Keano Vieira documentary: mod warning post in OP and post #331

adox

Al Capwned wrote: »

Whoooosh!!!!

:pac:


______

Twas a joke.....

When you need to explain it...

IamtheWalrus

MD1990 wrote: »

a Ronaldo Vs Messi one at the end of there careers would be brillant

Compared to Keane those 2 are yawn festivals.

SlickRic

Fergie v Rafa could make great viewing.

obviously they were only really rivals at the top for a season or 2, but still.

LiamoSail

[

SlickRic wrote: »

Fergie v Rafa could make great viewing.

obviously they were only really rivals at the top for a season or 2, but still.

That would be good alright, though highly doubt ferguson would do it

Another I'd like to see would be Neil Lennon v Ally McCoist, particularly to hear what was send prior to the handbags two years ago. Would also be interesting in the context of Rangers liquidation and the numerous threats made against Lennon

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

Why do you say that?

And don't say it's because Keano ended Hallands career, he didn't.

The knee that Keano made contact with isn't the one that caused his (Hallands) retirement.

Oh well that's fine then.

RasTa

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Yawn.People like you probably have never even been to Cork but like the old lazy generalising crap.

Cork people are mental, everybody knows that.

keane2097

Agricola wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Certainly, Fergie's recent book is playing a big factor in Keane's choice, but even from his 2002 autobiography, you get the feeling that Keane has a very large soft spot for Clough and his methods. Even 10 years ago reading that book, I felt he rated Clough more as a manager.

This. He had Clough as his favourite manager years before the love affair with Ferguson ever ended.

DeanAustin wrote: »

It is well documented that Clough was struggling with alcohol abuse towards the end of his reign. Just looking at interviews from that time paint that picture. There is no doubt that Clough was a great man and manager and that he had a positive influence on Roy Keane. It would be stupid to argue otherwise.

However, I cannot believe that someone as driven as Roy Keane would, in the cold light of day, rank a man who managed him to two unsuccessful cup finals and his only relegation above a man who managed him to 7 league titles and 4 FA Cups. It's good that people will make a case for Clough but the argument is not credible in the context of what Keane was asked.

Keane was having a pop at Fergie, playing the game the same way he said Fergie was when he thanked Keane for his 11.5 years at United. The fact that he admitted that he lost his love for United but had it back now that "that man" is gone says everything about the grudge Keane holds against Fergie.

It's incredible that the relationship has soured this much albeit with two personalities like that, I suppose you can see how it would.

Having presumably never played under either of them I find your pontification on a matter of someone else's personal preference a bit off-putting.

Oranage2

SlickRic wrote: »

Fergie v Rafa could make great viewing.

obviously they were only really rivals at the top for a season or 2, but still.

For Liverpool fans, nobody else would care. Fact!

The_Kew_Tour

It would be Fergie and Wenger anyway

brianregan09

Can't believe no one has mentioned the Drogba documentary that was on afterwards amazing stuff

The_Kew_Tour

Drogba getting fined at weekend was a joke

allybhoy

Was anyone as surprised as i was at Viera's omission of Overmars? I know he was only there 3 seasons and he only won the premier league that first year, but I think his arrival was one of the main catalysts of the success of that arsenal team for years to come, his signing was a statement of intent, similar to Bergkamp. Id have him ahead of Ljungberg, I know Ljungberg had a longer career and was a great player for Arsenal but surely Ovemars is better

DeanAustin

keane2097 wrote: »

This. He had Clough as his favourite manager years before the love affair with Ferguson ever ended.



Having presumably never played under either of them I find your pontification on a matter of someone else's personal preference a bit off-putting.

You do know that this is a message board, yeah? I just don't believe Keane. You do. Grand. We can agree to disagree.

If that's genuinely his opinion then good for him. I just struggle to believe he's not taking a dig at Fergie.

Hangballlouie

Oranage2 wrote: »

For Liverpool fans, nobody else would care. Fact!

