Kilkee 2014

tunney

kchsligo wrote: »

Well done on looking up words but I'm sure you'd have some comment to make if I had used the word competitor!!!

No not really.

Its a niche sport, no one cares.

kchsligo

tunney wrote: »

Its a niche sport, no one cares.

Yeah true about the niche but there were sections on other niche sports. Just expected to see something with it being the National Championship and everything.

bryangiggsy

Regarding the swim....the course looked the exact same as last year which they had pulled in because of the rough seas....why not have buoys 2 and 3 fifty metres further out? or buoy no 2. 100 metres further out if 3 was too close to the rocks?
Has to be said..what a cracking swim it was though with the water being so calm and clear!!!

EC1000

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Regarding the swim....the course looked the exact same as last year which they had pulled in because of the rough seas....why not have buoys 2 and 3 fifty metres further out? or buoy no 2. 100 metres further out if 3 was too close to the rocks?
Has to be said..what a cracking swim it was though with the water being so calm and clear!!!

What was the purpose of the first and last buoys? If you followed them you would have been sent off course......

peter kern

As somebday said after the swim session this morning it was a fantastically well organised race by the limerik tri club and is still the gold standard of Irish races.

I got my money worth by getting a 30 min massage after the race
and after 8 slices of that cake I can confirm that cake was good
and so was the food at the prize giving ( i tripple tested that one too)

of course something gives if 1100 people race with 8 draft marshalls.
if they cant really officiate a soccer game where 22 players have 3 referees.

At the same time the male nat champ is a worthy winner wining the race from the start is just class.

tunney

kchsligo wrote: »

Yeah true about the niche but there were sections on other niche sports. Just expected to see something with it being the National Championship and everything.

Ah bless.
Bet you think the national series is great too.

Podge83

National Sprint Championship in Camlough made the RTE News - Probably only because very little else happen that day. Its like Tunney says - no-one cares!! (except for those taking part).

The only Triathlon the general public care about is the one every 4 years in the Olympics. And then only if someone has a chance of a medal.

The Farmer leading his herd of cattle across the road during the Cycle stopping several certainly didn't care!! The Cattle upset my rhythm just as I was settling in behind a big lad giving me great shelter.

bryangiggsy

EC1000 wrote: »

What was the purpose of the first and last buoys? If you followed them you would have been sent off course......

You only have to keep those buoys on your left....you dont have to go to them ...idea being they want to keep people away from the rocks on the right and on way back in the reeds on the right...the shortest way around is staying as right as you can heading for buoy no 2 and the beach on return leg

gickna1

Was a cracking day and a cracking race, couldn't believe the amount of drafting though, passed at least 3 trains, only seen one lad get pulled aside for it. Plenty of Marshalls but not enough done, especially in a National Championship.

EC1000

bryangiggsy wrote: »

You only have to keep those buoys on your left....you dont have to go to them ...idea being they want to keep people away from the rocks on the right and on way back in the reeds on the right...the shortest way around is staying as right as you can heading for buoy no 2 and the beach on return leg

Yes, I got all that but surely if that was the issue they would have set them up so that you kept the 1st and last buoys on your right and the others on your left. This way you would have avoided the hazards. As you say the idea is to keep you away from the rocks on the right. How does keeping a buoy on your LEFT help this in any way? Not a problem for me anyway... I was happy enough the get tangled in the reeds on the way back and shorten the swim a bit Cracking course

mossym

EC1000 wrote: »

I was happy enough the get tangled in the reeds on the way back and shorten the swim a bit Cracking course

Yeah i took the same agricultural short cut as well. didn't mind, reminded me of my scuba diving days in the kelp forests in california. long as you didn't panic and stayed high in the water you slid right over the top:)

