Irish Language Commissioner resigns

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

The more recent incident happened much later, news of it broke only a few days ago. I don't know if his office was made aware of it back when it happened or not(Though it would be surprising if it was not). The case it is related to is going through the courts at present, so its not at all surprising that he did not bring it up in public.
If his office was involved in the case, it will most likely be outlined in his report for 2013.

I'm sure we'll see many more such incidents and not just involving the Gardai.

In an English-speaking country, such as Ireland, it's unreasonable to expect fluent Irish-speaking Gardai, officials, firemen, doctors, nurses, engineers etc to be as readily available as those who speak our vernacular language.

The lack of cooperation that the commissioner experienced is quite understandable considering the outrageous demands of the OLA.

Godge

An Coilean wrote: »

It was found that the actions of the Gardaí in that particular incident were in breach of their language scheme. In terms of the aftermath of the investigation, in the months after it, the Gardaí were working on implementing the recomendations made by the investagation, and as such An Coimisinéir was satisified that his recomendations were being taken on board and that was that as far as that particular incident goes. You hardily would have expected him to take the matter further in the months after the investigation when it apeared that the Gardaí had taken his recomendations on board.

The more recent incident happened much later, news of it broke only a few days ago. I don't know if his office was made aware of it back when it happened or not(Though it would be surprising if it was not). The case it is related to is going through the courts at present, so its not at all surprising that he did not bring it up in public.
If his office was involved in the case, it will most likely be outlined in his report for 2013.

We will see, but I am certain that politicians really only want lip-service paid to the OLA for vote reasons. If criminals are evading prosecution by demanding to be be questioned on the side of the road in Irish, the law will change against them quickly because suddenly the OLA will be a vote-loser.

You see in Ireland, there are vote-winners in pretending to do something and being symbolic but there are vote-losers if it actually happens.

An Coilean

MadPat wrote: »

I'm sure we'll see many more such incidents and not just involving the Gardai.

In an English-speaking country, such as Ireland, it's unreasonable to expect fluent Irish-speaking Gardai, officials, firemen, doctors, nurses, engineers etc to be as readily available as those who speak our vernacular language.

The lack of cooperation that the commissioner experienced is quite understandable considering the outrageous demands of the OLA.

I would agree, it would be impossible to insure that Irish speaking Gardaí etc are as readily available as English speaking Gardaí etc. The problem is not that an Irish speaking Garda was not readily available, the problem was that despite the obligations on the organisation, nothing had been put in place beyond the volountary assistance of Irish speaking Gardaí when they could be found.
This system, or lack of a system was found lacking, and a Garda on the ground was left ignorent of the obligations of the organisation and without any support in fulfilling those organisations which resulted in an Irish speaker being brought to a Garda station in handcuffs as a result of choosing to do thier business in Irish. This was found to be in breach of the obligations on the organisation, and the organisation was required to put recomendations into effect so that the organisation could better deal with people through Irish.

If that is outrageous, well then, outrageous we shall have to be.

An Coilean

Godge wrote: »

We will see, but I am certain that politicians really only want lip-service paid to the OLA for vote reasons.

Some of them no doubt, other would like even less, but some are actually supportive of the language and are happy to improve the provision of services in Irish.

If criminals are evading prosecution by demanding to be be questioned on the side of the road in Irish, the law will change against them quickly because suddenly the OLA will be a vote-loser.

There is no way evade prosecution by choosing to use Irish, indeed at present you are mearly drawing attention to yourself by choosing to speak Irish.

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

The problem is not that an Irish speaking Garda was not readily available, the problem was that despite the obligations on the organisation, nothing had been put in place beyond the volountary assistance of Irish speaking Gardaí when they could be found.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. It's never going to be possible to make Iriish speakers available quickly enough or fluent enough or with the right dialect.

An Coilean wrote: »

which resulted in an Irish speaker being brought to a Garda station in handcuffs as a result of choosing to do thier business in Irish.

This is a gross distortion and is not correct. He was arrested as he did not cooperate with the Gardai by speaking English, our common language. Being cooperative often involves some personal inconvenience or discomfort.

An Coilean wrote: »

If that is outrageous, well then, outrageous we shall have to be.

