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Buying 2014

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    #122
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    question is what would you pay in rent now v buy the property for NOW for the same property. Im currently renting far cheaper than a mortgage would be, but I got in about 2 years ago. Up to fairly recently I was seeing property where the rent would have been substantially more than the mortgage (then again, it depends over how long you want to stretch the mortgage of course)...


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    #123
    lima
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    lukesmom wrote: »
    You can argue the point until the cows come home but the simple fact is:

    -When you buy It is your home and you are paying for it.
    - When you rent it's not your home and your paying for it.

    You can also argue that point until the cows come home but the simple fact is:

    - When you have a mortgage you are renting money and it's not your home until you get the Deeds at the end.


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    #124
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    - When you have a mortgage you are renting money and it's not your home until you get the Deeds at the end.
    Psychologically it is different though, it will feel like your home and you can do what you want with it (within reason) and you will own it at the end... (Im a renter by the way)...


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    #125
    lima
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    lukesmom wrote: »
    You can argue the point until the cows come home but the simple fact is:

    -When you buy It is your home and you are paying for it.
    - When you rent it's not your home and your paying for it.

    I suppose in fairness for the price you got yours then it is better to buy than rent. But right now if you get a mortgage of e250k+ then the interest is the same as rent which defeats the purpose in some ways.


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    #126
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    lima wrote: »
    I suppose in fairness for the price you got yours then it is better to buy than rent. But right now if you get a mortgage of e250k+ then the interest is the same as rent which defeats the purpose in some ways.

    True. I paid with cash though no mortgage.


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    #127
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Bepolite wrote: »
    My mortgage is €550 a month, rent on the same apartment would be €950 a month. I'm not sure how effective it is to save when it's €4800 a year more expensive to rent.

    How much are:
    Property tax
    Maintenance
    Management fees
    Etc


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    #128
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,397 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    The Spider wrote: »
    In the Uk there's plenty of new business (media, tech dev the arts etc) outside
    London, wages are lower however so is the cost of living, we need to get to that model.

    We had it before with manufacturing, Waterford was a major centre when Waterford crystal operated, as well as other factories Bausch and Lomb etc. Now it's verging on a ghost town.

    If these towns could take on manufacturing from some of the worlds bigger countries, I think we should be looking at ways to make them attractive to tech companies and such. How do we make them attractive to the guys who'll work in these companies, and how do we change the factory mindset of some of the towns, in other words people just wanting a job, any job, and not having a direction or interest.
    I agree with the idea, but tell someone in Waterford they should work for €5 an hour rather than the minimum wage at €8 an hour and there'd be a backlash (and possible legal action).

    And at the same time, they could move to Eastern Europe and get the job done for €3 an hour.


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    #129
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    I agree with the idea, but tell someone in Waterford they should work for €5 an hour rather than the minimum wage at €8 an hour and there'd be a backlash (and possible legal action).

    And at the same time, they could move to Eastern Europe and get the job done for €3 an hour.

    No problem with 5 euro an hour, but using the pint index and I believe in it because it's the simplest way to look at inflation over something the vast majority of us spend money on.

    http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/guinnessindex.htm

    The price of a pint at the moment is roughly 4.60 (guiness) in an average pub in most of the country. The price of a pint would have to drop back to 2.02 to make 5 euro an hour a livable wage.

    I'm using this as an example, while I was in college way back in 1991 I had a job on the side that paid me 150 pounds a week which converts to roughly 190 euros, for that 190 euros I could buy 94 pints.

    5 euro an hour on an 8 hour day is about 200 euros a week at current prices that allows you to buy 43 pints a week, so realistically for 5 euro's an hour to actually allow someone an above subsistance lifestyle, prices for goods would have to halve.


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    #130
    cocoa123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭cocoa123


    Guys who has bought off nama, how did you get the info on nama reposs. properties on sale? I'm a first time buyer, have had no experience on the prop market.


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    #131
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    cocoa123 wrote: »
    Guys who has bought off nama, how did you get the info on nama reposs. properties on sale? I'm a first time buyer, have had no experience on the prop market.

    Have looked at their web site ?


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    #132
    cocoa123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭cocoa123


    No, not yet, what site?


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    #133
    marathonic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭marathonic


    cocoa123 wrote: »
    No, not yet, what site?

