Keano Vieira documentary: mod warning post in OP and post #331

lala88

http://www.itv.com/sport/football/article/2013-12-03/keane-vieira-best-of-enemies-on-itv4-at-10pm-tuesday-10th-december-2013/

Should be worth a watch. One thing i canr help but think though is Keane has well and truely sold out.

Mod Warning: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87965432&postcount=331

gustavo

What makes you say that he sold out ? Just curious

lala88

gustavo wrote: »

What makes you say that he sold out ? Just curious

Keane always lambasted this type of thing, as well as punditry. You live by the sword you die by it as they say. Him doing these things means that instead of the high-standard-having pro who stood up for himself and never accepted second best that we thought he was, he was actually just a bit of a windbag.

The truth is that Keane no longer has any street cred, except with those whose hearts veto their heads.This silly TV programme is in keeping with his demise. As a player he was world-class, since then he has been an embarrassment. His only comparative contemporary is Australian cricketer Shane Warne who also smeared a great legacy. Keane has been thrown a lifeline by the FAI and we all wish him luck. His dwindling band of sycophants love to say "Keano owes nobody anything". They're wrong, he owes it to himself to pull his head in and regain the respect his fellow countrymen showed him pre-2002.

secman

the guy is just mellowing..........happens to us all...........take a chill pill............

Secman

DoctorEdgeWild

Street cred and legacies don't really mean much to some people. I'd happily sell my street cred to help secure my family's future for example. Not saying that Roy Keane has any kind of money worries but ideals like 'Street Cred' is usually only in the minds of fans/detractors/etc.

djPSB

lala88 wrote: »

Keane always lambasted this type of thing, as well as punditry. You live by the sword you die by it as they say. Him doing these things means that instead of the high-standard-having pro who stood up for himself and never accepted second best that we thought he was, he was actually just a bit of a windbag.

The truth is that Keane no longer has any street cred, except with those whose hearts veto their heads.This silly TV programme is in keeping with his demise. As a player he was world-class, since then he has been an embarrassment. His only comparative contemporary is Australian cricketer Shane Warne who also smeared a great legacy. Keane has been thrown a lifeline by the FAI and we all wish him luck. His dwindling band of sycophants love to say "Keano owes nobody anything". They're wrong, he owes it to himself to pull his head in and regain the respect his fellow countrymen showed him pre-2002.

He's just finally calming down and maturing. It's a good sign really.

Sir Gallagher

Exactly people change, mellow, cop on. Whats' the alternative? Gazza?

Im surprised the program isnt getting more exposure tbh, two legends in the game and a fantastic rivalry. The United v Arsenal games were a great spectacle back then even as a Liverpool fan. Hopefully it's something similar to the boxing ones with equal parts tension and respect.

Turtyturd

lala88 wrote: »

Keane always lambasted this type of thing, as well as punditry. You live by the sword you die by it as they say. Him doing these things means that instead of the high-standard-having pro who stood up for himself and never accepted second best that we thought he was, he was actually just a bit of a windbag.

The truth is that Keane no longer has any street cred, except with those whose hearts veto their heads.This silly TV programme is in keeping with his demise. As a player he was world-class, since then he has been an embarrassment. His only comparative contemporary is Australian cricketer Shane Warne who also smeared a great legacy. Keane has been thrown a lifeline by the FAI and we all wish him luck. His dwindling band of sycophants love to say "Keano owes nobody anything". They're wrong, he owes it to himself to pull his head in and regain the respect his fellow countrymen showed him pre-2002.

Do we?

OwaynOTT

Turtyturd wrote: »

Do we?

Yeah! Now shut up and throw your penny in the fountain.

DeanAustin

Get real. Roy Keane was never the "win at all costs, highest standards possible" caricature. He always did what was best for Roy Keane and f**k everyone else.

The man was a great player, one of the best. However, he was always self serving and his hypocrisy in becoming a pundit is just a continuation of that.

ronjo

Since the premier league started I can't think of better player battle than those two. As an Arsenal fan Keane was the one we loved to hate and it was the opposite for United fans.
Hell they still sing about him.

dreamers75

Not a fan of Keane but this was a gem

If you love Senegal so much, why don’t you play for them?

EDIT found that on a list and this was further down

I was asked by ITV to do the Celtic versus Manchester United game but I’ve done it once for Sky and never again. I’d rather go to the dentist. You’re sitting there with people like Richard Keys and they’re trying to sell something that’s not there. Any time I watch a game on television, I have to turn the commentators off. They say “he’s playing well” and I’m thinking “no, he’s not.” My advice to anyone is don’t listen to the experts, just watch the game and gather your own opinions.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/wrath-of-keane-top-10-royatribes-249845.html

DeanAustin

dreamers75 wrote: »

Not a fan of Keane but this was a gem

It is funny and Keane is entertaining but you could have heard the pane smashing in his glass house.

Rhys Essien

Looking forward to this.

They had a trailer for this on ITV yesterday during the FA cup match where Keane and Vieira were discussing who had the better players.Keane was picking Denis Irwin while Vieira was saying that A.Cole is/was better.

RayCon

lala88 wrote: »

Keane always lambasted this type of thing, as well as punditry. You live by the sword you die by it as they say. Him doing these things means that instead of the high-standard-having pro who stood up for himself and never accepted second best that we thought he was, he was actually just a bit of a windbag.

The truth is that Keane no longer has any street cred, except with those whose hearts veto their heads.This silly TV programme is in keeping with his demise. As a player he was world-class, since then he has been an embarrassment. His only comparative contemporary is Australian cricketer Shane Warne who also smeared a great legacy. Keane has been thrown a lifeline by the FAI and we all wish him luck. His dwindling band of sycophants love to say "Keano owes nobody anything". They're wrong, he owes it to himself to pull his head in and regain the respect his fellow countrymen showed him pre-2002.

Johnny Rotten sells butter , Lemmy sells beer , Iggy Pop sells fcukin insurance ...

Kill your idols.

kryogen

DeanAustin wrote: »

Get real. Roy Keane was never the "win at all costs, highest standards possible" caricature. He always did what was best for Roy Keane and f**k everyone else.

The man was a great player, one of the best. However, he was always self serving and his hypocrisy in becoming a pundit is just a continuation of that.

Just for ****s and giggles Id like to pose a question

In 1999, when Keane was booked in the semi final of the Champions League, and going to miss the final either way, which part of the performance he gave in that match, heralded by so many as one of the greatest individual performances of all time, where he dragged his team to the final and made sure that they would be there even if he couldn't be, was self serving?

I eagerly await your response

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

Just for ****s and giggles Id like to pose a question

In 1999, when Keane was booked in the semi final of the Champions League, and going to miss the final either way, which part of the performance he gave in that match, heralded by so many as one of the greatest individual performances of all time, where he dragged his team to the final and made sure that they would be there even if he couldn't be, was self serving?

I eagerly await your response

The fact most people remember it as such 13 years later.

I'll pose a question or two for you.

1. When Man U were 1-1 against their city rivals, what part of deliberately getting sent off to avenge a 4 year old grudge was showing a will to win?

2. When Man U were 1-1 against Sunderland in 2002 (I think), what part of sticking his elbow into Jason McAteer's face and getting sent off to avenge comments made in the press were showing a will to win?

What part of the subsequent bans helped out his team mates and club?

In 1999, had Keane any selfish reason not to deliver that performance, he wouldn't have delivered that performance. The fact he did is testament to the fact that he was a great player.

However, the fact he got sent off in two games to avenge (petty) grudges when they were finely balanced and he knew he was going to be banned shows that, when it suited him, Roy Keane came first and winning came second.

Mr.Micro

It's great to hear him being frank about Ferguson and calling it as it is.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25307471

He has no time for Ferguson whatsoever. I'd imagine the feeling is mutual.

kryogen

Em, people spoke about it as such at the time. Strange you wouldn't remember that

Also, since you couldn't answer the question all you had to do was say that instead of wasting your time trying to deflect

DeanAustin wrote: »

The fact most people remember it as such 13 years later.

I'll pose a question or two for you.

1. When Man U were 1-1 against their city rivals, what part of deliberately getting sent off to avenge a 4 year old grudge was showing a will to win?

2. When Man U were 1-1 against Sunderland in 2002 (I think), what part of sticking his elbow into Jason McAteer's face and getting sent off to avenge comments made in the press were showing a will to win?

What part of the subsequent bans helped out his team mates and club?

