If you support your church, justify that stance. If not stand up to it.

I don't really want to get into that debate.

SmilingLurker wrote: »

I am quite certain there will not be either. They don't want to bring up unpopular teachings as it is not helping them sell their product/brand/ideals.

They are not involved officially in any chastity campaigns - and don't sell products or brands .. but already addressed this.

Corkfeen

Quinn is currently coming out in defense of Legion of Mary Society and the organisation that they promote.

shruikan2553

Corkfeen wrote: »

Quinn is currently coming out in defense of Legion of Mary Society and the organisation that they promote.

Considering the catholic viewpoint on the matter Im failing to see the downside.

"You're a terrible person who will go to hell but if you listen to me I can save your soul"

Mark Hamill

Corkfeen wrote: »

Quinn is currently coming out in defense of Legion of Mary Society and the organisation that they promote.

Someone should start a society in NUIG offering counselling to cure people of their catholicism, see how he reacts to that :pac: