Kilkee 2014

tunney

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

Thanks I needed a good laugh.

mossym

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

i reckon if you knew who Huff n puff is you;d change your tune, the guy is instrumental in keeping a local tri club going, and from what i've seen & heard does a lot more than most in ireland to get people involved in both tri and cycling.

and like it or not there are two races going on, those in it to win and those in it who know they won't but want to do their best. do you want to tell Trevor woods, matt molly they don't get to go head to head with the fastest and have to start 4 waves later because of age group ranking? these guys finished in the top 10.

national champs should be about letting the best duke it out. you do that by putting them on a start line and letting them duke it out.

elite wave works at races all over the world, no reason it can't work here

zico10

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

I don't think he finds what goes on down the back annoying at all, in fact he said when it came to the Nation Championships he couldn't care less. Huff n Puff is not an elite either, nobody racing on Saturday was. Every single person was an Age grouper and being brutally honest, barring some physical impediment, somebody way down the field couldn't possibly be training as hard as Huff n Puff or others like him.

I don't know him very well, but he founded and runs a great tri club in Nenagh. Others here would know far more about this than me, but all levels are catered for in the club. I'm sure he's aware that drafting is very likely to occur at the front of the field as well, just he's looks at where he could have performed better in the race instead of accusing those who finished ahead of him of drafting.

You should probably take a read of this, probably the best post I've ever read in this forum. He finished 2nd in HOTW that year behind a proper elite athlete, who just so happened to receive a penalty for drafting. Many on here and in the Irish tri community thought the penalty was way too lenient and Huff n Puff was robbed of 1st place. He was the only person on here that defended the winner and in the most gracious and magnanimous way said he wouldn't want to win under such circumstances.
Your post on the other hand...

Oldtrier

A bit of a misunderstanding about my post probably because I didn't make it clear. I don't know Huff n Puff, I accept what people are saying about him.. I have no problem with all the "elites"/best athletes all going together, I wouldn't like to see it any other way. My main objection was to the tone that implied that everyone outside the top 50 were eejits. I certainly took it that the National Championships were for this top 50 and the rest could bugger off somewhere else? While those of us further back are not at the pointy end of the race it still is galling if you are trying to avoid drafting, difficult and all as that is on a crowded course, when a large group passes all working together with no regard for the race rules.

Huff n Puff

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

Oh Lord, I know I shouldn't respond but............

Two seconds of investigation would probably lead you to my name = Shane Scully. If you really feel like getting offended then take a read of my blog www.shanescully.com. You will love it. Should give you plenty of ammunition. Care to give me your name so I know who I am talking to?

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant

Am I arrogant? I don't think so. I would like to think that most people who know me would say the exact opposite. I am forever putting myself down on my blog or any report I write. I know exactly where I stand in terms of triathlon ability, where others are absolutely delusional. When I compare myself to triathletes I compare myself to the top, elite guys and I am miles behind and so is almost everybody else in Ireland. People seem to take offense to that for some reason.

Oldtrier wrote: »

as well as back down with the "eejits".

There is no tone. You are taking the eejits word out of context - I am referring to the eejits down the back THAT DRAFT in pelotons which is now possibly going to result in a change of format for Kilkee next year.

Any drafting in the top 15 men was very light in comparision to the pelotons seen down the back. You don't tend to see the top men jumping directly behind wheels for miles and doing up and overs. It can be a hard drafting call to make for motor bike marshals.

Oldtrier wrote: »

If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying?

I don't find what goes on at the back annoying because at the moment it has no adverse effect on me. The day a peloton catches me on the bike is the day I start ranting and raving. The only reason I might find what goes on back there annoying is if those pelotons resulted in a change of format for Kilkee next year - as I said I don't like age group starts as it just doesn't feel like a proper race to me.

Oldtrier wrote: »

from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating.

I don't doubt that there was some low level cheating going on from the top men. But I also don't think it was enough to make any big difference in the race finish.