Why? Do you not care what people will think and how such petulant gestures will reflect on the dignity of Irish?

A Primal Nut

HansHolzel wrote: »

Coinnigh greim ar bhur gcapaill, lads.

On 12 March 2013, Gaelport.com reported the following case. It can be found in a link just under its report of the Language Commissioner's resignation but here is the direct link.

http://www.gaelport.com/nuacht?NewsItemID=9465

To summarize, the case involved a young man stopped in Dublin by An Garda Síochána over a traffic offence that didn't involve drink, speed or an accident. When he tried to conduct his business through Irish - his constitutional right - he was arrested, handcuffed and detained in a police station until an Irish-speaking officer could be found to deal with him.

I doubt this was reported on by any English language media organ.

If he genuinely doesn't speak English then I'd feel sorry for him. If he does speak English (a reasonable assumption) then he was just being annoying and deserved what he got. People like him are not doing anything to advance the language, but are moving it backwards.

All this story tells us is that we should change the constitution so that people can't use the Irish language as a technicality to avoid facing the law.

Dannyboy83

An Coilean wrote: »

the organisation was required to put recomendations into effect so that the organisation could better deal with people through Irish.

If that is outrageous, well then, outrageous we shall have to be.

It doesn't really seem outrageous, it just seems petty.

I'm sure the majority of Irish people don't object to a service in Irish, and won't when we can afford it, but the Irish people are acutely aware how limited our resources currently are and - as we are told - we all have to do our part. (e.g. pay high motor tax yet drive on dangerously potholed roads)

As a nation we already have so many serious problems we need to resolve, many life and death problems, that nobody with perspective expects this particular issue, which is considered a luxury, to be considered justified in consuming even more of our terribly limited resources.

If we had no economic crisis, no hospital waiting lists mess, no organised crime urgency, no unemployment impasse, no emigration deadlock......no existing police services through the first language.... then I'd wager this issue would no longer appear as a luxury, and may even appear reasonable.
But right now, it's a bad investment with no return, compared to the things we could and should be doing with our terribly limited resources.

Irish speakers will just have to do their part too, and drive on the sh1t roads with the rest of us, and pay high taxes for substandard services with the rest of us, and speak English when there is no alternative with the rest of us.

_Kaiser_

Personally I'm of the view that if people want to learn and speak Irish, they of course should be free to do so, but no (or minimal) state resources should be spent on it.

Irish has no practical use in 2013's Ireland regardless of what the Irish lobby would like to believe. Regardless of what Dev and co wanted to believe in the 1930s, English is the first, native language for 99% of the indigenous population.


- It should be removed from schools (or at the very least made an optional subject) and replaced with a useful language (German, French, Spanish etc) so that our kids might have a chance at competing for the jobs in the multinationals our government is so fond of.
It makes even less sense when you consider the multicultural nature of our schools nowadays. Kids who weren't even born here are forced to waste time on an alien language of no benefit to anyone (unless their parents manage to get them an exemption from the Department that is)


- This Gaeltact area nonsense of things like road signs only being in Irish needs to end too - especially because the same group insist that every other sign has Irish on it
If that story about 2 year olds only hearing Irish on a day-to-day basis is true, these areas should be abolished completely as it's putting those children at a severe disadvantage. It's a well established fact that you learn languages quicker and easier the younger you are and to hear that there are kids in this country being denied a language that they will absolutely depend on later on life is bordering on criminal IMO
Similarly things such as allowing for extra points in State examinations if completed through Irish is another bias that needs to be eliminated


- Comments like speaking Irish means you're "more educated" (as expressed earlier in this thread) or "more Irish" are ridiculous nonsense, as is the idea that you must be a "West Brit" if you don't support "our" language. We get it.. 800 years, colonial oppression blah blah.. time to get over it and join the rest of Ireland (ALL Ireland I might add) in the 21st century. This "Victim" approach does nothing to help the cause, nor does patronising those you want to convert


In case you think I'm just picking on Irish, I'd similarly suggest that Religion should lose official/school support as well for much the same reasons - that and the damage the Catholic church has done to this country over the years, both in terms of abusing generations of kids but also holding us back socially for decades - the effects of which are still lingering today.