In 1999, had Keane any selfish reason not to deliver that performance, he wouldn't have delivered that performance. The fact he did is testament to the fact that he was a great player.

However, the fact he got sent off in two games to avenge (petty) grudges when they were finely balanced and he knew he was going to be banned shows that, when it suited him, Roy Keane came first and winning came second.

A Primal Nut

kryogen wrote: »

Just for ****s and giggles Id like to pose a question

In 1999, when Keane was booked in the semi final of the Champions League, and going to miss the final either way, which part of the performance he gave in that match, heralded by so many as one of the greatest individual performances of all time, where he dragged his team to the final and made sure that they would be there even if he couldn't be, was self serving?

I eagerly await your response

I think people exaggerate a bit about Keane winning it on his own. Keane's goal in particular is part of that story as most people know it but actually he scored 10 minutes before his booking. It's a long time ago now but I remember how good Cole & Yorke combined that night.

Also here is a report from that night by the Guardian: use ctrl+f to read all the mentions of Stam to see how important he was.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/1999/apr/21/newsstory.sport6

Keane was excellent that night but this idea that he dragged them through almost on his own is a bit much.

Also had to laugh at him saying Ferguson has an ego and questioning Fergusons loyalty recently. This is the guy who criticised all his teammates in public and then invited them around to watch it. Can't get much more disloyal or egotistical than that.

kryogen

He really did though, his performance set the tone and really unless you saw it then, your not gonna see it now. I wont attempt to convince you either.

He was the engine, the driving force of Uniteds success for so long his contribution really can not be questioned, nor can the statement that he is basically the ultimate team player.

He does whatever is needed for the team, he became a goal scoring midfielder again to propel Ireland to a WC in 2002, he was the midfield general for so long at United, demanding and dragging performances out of players that they probably didn't think they were capable of even. He stood up to anyone on the outside who dared to challenge a member of his team while also.

His bitterness toward Fergie I don't care about, this seemingly bitterness he has to others at the club I don't get though, to leave Scholes out of his best XI he has played with is insane (he says they insisted he put himself in so Scholes dropped out, but you pick Scholes over Ince any day of the week ffs)

One more thing, he gave an interview, which was never broadcast and was only shown to the team to get their opinion on whether it had been to harsh or not is one thing, but if you cant see his point regarding Fergie and his disloyalty since he retired, not just to Keane, to others who went out and put their bodies on the line for him and won him trophies then that's your problem.

His point there is very valid.

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

Em, people spoke about it as such at the time. Strange you wouldn't remember that

Also, since you couldn't answer the question all you had to do was say that instead of wasting your time trying to deflect

I answered the question. It was a great performance but the man had no selfish reason to do anything other than play well. He wasn't going to benefit from getting sent off or sulking and delivered the sort or performance that made him a great player.

I notice you ignored the two examples I gave that proved when Keane could benefit from bring destructive Manchester United, winning, his team mates, his fans and the integrity of the game came second to his ego.

kryogen

DeanAustin wrote: »

I answered the question. It was a great performance but the man had no selfish reason to do anything other than play well. He wasn't going to benefit from getting sent off or sulking and delivered the sort or performance that made him a great player.

I notice you ignored the two examples I gave that proved when Keane could benefit from bring destructive Manchester United, winning, his team mates, his fans and the integrity of the game came second to his ego.

You didn't answer the question. If you like I can repeat the question in a shorter format?

I refuse to give your nonsense the time of day tbh, I don't need to respond to them surely

The_Kew_Tour

lol

You have to wonder what some posters would be smoking.

On the documentary I say it will be good.

United v Arsenal rivalry in its day was unbeatable. Nothing has come close since. Some games.

kryogen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

lol

You have to wonder what some posters would be smoking.

On the documentary I say it will be good.

United v Arsenal rivalry in its day was unbeatable. Nothing has come close since. Some games.

100% agree

The period of the league when United and Arsenal were battling it out every year with two strong teams was brilliant to watch, haven't enjoyed a rivalry as much since.

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

You didn't answer the question. If you like I can repeat the question in a shorter format?

I refuse to give your nonsense the time of day tbh, I don't need to respond to them surely

Ah come on now. I've said the Turin performance was magnificent and wasn't self serving but there was nothing to be gained for Keane by doing anything else other than trying.