    If you go to https://www.google.ie and type in 'NAMA', it'll be the first site listed there. ;)


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    #134
    Shedite27
    Registered Users Posts: 9,397 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    The Spider wrote: »
    No problem with 5 euro an hour, but using the pint index and I believe in it because it's the simplest way to look at inflation over something the vast majority of us spend money on.

    http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/guinnessindex.htm

    The price of a pint at the moment is roughly 4.60 (guiness) in an average pub in most of the country. The price of a pint would have to drop back to 2.02 to make 5 euro an hour a livable wage.

    I'm using this as an example, while I was in college way back in 1991 I had a job on the side that paid me 150 pounds a week which converts to roughly 190 euros, for that 190 euros I could buy 94 pints.

    5 euro an hour on an 8 hour day is about 200 euros a week at current prices that allows you to buy 43 pints a week, so realistically for 5 euro's an hour to actually allow someone an above subsistance lifestyle, prices for goods would have to halve.
    Your original point was about cost of living. Main input to that is your mortgage, so take a 3 bed Semi-D in Dublin going for €425k whereas in Waterford it goes for €138k

    That's a difference of bout €1200 a month mortgage repayment which means the guy in Waterford earing €5 an hour, would be equvilent to bout €12 an hour in Dublin, just to pay the mortgage.


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    #135
    macnug
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭macnug


    cocoa123 wrote: »
    Guys who has bought off nama, how did you get the info on nama reposs. properties on sale? I'm a first time buyer, have had no experience on the prop market.

    I just saw it on daft, didnt know it was nama until I viewed it.


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    #136
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    gaius c wrote: »
    How much are:



    Property tax - €40 or something silly
    Maintenance - €3000 (I replaced the kitchen last year so lets say this)
    Management fees - €850

    €3890 Total

    I'm still €910 better off each year and thats based on me replacing the kitchen every year.

    The only difference in overheads when you're renting is you pay them in rent rather than in different bills.


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    #137
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    Your original point was about cost of living. Main input to that is your mortgage, so take a 3 bed Semi-D in Dublin going for €425k whereas in Waterford it goes for €138k

    That's a difference of bout €1200 a month mortgage repayment which means the guy in Waterford earing €5 an hour, would be equvilent to bout €12 an hour in Dublin, just to pay the mortgage.

    The problem is that only unskilled workers will entertain either of those salaries, the industries I mentioned were all high skilled.


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    #138
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    You couldnt go back down to as low as €5, maybe low €7's the only essential cost that varies considerably between dublin and outside of it, is rent or property ownership.

    Id say there would be furore if it was cut say outside Dublin, it would probably be easier to make a Dublin only increase when its being reviewed again..


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    #139
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    You couldnt go back down to as low as €5, maybe low €7's the only essential cost that varies considerably between dublin and outside of it, is rent or property ownership.

    Id say there would be furore if it was cut say outside Dublin, it would probably be easier to make a Dublin only increase when its being reviewed again..

    Well I suppose you sell it on standard of living rather than low wages, tech companies etc are going to come here before eastern europe, however as you say the only real difference in costs between Dublin and the rest of the country is property, well then if you establish the buisness outside Dublin the wages needn't necessarily be as high, but they can't be stupid low either, you're more likely to build a loyal workforce, (or a trapped workforce because yours is the only job in town, depends on how you look at it.)


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    #140
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,297 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    I'm recently mortgage agreed and we're viewing some places in Dublin, though think there may not be any value in the market at present (looking in the €300k-€350k region for a modest 3-bed close to town). Panic seems to be setting in, which means a dip in prices is around the corner - every panic-induced bubble bursts, that's as sure as the sun rises in the sky each morning! No point trying to guess a specific month or year though, as we learned last time these things have legs.

    I agree with anyone who says there will not be a flood of repos, we (the Irish) don't have any stomach for that and I believe it is far more likely that we'll just socialise the debts of the few.


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    #141
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    I keep hear people referring to recent price rises as a bubble. Its not. It may become one, but its not at the moment. We simply have a shift in the demand curve, and prices overcorrecting on the way down.


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    #142
    lima
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    MouseTail wrote: »
    I keep hear people referring to recent price rises as a bubble. Its not. It may become one, but its not at the moment. We simply have a shift in the demand curve, and prices overcorrecting on the way down.

    It's a massive bubble in my experience.