Oh and I can't speak a word of Irish (though a native I was lucky to have a mother who didn't see the value in it either and fought for one of those exemptions I mentioned), so responding with "smart" Irish phrases will be lost on me .. although as far as I know, this is an English-speaking forum where you are required to use that language (with the exception of specific sections on the site). Perhaps one of the Mods can clarify?

An Coilean

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If that story about 2 year olds only hearing Irish on a day-to-day basis is true, these areas should be abolished completely as it's putting those children at a severe disadvantage. It's a well established fact that you learn languages quicker and easier the younger you are and to hear that there are kids in this country being denied a language that they will absolutely depend on later on life is bordering on criminal IMO

Words fail me at how disgusting a sentiment this is. Irish is their native language, they are going to pass it on to their children.
You are going to have to reconsile yourself to that fact because it is not going to change in your lifetime.

_Kaiser_

An Coilean wrote: »

Words fail me at how disgusting a sentiment this is. Irish is their native language, they are going to pass it on to their children.
You are going to have to reconsile yourself to that fact because it is not going to change in your lifetime.

There's no point in me attempting to argue/debate with you as your over-the-top reaction above demonstrates.

Thankfully (for the sake of those who WILL still be here after my lifetime) most Irish people recognize the reality that English is a far more useful choice to be spending time and (finite/limited) resources on first, and "would be nice" things like the Irish language afterwards.

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

Words fail me at how disgusting a sentiment this is. Irish is their native language, they are going to pass it on to their children.
You are going to have to reconsile yourself to that fact because it is not going to change in your lifetime.

Where did he say that parents should not pass on Irish to their children?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

An Coilean

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Oh dear, talk about a one sided view of history, there are more than a few glaring omissions.
Reading your post the momentum is clear, however a broder and less biased view will show a very different story.

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

a broder and less biased view will show a very different story.

Didn't Broder kill Brian Boru?

Mr.Micro

An Coilean wrote: »

Oh dear, talk about a one sided view of history, there are more than a few glaring omissions.
Reading your post the momentum is clear, however a broder and less biased view will show a very different story.

Not sure about that. The Irish lobby have had their way too long. We can't turn the clock back and despite all the best efforts of those engaged in teaching Irish, it has made little progress in the willingness of people to learn it or embrace it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

spank_inferno

What is it about free will that terrifies the gaelgoir lobby so much?

Manach

Free will? Regardless of the correctness of the Irish policy pursued by the state, a cursory glance at government policy and statutory legislation shows that this takes very much a back seat to both specialised lobbying groups or effects designed to empower the perpetual of the state. For the latter, so long as it can be shown that the Irish policy augments the nationalist ethos (again being non-judgemental on this), which is similar to how other countries insist on supporting non-economic but of historical myth making importance, then the Irish Policy will continue - if only on the power of inertia.

spank_inferno

Manach wrote: »

Free will? Regardless of the correctness of the Irish policy pursued by the state, a cursory glance at government policy and statutory legislation shows that this takes very much a back seat to both specialised lobbying groups or effects designed to empower the perpetual of the state. For the latter, so long as it can be shown that the Irish policy augments the nationalist ethos (again being non-judgemental on this), which is similar to how other countries insist on supporting non-economic but of historical myth making importance, then the Irish Policy will continue - if only on the power of inertia.

Eh?

Manach

spank_inferno wrote: »

Eh?

Sorry-too much academic speak. The more incomprehensible the better
ie Governments do fairly much what they want for their own reasons.

goose2005

HansHolzel wrote: »

There should be no legal presumption that an Irish speaker is a messer and/or a subversive. That smacks of colonialist thinking.

Or common sense.

An Coilean

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You paint a picture of the Irish language contracting and becoming less relevant over the last 50 years.

Some of the glaring omisions, the developments over that timeframe which contradict the story you have tried to present and which you choose to ignore in your post include:

The Gaeltacht civil rights movement which resulted in the establishment of Údarás na Gaeltachta.

The campaign for the establishment of Raidio na Gaeltachta.

The television campaign which saw a Pirate TV station set up and eventuly resulted in TG4 being established.

The growth of the Gaelscoil Movement over that period which saw the number of Gaelscoileanna grow from 11 in 1972 to 180 this year, and the number of Gaelcholastaí grow from 5 in 1972 to 41 this year, with more confirmed to be opening over the next few years. Last year there were 45,373 pupils being educated through Irish outside the Gaeltacht, up from 35,972 in 2007.