That doesn't invalidate my original point. I said when it suits Keane, he thinks of only Roy Keane. I have given you two cast iron examples of when he put his own agenda above winning thereby proving my original point. You want to have the debate then at least offer a counter argument to those examples. Otherwise admit youre wrong.

WoollyRedHat

lala88 wrote: »

Keane always lambasted this type of thing, as well as punditry. You live by the sword you die by it as they say. Him doing these things means that instead of the high-standard-having pro who stood up for himself and never accepted second best that we thought he was, he was actually just a bit of a windbag.

The truth is that Keane no longer has any street cred, except with those whose hearts veto their heads.This silly TV programme is in keeping with his demise. As a player he was world-class, since then he has been an embarrassment. His only comparative contemporary is Australian cricketer Shane Warne who also smeared a great legacy. Keane has been thrown a lifeline by the FAI and we all wish him luck. His dwindling band of sycophants love to say "Keano owes nobody anything". They're wrong, he owes it to himself to pull his head in and regain the respect his fellow countrymen showed him pre-2002.

Lol talk about a bunch of hyperbole and contradicting your opening post, where you say it should be worth a watch and then go on to call it silly programming...

Martin Walker

People change.

Roy Keane was a professional footballer with a big mouth.
Roy Keane was a manager with a big mouth.
Roy Keane is now a football pundit with a big mouth.

I don't really see the issue here.

Also Turin was all Keane. What he done for the cause that night was immense. Your mad or bitter if you think otherwise.

kryogen

That doesn't invalidate my original point. I said when it suits Keane, he thinks of only Roy Keane.

No this was your original claim

DeanAustin wrote: »

Get real. Roy Keane was never the "win at all costs, highest standards possible" caricature. He always did what was best for Roy Keane and f**k everyone else.

The man was a great player, one of the best. However, he was always self serving and his hypocrisy in becoming a pundit is just a continuation of that.

DeanAustin wrote: »

Ah come on now. I've said the Turin performance was magnificent and wasn't self serving but there was nothing to be gained for Keane by doing anything else other than trying.

The above is an admission that you were wrong, thank you

/done

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

No this was your original claim






The above is an admission that you were wrong, thank you

/done

Haha yer spoofing now.

He always did what was best for Keane. That night in Turin, that performance was what was best for Keane. He had no agenda or motivation to do otherwise.

You have claimed that Keane is unquestionably "the ultimate team player" but won't offer any explanation as to how you reconcile that with the fact that he twice got himself deliberately sent off and banned in games where United weren't winning to settle old personal scores.

If you can't counter the fact that he did that, you're in the wrong and can't admit it.

kryogen

Honestly, its hurting my head, the reasoning behind his immense selfless performance in Turin was for selfish reasons?

Nope, I wont be touching any more of that man.

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

Honestly, its hurting my head, the reasoning behind his immense selfless performance in Turin was for selfish reasons?

Nope, I wont be touching any more of that man.

You're on the run...

Forget Turin. We agree on that pretty much.

Just tell me how a man who twice gets himself deliberately sent off in tight games is the ultimate team player.

If you can't it's fine. We will just agree to disagree. Thankfully the facts are on my side.

The_Kew_Tour

kryogen wrote: »

Honestly, its hurting my head, the reasoning behind his immense selfless performance in Turin was for selfish reasons?

Nope, I wont be touching any more of that man.

Im as buggled as you.

I mean to say majority of players (plenty more then once) have got themselves sent off for reckless challenges.

Anyway its late :-)

K4t

DeanAustin wrote: »

You're on the run...

Forget Turin. We agree on that pretty much.

Just tell me how a man who twice gets himself deliberately sent off in tight games is the ultimate team player.

If you can't it's fine. We will just agree to disagree. Thankfully the facts are on my side.

The Mcateer incident was foolish I'll admit but I can forgive the Halaand debacle even if I don't agree with what he did. It was understandable, not saying it was right though.

You seem to have some agenda here, all great players are self serving in some way, it's what makes them stand out and rise above the rest. For most stars, it's often their attitude in that they often are quick to moan and complain when things start getting tough (see c. ronaldo for example on many occasions throughout his career) and for others like Keane it was his temper and part of what can only be described as his 'darkside'.

To say he was compeltely 'self serving' as a player though is simply ridiculous and everyone else in this thread knows it so I'd advise you to give it a rest?