You genuinely need to get the ride pal.

keane2097

DeanAustin wrote: »

You do know that this is a message board, yeah? I just don't believe Keane. You do. Grand. We can agree to disagree.

If that's genuinely his opinion then good for him. I just struggle to believe he's not taking a dig at Fergie.

You're patently incorrect in your assertion that Keane could only choose Clough over Ferguson due to bitterness, as shown by the book he released in 2002.

DeanAustin

keane2097 wrote: »

You're patently incorrect in your assertion that Keane could only choose Clough over Ferguson due to bitterness, as shown by the book he released in 2002.

If I am, I am and I'll hold my hands up. Just seems like a very unusual opinion for a man like Keane to have. What did he actually say in 2002?

Oranage2

hangballlouie wrote: »

You genuinely need to get the ride pal.

Okay kid, now please let the adults talk now.

LiamoSail

DeanAustin wrote: »

If I am, I am and I'll hold my hands up. Just seems like a very unusual opinion for a man like Keane to have.

Not necessarily. The best manager in Roy Keane's eyes is probably a no nonsense style manager, simiilar to how Ferguson had been, or how Brian Clough was.

It's not a comparison on the basis of success, but one on the basis of style. In a similar vein, I would imagine Keane wouldn't necessarily like a manager like Guadiola or Wenger, on the basis that he'd favour a manager taking the hard line approach

Iang87

Was keane not almost the finished article when united signed him, not world class like he became but wouldn't he attribute most of his growth to Clough as opposed to Ferguson

rosskind

Great viewing. Vieira came across really well. Keane was courting controversy as usual but still very entertaining. Keane's a good actor though, impressive delivery on him.

Is there anything going on with the current group (Gigss, Scholes, Neville) with the dubious selections? I wonder if he felt they should have stood up for him when he was released.

Cantona's Collars

It's up on youtube now,not going to embed the videos as it's in 5 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNna61IS6ZE

DeanAustin

LiamoSail wrote: »

Not necessarily. The best manager in Roy Keane's eyes is probably a no nonsense style manager, simiilar to how Ferguson had been, or how Brian Clough was.

It's not a comparison on the basis of success, but one on the basis of style. In a similar vein, I would imagine Keane wouldn't necessarily like a manager like Guadiola or Wenger, on the basis that he'd favour a manager taking the hard line approach

Perhaps. But the question was "who is the best manager you have played for?". It wasn't "who did you enjoy playing for the most?" (IIRC).

From that question, you have to ask, what a manager's job and, fundamentally, when you strip it down, it's to win football matches and trophies.

Given Keane had a hunger to win 99.9% of the time, I find it strange that he'd go for Clough over Fergie. But, hey, if he genuinely believes that, he genuinely believes it and if he stated it while him and Fergie were on good terms then better again.

doncarlos

LiamoSail wrote: »

[


That would be good alright, though highly doubt ferguson would do it

Another I'd like to see would be Neil Lennon v Ally McCoist, particularly to hear what was send prior to the handbags two years ago. Would also be interesting in the context of Rangers liquidation and the numerous threats made against Lennon

Exciting stuff. Maybe TG4 will take it up

LuckyLloyd

DeanAustin: people often hold different opinions on past experiences / people in their lives than I objectively think they should. There are a myriad of reasons why that may be so in any particular case, but the ultimate common strand is that humans are flawed and perception is personal and subjective.

LiamoSail

DeanAustin wrote: »

Perhaps. But the question was "who is the best manager you have played for?". It wasn't "who did you enjoy playing for the most?" (IIRC).

From that question, you have to ask, what a manager's job and, fundamentally, when you strip it down, it's to win football matches and trophies.

Given Keane had a hunger to win 99.9% of the time, I find it strange that he'd go for Clough over Fergie. But, hey, if he genuinely believes that, he genuinely believes it and if he stated it while him and Fergie were on good terms then better again.