    I viewed a 600 sq ft 2br (lol) in D6 for e295 and it ended up going sale agreed for e360k!!

    I viewed another 2br place in middle class northside for e299 and 4 days later it was e340k so I puled out.

    I called up about a 2br apt in D6 that was going for e270 but 2 days later it was bidding at e335

    Bubble I say!!


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    #143
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Property tax - €40 or something silly
    Maintenance - €3000 (I replaced the kitchen last year so lets say this)
    Management fees - €850

    €3890 Total

    I'm still €910 better off each year and thats based on me replacing the kitchen every year.

    The only difference in overheads when you're renting is you pay them in rent rather than in different bills.

    Aye but you left them out in order to boost your simplistic comparison. You also forgot to mention that part of the reason the mortgage is so cheap compared to rent is that interest rates are at an all time low. Come back to us when ECB rates revert to the Bundesbank long term average of 4-5%.


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    #144
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    gaius c wrote: »
    Aye but you left them out in order to boost your simplistic comparison. You also forgot to mention that part of the reason the mortgage is so cheap compared to rent is that interest rates are at an all time low. Come back to us when ECB rates revert to the Bundesbank long term average of 4-5%.

    and you don't think rents will rise in that case? Increased LL costs are passed onto tenants. Higher interest rates = higher housing costs for everyone.


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    #145
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    lima wrote: »

    Bubble I say!!

    i know it feels like a bubble at the coalface, crowds at viewings, disconnect between asking and selling costs, but it is not a bubble. The asset would need to be substantially overpriced based on fundamentals for it to be a bubble. The driver of the rises in Dublin is a fairly rapid economic recovery, chronic housing shortage and pent up demand. Not in bubble territory yet, and if you truly feel we are, you would be crazy to buy now.


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    #146
    moxin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    MouseTail wrote: »
    i know it feels like a bubble at the coalface, crowds at viewings, disconnect between asking and selling costs, but it is not a bubble. The asset would need to be substantially overpriced based on fundamentals for it to be a bubble. The driver of the rises in Dublin is a fairly rapid economic recovery, chronic housing shortage and pent up demand. Not in bubble territory yet, and if you truly feel we are, you would be crazy to buy now.

    Its Cash buyers driving at least 50% of the demand. The IBF are due to release their yearly release of mortgage lending for 2013, they even said the levels will be slightly lower than 2012.


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    #147
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    macnug wrote: »
    I just saw it on daft, didnt know it was nama until I viewed it.

    Same as me.


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    #148
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    gaius c wrote: »
    Aye but you left them out in order to boost your simplistic comparison. You also forgot to mention that part of the reason the mortgage is so cheap compared to rent is that interest rates are at an all time low. Come back to us when ECB rates revert to the Bundesbank long term average of 4-5%.

    And what do you think will happen to rents at that point? They will simply rise inline with people's mortgages on BTLs. Lets say the government introduce a 'LL are evil tax' of a €1000 a month, again - rents will simply rise by €1000.

    You can make is a complicated as you like but while the majority of rental units are BTLs with mortgages on that robopaddy bought as an investment because pensions are too intangible rents > mortgages.


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    #149
    Villa05
    Registered Users Posts: 4,618 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Rent prices have no correlation with the cost of the mortage. If it did there would be no, arrears in the btl sector

    Most btl have no mortage

    Fresh btl's would have been purchased with, cash or a very large cash deposit.


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    #150
    Bepolite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭Bepolite


    Villa05 wrote: »
    Rent prices have no correlation with the cost of the mortage. If it did there would be no, arrears in the btl sector

    Most btl have no mortage

    Fresh btl's would have been purchased with, cash or a very large cash deposit.

    Can you point to a single time rents have dipped below mortgage values? The only time it's likely to happen is if interest rates become so high, so quickly LL can't respond during leases. If that happens we're all going to have bigger things to worry about.

    There are a huge number of BTLs with mortgages, rather accidental in most cases.


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    #151
    cmssjone
    Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭cmssjone


    Bepolite wrote: »
    Can you point to a single time rents have dipped below mortgage values? The only time it's likely to happen is if interest rates become so high, so quickly LL can't respond during leases. If that happens we're all going to have bigger things to worry about.

    There are a huge number of BTLs with mortgages, rather accidental in most cases.

    Completely agree. Many of these accidental LLs are also making a loss.


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