The Official Languages Act was brought in in 2003.

The office of An Coimisinéir Teanga was established in 2004.

Irish became an Official language in the EU in 2007.

The massive growth of the language in the North over the last 20 years.

The growth of Naonraí from the first one established in 1968 to over 300 today.

The growth of Irish societies at third level from a handfull 10 years ago to there being one in almost every third level instution, some of which have hundreds of members, and in the case of UCD, thousands or members.

Not to mention that despite wanting to make Irish optional, FG were forced to back down and retain Irish as a core subject of the LC.

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

Some of the glaring omisions, the developments over that timeframe which contradict the story you have tried to present and which you choose to ignore in your post include:

The accomplishments you quote consist mostly of new laws and success in extracting more money from the public purse without any accountability for the results.

Oddly, you give no statistics relating to the decline of Irish speaking in the Gaeltacht or the massive failure of the measures forcing the Irish language on the majority population.

The results speak for themselves...in English.

The commission must have been concious of the futility of his mission when he had to face the reality of the unpopularity of Irish language policy, despite the formidable arsenal of powers his position granted him.

Sheldons Brain

It isn't rocket science. Two languages are spoken in Ireland and people have the right to services in the one they prefer, it would be an outright disgrace if a supposedly independent Irish government was forcing its citizens to deal with it in a colonial language. That being the case, people at schools have to learn both so that they can fulfil a full part in society. It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

There is a lot of talk of the numbers of people involved here. If you stated that most people were happy to marry people of the opposite sex and that homosexuals should just get used to it, the you are characterised as a bigot. If you claim that most people speak English and that Irish speakers should just get used to it, then you are characterised as "progressive". Such is the distortion of the meaning of language (no pun intended).

MadPat

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

f you stated that most people were happy to marry people of the opposite sex and that homosexuals should just get used to it, the you are characterised as a bigot.

It is my understanding that homosexuals don't have a problem with people of the opposite sex marrying each other. Nor do they seek to make others become homosexual.

shruikan2553

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It isn't rocket science. Two languages are spoken in Ireland and people have the right to services in the one they prefer, it would be an outright disgrace if a supposedly independent Irish government was forcing its citizens to deal with it in a colonial language. That being the case, people at schools have to learn both so that they can fulfil a full part in society. It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

There is a lot of talk of the numbers of people involved here. If you stated that most people were happy to marry people of the opposite sex and that homosexuals should just get used to it, the you are characterised as a bigot. If you claim that most people speak English and that Irish speakers should just get used to it, then you are characterised as "progressive". Such is the distortion of the meaning of language (no pun intended).

They are completely different situations. The irish speakers want everyone to speak Irish to them, theres nothing stopping to irish speakers from communicating however they want. Its not like everyone has to take part in gay marriage, in that case then yes, the majority have no interest in being part of a gay marriage would be valid in not forcing it on everyone.

You cant expect everyone to learn another language to please a minority who already speak the main language of the country.

Iwasfrozen

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It isn't rocket science. Two languages are spoken in Ireland and people have the right to services in the one they prefer, it would be an outright disgrace if a supposedly independent Irish government was forcing its citizens to deal with it in a colonial language. That being the case, people at schools have to learn both so that they can fulfil a full part in society. It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

Ireland is an English speaking country. It's the government and selective Irish speaking monoglots who will have to adapt their position to fit in with society.

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

There is a lot of talk of the numbers of people involved here. If you stated that most people were happy to marry people of the opposite sex and that homosexuals should just get used to it, the you are characterised as a bigot. If you claim that most people speak English and that Irish speakers should just get used to it, then you are characterised as "progressive". Such is the distortion of the meaning of language (no pun intended).

You the self rigtousness of gaelgeoir facists is hilarious at times. No one is forcing people into gay marriage at school! I don't know where you came up with that analogy but I'm having a good chuckle here.

Carlos Orange

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

The vast majority of Irish people speak only English. Doing so does not make them less Irish no matter what you think.