DeanAustin

K4t wrote: »

You seem to have some agenda here

I'll debunk this straight away. I have no agenda beyond debating the merits of Roy Keane being someone who valued winning over everything based on facts and documented evidence.

In fact, two of the three people taking the opposite view are Man U fans (possibly you are too?). That's a potential bias right there that stops them debating the merits of my argument by judging Keane through their red tinted glasses.

Just so you're clear. I don't support Liverpool or City and have massive respect for United. I think they're a great club with an incredible history. I have huge respect for Alex Ferguson, despite disagreeing with some of his methods, I think people like Giggs, Scholes, Beckham (to name three recent players) were great footballers with real character. I believe that Roy Keane was a phenomenal player but don't buy into the myth that he put winning above everything else. The facts back me up.

K4t wrote: »

The Mcateer incident was foolish I'll admit but I can forgive the Halaand debacle even if I don't agree with what he did. It was understandable, not saying it was right though.?

I find that claim very strange from someone who supposedly follows football but I'll take the bait. You mind explaining it to me?

K4t wrote: »

all great players are self serving in some way, it's what makes them stand out and rise above the rest. For most stars, it's often their attitude in that they often are quick to moan and complain when things start getting tough (see c. ronaldo for example on many occasions throughout his career) and for others like Keane it was his temper and part of what can only be described as his 'darkside'..

Okay, taking someone like Ronaldo, nobody holds him up as someone who wanted to "win at all costs". He has a reputation as a petulant me feiner despite arguably being the world's greatest player. There is also a difference between habitually moaning and pre-meditated attacks that get you sent off and banned in games where your team is not winning.

Most players are self serving but they don't do destructive things like get sent off to settle old scores when their team isn't winning. What Keane did was also cowardly. It was akin to the fella who throws in a kick when their adversary is on the ground already. He deliberately attacked two men in the heat of battle when they weren't expecting it to settle a score. At least have the balls and character to confront them off the pitch if you want to do that.

dreamers75

http://www.sundayworld.com/sport/soccer/keane-admits-mistakes-in-world-cup-war

DEN DEN DEN!!!!!

"Mick did say to me that if you don't respect me how can you play for me? And what I should have said was I wasn't playing for him I was playing for my country, but by then it had gone."

From the BBC thing someone posted:

Keane believes Ferguson's praise for him in his recently-released autobiography for "covering every blade of grass" in United's 1999 Champions League semi-final second leg against Juventus was disparaging.
"Stuff like that almost insults me. I get offended when people give quotes like that about me. It's like praising the postman for delivering letters," he said.

bucketybuck

Some rubbish being spouted in here.

eyescreamcone

bucketybuck wrote: »

Some rubbish being spouted in here.

I'll see you out there.

Vinz Mesrine

Is anybody watching?

witnessmenow

I am, I think this is an amazing idea for a show!

yermandan

great so far

witnessmenow

Best Manager you played for -

Keane: "Without a shadow of a doubt, Brian Clough"
Interviewer: "Not Sir Alex?"
Keane: "You asked me the question..."

supersean1999

witnessmenow wrote: »

Best Manager you played for -

Keane: "Without a shadow of a doubt, Brian Clough"
Interviewer: "Not Sir Alex?"
Keane: "You asked me the question..."

Thought he Would say mc carthy

n32

supersean1999 wrote: »

Thought he Would say mc carthy

or Big Jack!

tipperary

Favourite quote from Roy, on what was Viera's biggest weakness: "he wasn't as tough as me"

retalivity

its a bit....weird

"Does he intimidate you?"
"He.......he....excites me"

BNMC

Brilliant so far. You can see they both have great respect for eachother.

Alfred Borden

This is truely brilliant, two warriors, two fantastic teams, really miss the old days watching this

DeanAustin

witnessmenow wrote: »

Best Manager you played for -

Keane: "Without a shadow of a doubt, Brian Clough"
Interviewer: "Not Sir Alex?"
Keane: "You asked me the question..."

He is pure box office to be fair. You know he is lying or his judgement is clouded by the falling out. If he had been pushed to rank his top 5 managers in order you know Mick, Jack, Kerr and the lad at Cobh would have completed his list.

witnessmenow

I dont know what it is but this is absolutely fantastic TV, its so unusual or something, its really honest. Im not even a United or Arsenal fan.