Whatever about the success achieved by the pair of them, at time of Keane's sacking, he would have seen Ferguson's soft approach as a weakness. In his eyes, obviously knocking heads was required, not kid gloves. It's fair to say so that he would have backed Clough to handle things better at that point, believing his approach to be that of the better manager.

Had Clough been in Ferguson's position, Keane obviously believes Clough would have done better. The potential of Nottingham forest and Manchester United are worlds apart, so it follows that their respective success are also going to be

Hangballlouie

Oranage2 wrote: »

Okay kid, now please let the adults talk now.

I wish I was a kid. Maybe I would then understand why you are so obsessed with Liverpool. Looking for a bite off someone constantly. Enjoy your clubs success instead off trying to wind others up. Leave the bedroom, go shower and go out to the big bad world. It isn't as scary as television makes it out to be.

DeanAustin

LiamoSail wrote: »

Whatever about the success achieved by the pair of them, at time of Keane's sacking, he would have seen Ferguson's soft approach as a weakness. In his eyes, obviously knocking heads was required, not kid gloves. It's fair to say so that he would have backed Clough to handle things better at that point, believing his approach to be that of the better manager.

Had Clough been in Ferguson's position, Keane obviously believes Clough would have done better. The potential of Nottingham forest and Manchester United are worlds apart, so it follows that their respective success are also going to be

Fair enough mate. I see your point. I don't agree but it does make sense.

kryogen

Really enjoyed it, two great leaders who always had a mutual respect for each other even though they went at each other hammer and nails

People are making a bit too much out of the best XI's, and some of the moments, like the disagreement over the left back slot in the ultimate XI were hilarious

rosskind

Couldn't they have moved Irwin to right back? Problem sorted. :P

Oranage2

hangballlouie wrote: »

I wish I was a kid. Maybe I would then understand why you are so obsessed with Liverpool. Looking for a bite off someone constantly. Enjoy your clubs success instead off trying to wind others up. Leave the bedroom, go shower and go out to the big bad world. It isn't as scary as television makes it out to be.

You know nothing about me or my life so please keep your silly little comments to yourself!

GavRedKing

Handbags away please ladies.

Oranage2 wrote: »

You know nothing about me or my life so please keep your silly little comments to yourself!

hangballlouie wrote: »

I wish I was a kid. Maybe I would then understand why you are so obsessed with Liverpool. Looking for a bite off someone constantly. Enjoy your clubs success instead off trying to wind others up. Leave the bedroom, go shower and go out to the big bad world. It isn't as scary as television makes it out to be.

Oranage2 wrote: »

Okay kid, now please let the adults talk now.

hangballlouie wrote: »

You genuinely need to get the ride pal.

DeanAustin

kryogen wrote: »

Really enjoyed it, two great leaders who always had a mutual respect for each other even though they went at each other hammer and nails

That's why I think the Keane - Vieira rivalry works for this show better than other rivalries.

They hated each other professionally, are very tough people, were great players, were successful, embodied a fierce rivalry between their respective clubs but had a mutual respect for each other.

Fergie-Wenger would work for this but if you had Fergie and Benitez, there would be punches thrown. If you had Gerrard and Lampard, it'd be dull. They're a pair of fannies by comparison. Likewise Ronaldo and Messi (great as they are).

There aren't many footballers who were rivals like these two but who don't want to choke each other in real life.

The_Kew_Tour

DeanAustin wrote: »

That's why I think the Keane - Vieira rivalry works for this show better than other rivalries.

They hated each other professionally, are very tough people, were great players, were successful, embodied a fierce rivalry between their respective clubs but had a mutual respect for each other.

Fergie-Wenger would work for this but if you had Fergie and Benitez, there would be punches thrown. If you had Gerrard and Lampard, it'd be dull. They're a pair of fannies by comparison. Likewise Ronaldo and Messi (great as they are).

There aren't many footballers who were rivals like these two but who don't want to choke each other in real life.

spot on there

Agricola

DeanAustin wrote: »

Perhaps. But the question was "who is the best manager you have played for?". It wasn't "who did you enjoy playing for the most?" (IIRC).