HI2002

First, major thanks to Limerick Tri for a FANTASTIC event. This club really puts their back into this very fine event. This was my 11th HOTW. I thought the drafting in 2013 was bad, but alas, the drafting on Saturday was abysmal. large groups, small groups, pairs, making no effort to drop back. I had a group pass me ... it was like bees around the queen .. one female in the middle completely surrounded by guys .. it looked like a club cycle. This was well past the turn around point, i'd say it was the faster of the 2nd wave catching up with the rear of the 1st wave .. one of these athletes actually gave me the finger when I shouted at them .. the rules apply to all not some .. I had to drop back to get away from the group .. it make racing unfair, and very unpleasant. I did get some numbers. There was one (1) motorbike marshall on the road back into Kilkee - regretfully .. it is not enough - it has to be policed all the time. These people don't care that they are cheating and spoiling our sport, which makes me believe they haven't been doing it very long and are not especially good at it either .. (they know the rules, they just don't care). Go away, take up another sport that allows you to draft. I said this last year and I'll say again, this should not be up to just the marshalls - its up to us, the athletes to stop this happening. The other little beaut is overtaking on double white lines. On the way out, a group of three in staggered formatting passed me. The 3rd person in this lovely formation was out on the far side of the road .. well over the DOUBLE WHITE CONTINUOUS LINE .. again, I got his number and shouted out at him - and got given a look - as he stayed out on the far side of the road drafting away .. the number, and I've subsequently found out that this man has been doing triathlon for quite a long time - therefore well knows the rules, not to mention dangerous cycling. And finally, at the last junction sharp turn to the right before heading back to Kilkee - in front of several road marshalls, overtaking on the inside .. just dangerous cycling. I don't know the answer other than to reduce the numbers within the events .. or as someone else here has suggested - start mass DQ's .. that would make a difference. It is not fair that the rules only apply to some of us who care about our sport. Get these people out of our sport!

Wackoy2k

A great weekend overall in Kilkee this year, but have to admit that the drafting was ridiculous.

I had a group of about 10-12 riders pass me out only to have to pass them all out again a few minutes later when they came upon a hill. Majority had the same club jersey on.

But aside from the drafting. I purchased a new wetsuit a month ago (Rocket Science "Rocket" with the Carbon Drive fins on the Forearm).

I was told that the suit was banned from the race and we would be disqualified if I wore it even with the little fins cut off.

I went off and bought another wetsuit (Rocket Science Elite - Wife was not impressed seeing another wetsuit arrive).

But on the day I counted 7 in Wave 1 and even more in Wave 2.

My question is: Are they banned or not and how did so many people get away with using them if they are banned?

catweazle

Wackoy2k wrote: »

My question is: Are they banned or not and how did so many people get away with using them if they are banned?

They are banned as far as I am aware but it would need to be one punctilious official that would pull you up on it. Don't put it up around your shoulders until its the march of the penguins heading to the swim and doubtful whether anyone would notice it

(watch the bare torso in transition though)

In fairness the TI guy in The Quiet Man did this rule right with a few friendly reminders to anyone in transition before the race

miller82

catweazle wrote: »

They are banned as far as I am aware but it would need to be one punctilious official that would pull you up on it. Don't put it up around your shoulders until its the march of the penguins heading to the swim and doubtful whether anyone would notice it

(watch the bare torso in transition though)

In fairness the TI guy in The Quiet Man did this rule right with a few friendly reminders to anyone in transition before the race

if its banned i'm not sure it should be encouraged to be done on the sly. I cant think of another example of where this attitude is a problem, but i'm sure there is one

sconhome

Wackoy2k wrote: »

A great weekend overall in Kilkee this year, but have to admit that the drafting was ridiculous.

I had a group of about 10-12 riders pass me out only to have to pass them all out again a few minutes later when they came upon a hill. Majority had the same club jersey on.

But aside from the drafting. I purchased a new wetsuit a month ago (Rocket Science "Rocket" with the Carbon Drive fins on the Forearm).

I was told that the suit was banned from the race and we would be disqualified if I wore it even with the little fins cut off.

I went off and bought another wetsuit (Rocket Science Elite - Wife was not impressed seeing another wetsuit arrive).

But on the day I counted 7 in Wave 1 and even more in Wave 2.

My question is: Are they banned or not and how did so many people get away with using them if they are banned?