Oldtrier wrote: »

One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

I have been in the sport since the 90's so I have a good idea what it's all about and how things have changed over the years - some good, some bad.

As a coach of a triathlon team for 8 years. Working close to 15 hours of coaching a week for free (see my blog post on volunteering in the sport). I am fully aware of the hours each type of triathlete puts into the sport.

I formed a triathlon club and a cycling club and a junior cycling club and coach each. I organise close to 40 races each year and you would be hard pressed to find better value races out there (shameless plug!). In fact I am just after coming home from time keeping at the latest round of our 5km Run Series where we have all sorts of abilities (€2 entry - and all money given back in fun prizes). Tomorrow I will organise our Nenagh Summer League Bike race.

I don't believe tri is just for the first 50 and never have. I had 35 team mates of massively different abilities on the start line on Saturday. Heading down to Kilkee with friends is a huge part of what makes it special. Why would I not want them to compete with me?

I am not saying they should feck off somewhere else. Leave Kilkee as it is and sort the drafting or if you have to change it to age groups waves make sure you put in an elite wave. What's controversial or arrogant about that? It might sound a little elitist but, like it or not, thats what the top level of sport is.

I think you just took me up wrong. No harm done if you did.

Oldtrier

Hand up, I took you up completely wrong from reading your post I took it that you were only concerned with what went on in the top 50 and the rest down the field were eejits, apologies for the misinterpretation. As I said in my own post I thought that the race was one of the best I have ever raced but was to some extent spoiled by some mass drafting further down. One very large group (I estimate 30+) passed me towards the end and when shouted at them I and others got the usual unprintable reply, plus we met a draft marshal up the road who seemed to try to split them but as far as I could see issued no yellow cards. Those of us trying to stay legal lost time backing off to avoid becoming part of the peloton. Again apologies for the "arrogant" as I read from your post that those of us outside the top 50 could go do something else. I never disagreed with the notion that those good enough to race for overall positions should do so from the first wave regardless of age. Don't particularly want to put up my name, you know me and I will make myself known to you at the next race.

Huff n Puff

Oldtrier wrote: »

Hand up, I took you up completely wrong from reading your post I took it that you were only concerned with what went on in the top 50 and the rest down the field were eejits, apologies for the misinterpretation. As I said in my own post I thought that the race was one of the best I have ever raced but was to some extent spoiled by some mass drafting further down. One very large group (I estimate 30+) passed me towards the end and when shouted at them I and others got the usual unprintable reply, plus we met a draft marshal up the road who seemed to try to split them but as far as I could see issued no yellow cards. Those of us trying to stay legal lost time backing off to avoid becoming part of the peloton. Again apologies for the "arrogant" as I read from your post that those of us outside the top 50 could go do something else. I never disagreed with the notion that those good enough to race for overall positions should do so from the first wave regardless of age. Don't particularly want to put up my name, you know me and I will make myself known to you at the next race.

I wouldn't worry about it. I am sure I could have phrased things better in my original post.

Fair play to you for backing off when the packs came. I would like to think I would do the same but I fear if I was back there I would choose the pack. I don't really blame the competitors as much as others. The lines of people on the course just seemed so long. In my head I would think that if I started backing off once I would be in a never ending draft zone going backwards.

The abuse organisers get from people that are pinged for drafting penalties can be a bit OTT as well. Everyone swears innocence. Giving warnings can be enticing instead of having to deal with the fall out from penalties.

nudgertango

Podge83 wrote: »

National Sprint Championship in Camlough made the RTE News - Probably only because very little else happen that day. Its like Tunney says - no-one cares!! (except for those taking part).

The only Triathlon the general public care about is the one every 4 years in the Olympics. And then only if someone has a chance of a medal.

The Farmer leading his herd of cattle across the road during the Cycle stopping several certainly didn't care!! The Cattle upset my rhythm just as I was settling in behind a big lad giving me great shelter.

Did anyone else see the herd of cattle PODGE83 mentioned?

redved

Yup, came across them just before the road back to Doonbeg.
Had to stop and unclip. Not much you can do about it, I was glad of the break

Doeshedare

I encountered the cattle, who were clearly drafting and judging by their blk and white suits were all in the same club too but then they werent the only shower of inconsiderates I saw. When we, I mean I, came upon them they blocked half the road, a truck came the other way and stopped creating a moving chicane to get around and the driver, who knew the farmer, opened the cab door onto the on coming bikes just to make it more exciting. Other obstacles included a green van going up the last hill which I think was held up by a couple of slow cyclists but created a bit of mayhem as faster bikes gathered behind it to overtake and an earlier ancient tractor which swung on to the road with no appreciation of what was already on it

On the whole drafting thing - I am a mediocre cyclist on a regular road bike. I did not consciously draft on Saturday but nor did I conscientiously drop back every time someone crawled by me either and by the second half of the ride I seemed to be with the same 4 bikes. I agree with Huff an Puff - to avoid drafting, because the line was so long, logically I would have had to stop, let everyone by and start again.

I also agree with him that because it was the NC a wave of the top 100 (or whatever) going off first chasing line honours and being heavily marshalled makes sense. That means some top AG finishers from the various eejits waves will likely have cheated. I think most of my fellow eejits are competing against themselves (and I hammered my last year self by more than 20 mins thanks for asking) and I like to think the universe is karmic and the cheats will get found out for the ar*eholes they are.

I can see that cutting the numbers would reduce drafting but since I would likely be cut I am not for it - I mean the joy of Kilkee is in part the scale of the race v the size of the town and mingling with all the eejits after. I hope the sport continues to make room for Oldtriers as well as Huff and Puffers.

Lastly and most importantly thanks and fair play to LTC again for a great day.

peter kern

i think the good thing is after this weekend i guess the very last person has understood you need to have a seperate female and male start.

If only this comes out of this its a good thing

at the same time a few people need to move on to reality as we are not in the 90s anymore witn 25 people racing.

ther cant have been a single person that did not know what would be happen if it botheres you so much dont enter the race
or swim fast enough ( i said it again ;-) or do duathlon ;-)
if you enter adapt to the race conditons set up by TI

miller82

peter kern wrote: »

if you enter adapt to the race conditons set up by TI

as in...... get your drafting race face on ?

kingQuez

I love Kilkee, its a great course (especially when the weather is angry), brilliant buzz, and excellently organised race every year. But after this year I'm probably not going to enter again. I hadn't seen such deliberate drafting in a race before. It's a bit soul destroying to avoid drafting when you're a weak cyclist, while large peletons go past you and land fresh for the run with no penalties.

Podge83

Isn't the bike leg of a triathlon supposed to be akin to an individual time trial - TI rules on drafting differ from a standalone TT, but the race objectives are basically the same. TI and the race organizer should be trying to set up conditions where racing a TT is made possible.

As is, the race in no way resembles an individual time trial. Agreed that we must race in the conditions presented - The swim is as it should be - expect a few bumps etc - it goes with the territory, but as the cycle is basically a time trial, some attempt should be made to set it up as so.

Between 1) cars trying to get past you, 2) you getting past tractors, 3) trying to get past vans/ trucks slowing for other cyclists, 4) herds of cattle, 5) oncoming traffic (including oncoming frustrated cyclists ), 6) using energy trying not to draft and 7) constantly overtaking/ being overtaken by other cyclists, it's hardly the "race of truth" of Man or Woman against the road and the elements that it's meant to be. We know its not the 90's but surely the point of the race is to compete against the clock. In this century surely it should still be attempted to present the race as so.

I'm not having a go at any other posters here for their opinions - what people think including a great cross section of abilities from the top to the bottom of the field is great to read.