From that question, you have to ask, what a manager's job and, fundamentally, when you strip it down, it's to win football matches and trophies.

Given Keane had a hunger to win 99.9% of the time, I find it strange that he'd go for Clough over Fergie. But, hey, if he genuinely believes that, he genuinely believes it and if he stated it while him and Fergie were on good terms then better again.

LiamoSail wrote: »

Whatever about the success achieved by the pair of them, at time of Keane's sacking, he would have seen Ferguson's soft approach as a weakness. In his eyes, obviously knocking heads was required, not kid gloves. It's fair to say so that he would have backed Clough to handle things better at that point, believing his approach to be that of the better manager.

Had Clough been in Ferguson's position, Keane obviously believes Clough would have done better. The potential of Nottingham forest and Manchester United are worlds apart, so it follows that their respective success are also going to be

To add to what Liam said, I think Keane generally has more affection for Clough for reasons off the pitch as well as on. He was obviously his first manager outside Ireland and didnt he mention in his book how he appreciated how Clough treated his parents when he signed, and how whenever he was a bit homesick as a young lad, Clough would invariably let him off back to Cork for a couple of days when he should have been in Nottingham training. All that stuff probably feeds into it.

He also mentioned in 2002 how Ferguson had opened his eyes to the ruthless aspect of top level football. It didnt matter how long you were there, or how important a player you were, if you slackened off slightly or got big ideas about yourself, you were out the door. Strangely, you would think this kind of approach would be the very thing that Keane would champion himself, but theres a hint of bitterness about it when he reflects on the way Ferguson treated some players and obviously, in the end, himself. He is nothing if not a bag of contradictions.

Agricola

DeanAustin wrote: »

That's why I think the Keane - Vieira rivalry works for this show better than other rivalries.

They hated each other professionally, are very tough people, were great players, were successful, embodied a fierce rivalry between their respective clubs but had a mutual respect for each other.

Fergie-Wenger would work for this but if you had Fergie and Benitez, there would be punches thrown. If you had Gerrard and Lampard, it'd be dull. They're a pair of fannies by comparison. Likewise Ronaldo and Messi (great as they are).

There aren't many footballers who were rivals like these two but who don't want to choke each other in real life.

Exactly, not sure if this would work with any other pairing.

Vieira liked to mention a couple of times last night, that him and Keane were similar. But im not so sure. You can see from Vieira that whatever it was that drove him to success was very different to Keane. He seems like a pleasant man in general who only put on his "game face" when he crossed the white line. Keane on the other hand was obviously a player who was raging against himself and everyone around him from the minute he got up, til the minute he went to bed. An intriguing individual.

kryogen

Watching it again, some of the wind ups are brilliant, Keane to Vieira "Your probably still thinking about that pass to Giggsy"? A debate about why nobody fouls Giggs to take him out ensues. Then at the end, Keane again " Do you think about that pass? Do you think about it"?

Utter trolling at its best

Fowler87

Enjoyed that.

Its interesting that Vieira thought that United won more matches than Arsenal when not at their best, as Arsenal relied more on the flair/ability of the group of players whereas United' drive and aggressiveness mainly down to Keane was their main force in getting through those 'off' games.. That is perhaps true but imo gets overshadowed by how much ability as a footballer Keane had in that midfield role for United for over a decade. Perhaps the best centre midfielder to ever come out of Ireland

Hangballlouie

kryogen wrote: »

Watching it again, some of the wind ups are brilliant, Keane to Vieira "Your probably still thinking about that pass to Giggsy"? A debate about why nobody fouls Giggs to take him out ensues. Then at the end, Keane again " Do you think about that pass? Do you think about it"?