Dannyboy83

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

Do you mean 19th or 21st century Ireland?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sheldons Brain

The vast majority of Irish people speak only English. Doing so does not make them less Irish no matter what you think.

Speaking only English is one thing, I am myself in that category, but actively seeking to exterminate Irish language and culture is another and is rather odd behaviour for someone who identifies with their own country, it is rather common among those who seem themselves as part of the neighbouring island. The sneering and loathing attitudes here towards a minority which make this country distinctive and wish to see them eliminated are not the attitudes of people with a positive attitude towards their own country.

Only two? Again, Census 2011 found that 514,068 residents of Ireland said that they spoke a language other than English or Irish at home.

Non native languages cannot enjoy the same status, if you move someplace else you cannot expect them to give up their language to facilitate immigrants. Irish speakers who have moved to Massachusetts cannot expect the authorities there to facilitate them in a way that the should at home.

Most homosexuals do accept that most people want to marry someone of the opposite sex. Now, if only Irish-speakers could accept that most Irish people want to speak English...

Irish speakers do not in general have a problem with others speaking English provided that they are permitted to speak Irish themselves and not forced into speaking English because of prejudice or ignorance among English speakers. An analogy would be that homosexuals do not wish to be required to form different sex couples when interacting with heterosexuals.

Sheldons Brain

There is a big difference between seeking to exterminate something and not agreeing with having it forced upon people.

You seeking to force Irish speakers to speak English and you see nothing wrong with that on the basis of majoritarianism. Do you believe that all minorities should be so treated? I can think of a few whose behaviour I find objectionable.

shruikan2553

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

You seeking to force Irish speakers to speak English and you see nothing wrong with that on the basis of majoritarianism. Do you believe that all minorities should be so treated? I can think of a few whose behaviour I find objectionable.

So you want to force English speakers to speak Irish?

Carlos Orange

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

You seeking to force Irish speakers to speak English and you see nothing wrong with that on the basis of majoritarianism. Do you believe that all minorities should be so treated? I can think of a few whose behaviour I find objectionable.

I object to the fictitious special position some people think the Irish language should have. People who speak Irish deserve the same treatment as people who speak Polish, Chinese or Armenian. Somewhere between Polish and French based on the number of speakers. A couple of percent of people (if even that) preferring to deal with the government in Irish doesn't justify the treatment Irish speakers demand.

Sheldons Brain

I object to the fictitious special position some people think the Irish language should have. People who speak Irish deserve the same treatment as people who speak Polish, Chinese or Armenian.

Armenians (a group who have been the victim of the type of policies supported by many here) who come to this country are probably more respecting of its traditions than many living here. The world is a richer place if majorities do not ruthlessly seek to exterminate minorities, especially in this case where people are using a pseudo argument about rights to continue a sordid colonial project of eliminating an sense of separate identify in their neighbour.

Dannyboy83

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Speaking only English is one thing,

There are plenty of Irish people who don't speak Irish yet are bi-lingual.
Census 2011 found that 514,068 residents of Ireland said that they spoke a language other than English or Irish at home.

The sneering and loathing attitudes here towards a minority which make this country distinctive and wish to see them eliminated are not the attitudes of people with a positive attitude towards their own country.

How do you reconcile this opinion with the fact that the Irish Language Lobby rely on an Authoritarian system to deprive individual liberty?

Carlos Orange

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Armenians (a group who have been the victim of the type of policies supported by many here) who come to this country are probably more respecting of its traditions than many living here. The world is a richer place if majorities do not ruthlessly seek to exterminate minorities, especially in this case where people are using a pseudo argument about rights to continue a sordid colonial project of eliminating an sense of separate identify in their neighbour.

Honestly, constantly referring to people speaking their native language as a vast multi generational colonial project of oppression is kinda boring.

MadPat

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

a sordid colonial project of eliminating an sense of separate identify in their neighbour.

Which parts of our present identity do you wish to roll back to the past? Should we extend the role of the Language Commissioner to police our cultural identity so we all conform to an official definition of 'Irishness'? We could, for example, form a committee to investigate 'un-Irish' activities and investigate people who might be part of the 'sordid colonial project'? Anyone with a Sky dish could be suspect....