However, it's no wonder drafting happens so much - stop giving out about it and letting it bother you as it's here to stay - because that is what adapting to the race conditions set up by TI means!!

It things continue as they are, TT bikes will be banned and it'll be back to road bikes with drafting becoming an antiquated rule where the unwritten procedure will be to let it happen.

RacoonQueen

Kilkee had separate male and female waves last year (O40's and relays in with the women) and there was still drafting...numbers were much lower last year though so obviously not as evident as this year.

lizanne83

@ Huff n Puff I've just visited your blog. Utter class. Thanks for sharing! Bookmarked

I really enjoyed Kilkee, what a difference compared to last year. 16 mins off my time from last year.

Loved the swim and bike until my big toe-nail was yanked up when pulling foot out of cleat on bike return. Started a bloody mess.

Adrenaline kept me going and ran out of T2 with the pain nearly intolerable. Started running funny to compensate / protect my toe from loosening further resulted in deepening blisters (vaseline made no difference!) Was aiming for 4th /5th in category, alas had to settle for 6th.

Ran over the line with the top of my runner covered in blood!! Only when I got to ambulance I realised it was loosened from the nail bed and v-sore. Nail got fully pulled from nail bed yesterday (local anaesthetic!) which is making Lansborough sprint next wknd look unlikely So raw & sore! Rant over. Loved Kilkee just disappointed with run & unable to sprint (don't care that I lost the toe nail!)

Huff n Puff

lizanne83 wrote: »

@ Huff n Puff I've just visited your blog. Utter class. Thanks for sharing! Bookmarked

I really enjoyed Kilkee, what a difference compared to last year. 16 mins off my time from last year.

Glad to be of service. Well done on your improvement!

peter kern

there is a huge difference between drafting and adapting to the real world Sir. But a field of 27 and 1100 will have a different race dynamic, you can see it in hawaii that if you are not in the first pack in the swim it will be very hard for you to get a top 10 result. ( so dodnt complain if you enter and cant cycle like sebastian kienle)


Also like it or not but it was clear before the race what would happen on race day so people made an informed decison entering the race.

did i get as much benefit being in a group of 3 and for where over the whole race I passed each off them 4 times or so than the guy that comes out 50th and gets 45 times a slip stream pasing guys i dont think so. I am certainly not snow white as huff and puff says (ps huff and puff fazz is using outisde assitance though ;- ) neither is google and facebook ) but I also know that my fastest speeds in an ironman i rode when I was lapping people on the bike course in earlier days.

also whith adapting I talk about the irony that we want tt triathlon and no outside assitance and then use power meter which are outside assistance too. i mean its a bit hypocritical wanting it all back in the old days but use power meter and spend 8000 euro on bikes which many cant afford.

what I like is one thing. i want ti to put less focus on nudity and crossing a white line and focus more on drafting and race organicer ( lead by ti how to make drafting less likely ) what we get is different ( and yes we are as much to blame as race organicer and TI ) At this stage everybody feels they dodnt get a fair race
But we want this since 2006 and this is why i say people have to adapt to reality and control what they can control ie swim faster to be not in a pack , enter smaller races.

I would love the TT triathlon but I also love the fact that in the top races you suddetnly have 20 people that can swim a bit and it all becomes strategic where you have to look for gaps make sure you are in the right bunch ( a bit like cycle races and ) both have aspects i love .
and when i enter a small race i do get a tt and love it and when i enter a big race I know it will be a bit more strategic and I love it too.








groups

Podge83 wrote: »

Isn't the bike leg of a triathlon supposed to be akin to an individual time trial - TI rules on drafting differ from a standalone TT, but the race objectives are basically the same. TI and the race organizer should be trying to set up conditions where racing a TT is made possible.

As is, the race in no way resembles an individual time trial. Agreed that we must race in the conditions presented - The swim is as it should be - expect a few bumps etc - it goes with the territory, but as the cycle is basically a time trial, some attempt should be made to set it up as so.