Yes they are banned. Can I ask how you came to buy it? If from a shop, they would be well aware that they are illegal for triathlon swimming.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80247268

catweazle wrote: »

They are banned as far as I am aware but it would need to be one punctilious official that would pull you up on it. Don't put it up around your shoulders until its the march of the penguins heading to the swim and doubtful whether anyone would notice it

(watch the bare torso in transition though)

In fairness the TI guy in The Quiet Man did this rule right with a few friendly reminders to anyone in transition before the race

I'm so disappointed, I expected better from you. :rolleyes:

miller82 wrote: »

if its banned i'm not sure it should be encouraged to be done on the sly. I cant think of another example of where this attitude is a problem, but i'm sure there is one

There in lies the issue, people bending the rules to suit them and we having 14 page bitchfests afterwards.

Wackoy2k

Bought it off an Irish site and said that it met all ITU regulations.

What is worrying me now is that I am doing an Ironman in Mallorca this September and not sure if they are allowed at that distance.

I guess I will be getting rid of it and using the second suit I went off and bought.

What wrecked my head was the number of people using them last weekend.

Even looking at the pictures on Flickr, you can see a lot of them while people were standing around in transition. The red vortex patches blatantly obvious.

tunney

I'm sure that TI promptly get on top of this

Five days and then I will be fvckless on this issue.

catweazle

Alas I don't practice what I preach and I purchase a heavily discounted wetsuit in the depths of winter when I am 2 stone over what I should be. Perhaps if I moved to the Southern hemisphere it would have been a good deal

Oldtrier

Huff n Puff wrote: »

They better not. Age group wave start races are awful. You have listed two races that I would never do. No need to drag down Ireland's best race too. Plenty of drafting goes on at those other two races anyway.

Lining up at the swim start with the rest of Ireland's best is what its all about. 30 years of this race being brilliant, about to be spoiled by some eejits down the back of the field drafting for 100th place. Highly annoying.

Let the best 50 men and women off together in Kilkee to battle it out each year for the National Championships and the rest of ye can do whatever the hell ye want!!

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

tunney

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

Thanks I needed a good laugh.

mossym

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

i reckon if you knew who Huff n puff is you;d change your tune, the guy is instrumental in keeping a local tri club going, and from what i've seen & heard does a lot more than most in ireland to get people involved in both tri and cycling.

and like it or not there are two races going on, those in it to win and those in it who know they won't but want to do their best. do you want to tell Trevor woods, matt molly they don't get to go head to head with the fastest and have to start 4 waves later because of age group ranking? these guys finished in the top 10.

national champs should be about letting the best duke it out. you do that by putting them on a start line and letting them duke it out.

elite wave works at races all over the world, no reason it can't work here

zico10

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

I don't think he finds what goes on down the back annoying at all, in fact he said when it came to the Nation Championships he couldn't care less. Huff n Puff is not an elite either, nobody racing on Saturday was. Every single person was an Age grouper and being brutally honest, barring some physical impediment, somebody way down the field couldn't possibly be training as hard as Huff n Puff or others like him.

I don't know him very well, but he founded and runs a great tri club in Nenagh. Others here would know far more about this than me, but all levels are catered for in the club. I'm sure he's aware that drafting is very likely to occur at the front of the field as well, just he's looks at where he could have performed better in the race instead of accusing those who finished ahead of him of drafting.

You should probably take a read of this, probably the best post I've ever read in this forum. He finished 2nd in HOTW that year behind a proper elite athlete, who just so happened to receive a penalty for drafting. Many on here and in the Irish tri community thought the penalty was way too lenient and Huff n Puff was robbed of 1st place. He was the only person on here that defended the winner and in the most gracious and magnanimous way said he wouldn't want to win under such circumstances.
Your post on the other hand...

Oldtrier

A bit of a misunderstanding about my post probably because I didn't make it clear. I don't know Huff n Puff, I accept what people are saying about him.. I have no problem with all the "elites"/best athletes all going together, I wouldn't like to see it any other way. My main objection was to the tone that implied that everyone outside the top 50 were eejits. I certainly took it that the National Championships were for this top 50 and the rest could bugger off somewhere else? While those of us further back are not at the pointy end of the race it still is galling if you are trying to avoid drafting, difficult and all as that is on a crowded course, when a large group passes all working together with no regard for the race rules.