Hotblack Desiato

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Speaking only English is one thing, I am myself in that category

So you want to force others to do what you refuse to do yourself?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

You seeking to force Irish speakers to speak English and you see nothing wrong with that on the basis of majoritarianism. Do you believe that all minorities should be so treated? I can think of a few whose behaviour I find objectionable.

Irish speakers are free to speak whatever lanaguge they wish. If, however, not being listened to or understood is one of the results of their choice, I would argue that their choice of langauge was a poor one.

spank_inferno

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

It is very undesirable that communities, be the Polish, Nigerian, or West British carry on as if they are not living in Ireland.

You have been digging yourself into a hole for a few pages....

.... However I'd love it if you could flesh out what you mean with the above statement?

oscarBravo

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

...it is rather common among those who seem themselves as part of the neighbouring island. The sneering and loathing attitudes here...

...are a figment of your imagination, other than your attitude towards Irish people who don't share your perspective.

I mean, seriously. "West Brits"? Are we in a playground?

spank_inferno

oscarBravo wrote: »

...are a figment of your imagination, other than your attitude towards Irish people who don't share your perspective.

I mean, seriously. "West Brits"? Are we in a playground?

You do see that alright from a lot of gaelgoirs.

We don't speak the language, we don't 'Gaelic up' our name (no matter how Anglo-Norman that name may be).
We are sneered at & seen as less Irish... West Brit (whatever that is supposed to mean).

All for not sharing their views.

Its so silly, & does the Irish language cause no good.

Godge

An Coilean wrote: »

You paint a picture of the Irish language contracting and becoming less relevant over the last 50 years.

Some of the glaring omisions, the developments over that timeframe which contradict the story you have tried to present and which you choose to ignore in your post include:

The Gaeltacht civil rights movement which resulted in the establishment of Údarás na Gaeltachta.

The campaign for the establishment of Raidio na Gaeltachta.

The television campaign which saw a Pirate TV station set up and eventuly resulted in TG4 being established.

The growth of the Gaelscoil Movement over that period which saw the number of Gaelscoileanna grow from 11 in 1972 to 180 this year, and the number of Gaelcholastaí grow from 5 in 1972 to 41 this year, with more confirmed to be opening over the next few years. Last year there were 45,373 pupils being educated through Irish outside the Gaeltacht, up from 35,972 in 2007.

The Official Languages Act was brought in in 2003.

The office of An Coimisinéir Teanga was established in 2004.

Irish became an Official language in the EU in 2007.

The massive growth of the language in the North over the last 20 years.

The growth of Naonraí from the first one established in 1968 to over 300 today.

The growth of Irish societies at third level from a handfull 10 years ago to there being one in almost every third level instution, some of which have hundreds of members, and in the case of UCD, thousands or members.

Not to mention that despite wanting to make Irish optional, FG were forced to back down and retain Irish as a core subject of the LC.

Most of those are taxpayer-funded initiatives. They are not indicative of the rise or fall in the use of the Irish language.

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Speaking only English is one thing, I am myself in that category, but actively seeking to exterminate Irish language and culture is another and is rather odd behaviour for someone who identifies with their own country, it is rather common among those who seem themselves as part of the neighbouring island. The sneering and loathing attitudes here towards a minority which make this country distinctive and wish to see them eliminated are not the attitudes of people with a positive attitude towards their own country.

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

You seeking to force Irish speakers to speak English and you see nothing wrong with that on the basis of majoritarianism. Do you believe that all minorities should be so treated? I can think of a few whose behaviour I find objectionable.

Nobody is forcing anyone to speak English. It is the forced provision of public services in Irish that is the issue.

AlekSmart

Godge wrote: »

Nobody is forcing anyone to speak English. It is the cost of the forced provision of public services in Irish that is the issue.

Good point

_Kaiser_

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Speaking only English is one thing, I am myself in that category, but actively seeking to exterminate Irish language and culture is another and is rather odd behaviour for someone who identifies with their own country, it is rather common among those who seem themselves as part of the neighbouring island. The sneering and loathing attitudes here towards a minority which make this country distinctive and wish to see them eliminated are not the attitudes of people with a positive attitude towards their own country.