Between 1) cars trying to get past you, 2) you getting past tractors, 3) trying to get past vans/ trucks slowing for other cyclists, 4) herds of cattle, 5) oncoming traffic (including oncoming frustrated cyclists ), 6) using energy trying not to draft and 7) constantly overtaking/ being overtaken by other cyclists, it's hardly the "race of truth" of Man or Woman against the road and the elements that it's meant to be. We know its not the 90's but surely the point of the race is to compete against the clock. In this century surely it should still be attempted to present the race as so.

I'm not having a go at any other posters here for their opinions - what people think including a great cross section of abilities from the top to the bottom of the field is great to read.

However, it's no wonder drafting happens so much - stop giving out about it and letting it bother you as it's here to stay - because that is what adapting to the race conditions set up by TI means!!

It things continue as they are, TT bikes will be banned and it'll be back to road bikes with drafting becoming an antiquated rule where the unwritten procedure will be to let it happen.

Fazz

peter kern wrote: »

did i get as much benefit being in a group of 3 and for where over the whole race I passed each off them 4 times or so than the guy that comes out 50th and gets 45 times a slip stream pasing guys i dont think so. I am certainly not snow white as huff and puff says

You probably got a lot more benefit in your group of 3 passing a few times yes Peter.

Why?

- because you don't drop out of the draft zone within the required 5secs (ref snow white)
- because your idea of a pace line is not 10 metres (ref snow white)
- because you did not encounter slower riders on your route and keep slowing and shouting on your right aka move over...
- because if you did get passed, and drop out of draft within 5secs, and then realise the overtaker is slower cause they were in your draft, and you've to put in an effort 50w above race pace to repass and try drop wheel suckers thus making it more surgy and hard.

Trust me, coming out of the water with 50+ ahead does not give you a load of slip streaming!
It gives you traffic, slowing, surging, shouting, and wheel suckers. And more traffic.
Ultimately, a slower bike split.


You are absolutely right about one thing though, the solution is to swim faster and/or bike like Kienle.


The sport has rules though, just a shame these are not adhered and/or enforced enough such as kilkee.

Maybe it's all naive, it seems to happen at the pro level and all distances so I personally see the solution is to become strong enough in all disciplines so much that it doesn't affect your race.

Be nice if the top 10 of champs races were honest racers or at least draft marshalled enough to ensure honest results.

shotgunmcos

+1 on all the good vibes for H&P. Stand up guy and bloody good triathlete.

Healthy enough debate but same ole drafting @Kilkee stuff

I know the course inside out from training, racing and marshalling on it. Most eye opening marshalling experience was at the foot of the last climb in 2011 when top guys tucked behind each other and pelotons battled into the stiff headwind ahead of the slog.

No drafting, hmmm 1,000 athletes in a nice 12km long orderly train.. eh

Its a tough enough course with no hiding from the wind and while there is no excuse for the top 20 guys n'gals, it is just plain unavoidable further down where the masses leave T1 together. How do you break up a group of 20 and have them all disperse into a nice train into a headwind? It is just not possible with the race in its current format.

As many have suggested and I agree, a separate wave for the top 30 (they get to choose the championship race or an AG wave) . Let them off and set a couple of motorbikes patrolling them handing out 4min penalties for a second draft warning or a 2 minute box. Then the <20 +20-29 wave, 30-39, 40+ waves all off 15-20 mins apart with a motorbike per wave to sort out the AG battles. There will be drafting in the pack and that's just not going to change.

Logistically a longer day for the club but then you could also start an hour earlier. I'm sure the top guns wouldn't care what time they were off if they had a relatively clean swim start

Good to hear LTC are still running this like a machine, such a good event. A HIM would be cool for a change next year as a once off, 2 laps of the bay with a little sandy run and dive in the middle, 2 laps of the bike and an extended out and back scenic run