Huff n Puff

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant. I thought that Kilkee was one of the best races I have ever done but from all reports there was significant drafting at the front as well as back down with the "eejits". If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying? While there was some seriously bad drafting towards the back with groups of up to 30, from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating. One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

Oh Lord, I know I shouldn't respond but............

Two seconds of investigation would probably lead you to my name = Shane Scully. If you really feel like getting offended then take a read of my blog www.shanescully.com. You will love it. Should give you plenty of ammunition. Care to give me your name so I know who I am talking to?

Oldtrier wrote: »

Who ever Huff n Puff is, is so arrogant

Am I arrogant? I don't think so. I would like to think that most people who know me would say the exact opposite. I am forever putting myself down on my blog or any report I write. I know exactly where I stand in terms of triathlon ability, where others are absolutely delusional. When I compare myself to triathletes I compare myself to the top, elite guys and I am miles behind and so is almost everybody else in Ireland. People seem to take offense to that for some reason.

Oldtrier wrote: »

as well as back down with the "eejits".

There is no tone. You are taking the eejits word out of context - I am referring to the eejits down the back THAT DRAFT in pelotons which is now possibly going to result in a change of format for Kilkee next year.

Any drafting in the top 15 men was very light in comparision to the pelotons seen down the back. You don't tend to see the top men jumping directly behind wheels for miles and doing up and overs. It can be a hard drafting call to make for motor bike marshals.

Oldtrier wrote: »

If H n P is so good as to be at the front why does he/she find what goes on down at the back annoying?

I don't find what goes on at the back annoying because at the moment it has no adverse effect on me. The day a peloton catches me on the bike is the day I start ranting and raving. The only reason I might find what goes on back there annoying is if those pelotons resulted in a change of format for Kilkee next year - as I said I don't like age group starts as it just doesn't feel like a proper race to me.

Oldtrier wrote: »

from reports some of what went on at the front was systematic and calculated cheating.

I don't doubt that there was some low level cheating going on from the top men. But I also don't think it was enough to make any big difference in the race finish.

Oldtrier wrote: »

One of the appeals of tri is that it caters for all levels and H n P may not believe it some of the AGs train as hard as some elites but the A part of AG has a way of catching up. So H n P take your head out of your A, tri is not just for the first 50!

I have been in the sport since the 90's so I have a good idea what it's all about and how things have changed over the years - some good, some bad.

As a coach of a triathlon team for 8 years. Working close to 15 hours of coaching a week for free (see my blog post on volunteering in the sport). I am fully aware of the hours each type of triathlete puts into the sport.

I formed a triathlon club and a cycling club and a junior cycling club and coach each. I organise close to 40 races each year and you would be hard pressed to find better value races out there (shameless plug!). In fact I am just after coming home from time keeping at the latest round of our 5km Run Series where we have all sorts of abilities (€2 entry - and all money given back in fun prizes). Tomorrow I will organise our Nenagh Summer League Bike race.

I don't believe tri is just for the first 50 and never have. I had 35 team mates of massively different abilities on the start line on Saturday. Heading down to Kilkee with friends is a huge part of what makes it special. Why would I not want them to compete with me?

I am not saying they should feck off somewhere else. Leave Kilkee as it is and sort the drafting or if you have to change it to age groups waves make sure you put in an elite wave. What's controversial or arrogant about that? It might sound a little elitist but, like it or not, thats what the top level of sport is.

I think you just took me up wrong. No harm done if you did.

Oldtrier

Hand up, I took you up completely wrong from reading your post I took it that you were only concerned with what went on in the top 50 and the rest down the field were eejits, apologies for the misinterpretation. As I said in my own post I thought that the race was one of the best I have ever raced but was to some extent spoiled by some mass drafting further down. One very large group (I estimate 30+) passed me towards the end and when shouted at them I and others got the usual unprintable reply, plus we met a draft marshal up the road who seemed to try to split them but as far as I could see issued no yellow cards. Those of us trying to stay legal lost time backing off to avoid becoming part of the peloton. Again apologies for the "arrogant" as I read from your post that those of us outside the top 50 could go do something else. I never disagreed with the notion that those good enough to race for overall positions should do so from the first wave regardless of age. Don't particularly want to put up my name, you know me and I will make myself known to you at the next race.