Thank you... thank you for so blatantly proving my point earlier in the thread - this ridiculous attitude from the pro-Irish brigade that you're somehow less Irish or indeed a "West-Brit" if you don't support "the cause" coupled with a persecution complex that is completely unwarranted and at complete odds with the official and financial support poured into the language over the years :rolleyes:

All it really does of course is show the ignorance they accuse the "other side" of.

Non native languages cannot enjoy the same status, if you move someplace else you cannot expect them to give up their language to facilitate immigrants. Irish speakers who have moved to Massachusetts cannot expect the authorities there to facilitate them in a way that the should at home.

And yet that's precisely what the pro-Irish lobby want from the rest of Ireland - that the small minority of native Irish Gaeltact dwellers (all of whom speak fluent English of course!) should be facilitated at every turn (and at great expense to the State) to keep the fantasy of Irish being a living/practical language alive.

oscarBravo wrote: »

...are a figment of your imagination, other than your attitude towards Irish people who don't share your perspective.

I mean, seriously. "West Brits"? Are we in a playground?

Alas that's about all the pro-Irish lobby can throw out to support the cause as the empirical evidence (as so ably demonstrated by Permabear and others) shows a very different reality to what they want (us) to believe.

Grudaire

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

complete odds with the official and financial support poured into the language over the years

In fairness the official and financial support for Irish has generally been symbolic rather than actual effective measures.

I have particular issue with the fact that political parties are happy to make seemingly pro-Irish moves (eg the official languages act) while they themselves will not engage with people in Irish

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

And yet that's precisely what the pro-Irish lobby want from the rest of Ireland - that the small minority of native Irish Gaeltact dwellers (all of whom speak fluent English of course!) should be facilitated at every turn (and at great expense to the State) to keep the fantasy of Irish being a living/practical language alive.

I'll start by saying I don't think the provision of services through Irish should be limited to "Gaeltact dwellers" - as an Irish speaking Dub that wouldn't suit me at all.

Some points below, but please note that if you don't think that supporting the Irish language is a worthwhile cause then we're always going to disagree about this!

• You fail to quantify the 'great expense' that is services in Irish
• There are many taxpayers such as myself who want their tax Euros to be spent on services in Irish.
• If it is unfair that your taxes are sent on provision of services in Irish then why is it not unfair that my taxes are used to provide services in English?
• I don't think that Irish Speakers are close to being facilitated 'at every turn', indeed it's more rare that services are available in Irish than not.

MadPat

Grudaire wrote: »

• You fail to quantify the 'great expense' that is services in Irish
• There are many taxpayers such as myself who want their tax Euros to be spent on services in Irish.
• If it is unfair that your taxes are sent on provision of services in Irish then why is it not unfair that my taxes are used to provide services in English?
• I don't think that Irish Speakers are close to being facilitated 'at every turn', indeed it's more rare that services are available in Irish than not.

• That's because the OLA makes no provision for measuring the cost.
• How many is 'many'?
• Services are provided in English, because it is our real national language, nothing unfair about that. It's just a fact of life that Irish enthusiasts think is unfair.
• The OLA provides that Irish enthusiasts, not just native Irish speakers, must be faciliated in all services. The commissioner, before he resigned in frustration at not being able to force people to speak Irish, was advancing this policy.

Dannyboy83

Grudaire wrote: »

[*]If it is unfair that your taxes are sent on provision of services in Irish then why is it not unfair that my taxes are used to provide services in English?

In fairness, it's probably unlikely your taxes are spent on providing services in English.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/the-irish-language--throwing-good-money-after-bad-225250.html
It is estimated that we spend something around €1bn a year just teaching Irish. Other programmes add to that cost. Foras na Gaeilge supports 19 Irish promotion organisations with state funding. Television service TG4 got €32.75m in current funding from Government last year. Its audience stands at something around 2% of the population. Raidió na Gaeltachta has, it is believed, an even smaller audience though official figures are not available. It may be assumed that funding for RnaG pushes the bill for Irish language broadcasting towards the €50m mark for just these two outlets.

The money spent versus the number of taxpayers speaking it seems drastically out of sync, in favour of Irish speakers.
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Coimisinéir Seán Ó Cuirreáin revealed that gardaí are to get a laminated card carrying useful phrases in Irish. This follows instances where a garda competent enough in Irish to deal with the public through Irish was not immediately to hand.

*facepalm*