Utter trolling at its best

He's a tough man is Keane but It seems to me looking at him that Fergie's criticism of him really hurt him. You're right it was a fantastic watch and like everything else he's involved in, Keane dominated the proceedings. I'd love if he did a proper documentary just about him, ala the 30 for 30 series on ESPN. They could do 30 different documentaries on the fella's life and each on would be as riveting as the other.

DeanAustin

Agricola wrote: »

Exactly, not sure if this would work with any other pairing.

Vieira liked to mention a couple of times last night, that him and Keane were similar. But im not so sure. You can see from Vieira that whatever it was that drove him to success was very different to Keane. He seems like a pleasant man in general who only put on his "game face" when he crossed the white line. Keane on the other hand was obviously a player who was raging against himself and everyone around him from the minute he got up, til the minute he went to bed. An intriguing individual.

I think it was intriguing that Keane said that fear drove him. That he was terrified of leaving everyone else down. It's not what you associate with a lot of top sports people but is probably more common than we realise. It made him look a bit insecure in some ways and may explain why he rated Clough so highly (because of the touchy feely stuff when he was signing that you spoke about above).

Whatever drove him, he is pure box office, completely fascinating, infinitely more interesting that the beige ex-pros that pass as pundits and, as you say, a walking bag of contradictions.

I don't like the man from what I know of him but I can't help but be entertained by him.

DeanAustin

hangballlouie wrote: »

He's a tough man is Keane but It seems to me looking at him that Fergie's criticism of him really hurt him. You're right it was a fantastic watch and like everything else he's involved in, Keane dominated the proceedings. I'd love if he did a proper documentary just about him, ala the 30 for 30 series on ESPN. They could do 30 different documentaries on the fella's life and each on would be as riveting as the other.

Fergie was the only man in his professional playing career that cast him aside and didn't want him.

Mick f**ked him out of the Ireland squad but that was because Keane had made his position untenable. Fergie ruthlessly got rid of him and was the only one, through his actions, to say "I don't want you or your footballing ability and I can cope without you".

That must hurt Keane.

the_monkey

This is getting rave reviews, is it availble on the ITV player ?

Nerdlingr

the_monkey wrote: »

This is getting rave reviews, is it availble on the ITV player ?

*Hank Scorpio*

That awkward moment seeing David Connolly at Feyenoord at 24:37.

Tippex

I wish someone would air the damned MUTV interview and let everyone decide if it was as explosive as has been made out. Never going to happen in my opinion (as long as SAF is involved anyway)

IamtheWalrus

kryogen wrote: »

"Your probably still thinking about that pass to Giggsy"? A debate about why nobody fouls Giggs to take him out ensues.

Never rated that goal. Anyone could have dribbled, untackled through that defence. Way overrated.

kryogen

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Never rated that goal. Anyone could have dribbled, untackled through that defence. Way overrated.

Really?

The balance that he showed and little feints and drops of the shoulder along with the finish were pretty impressive either way

Pretty iconic moment actually

IamtheWalrus

kryogen wrote: »

Really?

The balance that he showed and little feints and drops of the shoulder along with the finish were pretty impressive either way

Pretty iconic moment actually

Not one tackle.. It was crying out for a subtle body check, problem solved.

Demosthenese

kryogen wrote: »

Really?

The balance that he showed and little feints and drops of the shoulder along with the finish were pretty impressive either way

Pretty iconic moment actually

It wasn't like he striped them on the wing with power and pace, some of them kinda fell over! LOL ... but still something of an important pivot point on the quest for the treble - as someone who obviously didn't want to see United win the treble, Arsenal have alot to answer for that day, Bergkamp crap Peno, Arsenal backline who would normally be tight enough to knock over a bank - but Keano was right, take his legs in middle of the field - no worries.

Even by todays standards though, gotta be fair, it was an outrageous goal.

adox

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Never rated that goal. Anyone could have dribbled, untackled through that defence. Way overrated.

Thought you were taking the piss but it seems not.


Strange.

Rayne Wooney

His best 11 is his personal preference ffs. Everyone's will be different.

It's so childish how outraged some people are getting about it.