Huff n Puff

Oldtrier wrote: »

Hand up, I took you up completely wrong from reading your post I took it that you were only concerned with what went on in the top 50 and the rest down the field were eejits, apologies for the misinterpretation. As I said in my own post I thought that the race was one of the best I have ever raced but was to some extent spoiled by some mass drafting further down. One very large group (I estimate 30+) passed me towards the end and when shouted at them I and others got the usual unprintable reply, plus we met a draft marshal up the road who seemed to try to split them but as far as I could see issued no yellow cards. Those of us trying to stay legal lost time backing off to avoid becoming part of the peloton. Again apologies for the "arrogant" as I read from your post that those of us outside the top 50 could go do something else. I never disagreed with the notion that those good enough to race for overall positions should do so from the first wave regardless of age. Don't particularly want to put up my name, you know me and I will make myself known to you at the next race.

I wouldn't worry about it. I am sure I could have phrased things better in my original post.

Fair play to you for backing off when the packs came. I would like to think I would do the same but I fear if I was back there I would choose the pack. I don't really blame the competitors as much as others. The lines of people on the course just seemed so long. In my head I would think that if I started backing off once I would be in a never ending draft zone going backwards.

The abuse organisers get from people that are pinged for drafting penalties can be a bit OTT as well. Everyone swears innocence. Giving warnings can be enticing instead of having to deal with the fall out from penalties.

nudgertango

Podge83 wrote: »

National Sprint Championship in Camlough made the RTE News - Probably only because very little else happen that day. Its like Tunney says - no-one cares!! (except for those taking part).

The only Triathlon the general public care about is the one every 4 years in the Olympics. And then only if someone has a chance of a medal.

The Farmer leading his herd of cattle across the road during the Cycle stopping several certainly didn't care!! The Cattle upset my rhythm just as I was settling in behind a big lad giving me great shelter.

Did anyone else see the herd of cattle PODGE83 mentioned?

redved

Yup, came across them just before the road back to Doonbeg.
Had to stop and unclip. Not much you can do about it, I was glad of the break

Doeshedare

I encountered the cattle, who were clearly drafting and judging by their blk and white suits were all in the same club too but then they werent the only shower of inconsiderates I saw. When we, I mean I, came upon them they blocked half the road, a truck came the other way and stopped creating a moving chicane to get around and the driver, who knew the farmer, opened the cab door onto the on coming bikes just to make it more exciting. Other obstacles included a green van going up the last hill which I think was held up by a couple of slow cyclists but created a bit of mayhem as faster bikes gathered behind it to overtake and an earlier ancient tractor which swung on to the road with no appreciation of what was already on it

On the whole drafting thing - I am a mediocre cyclist on a regular road bike. I did not consciously draft on Saturday but nor did I conscientiously drop back every time someone crawled by me either and by the second half of the ride I seemed to be with the same 4 bikes. I agree with Huff an Puff - to avoid drafting, because the line was so long, logically I would have had to stop, let everyone by and start again.

I also agree with him that because it was the NC a wave of the top 100 (or whatever) going off first chasing line honours and being heavily marshalled makes sense. That means some top AG finishers from the various eejits waves will likely have cheated. I think most of my fellow eejits are competing against themselves (and I hammered my last year self by more than 20 mins thanks for asking) and I like to think the universe is karmic and the cheats will get found out for the ar*eholes they are.

I can see that cutting the numbers would reduce drafting but since I would likely be cut I am not for it - I mean the joy of Kilkee is in part the scale of the race v the size of the town and mingling with all the eejits after. I hope the sport continues to make room for Oldtriers as well as Huff and Puffers.

Lastly and most importantly thanks and fair play to LTC again for a great day.