Kilkee 2014

peter kern

i think the good thing is after this weekend i guess the very last person has understood you need to have a seperate female and male start.

If only this comes out of this its a good thing

at the same time a few people need to move on to reality as we are not in the 90s anymore witn 25 people racing.

ther cant have been a single person that did not know what would be happen if it botheres you so much dont enter the race
or swim fast enough ( i said it again ;-) or do duathlon ;-)
if you enter adapt to the race conditons set up by TI

miller82

peter kern wrote: »

if you enter adapt to the race conditons set up by TI

as in...... get your drafting race face on ?

kingQuez

I love Kilkee, its a great course (especially when the weather is angry), brilliant buzz, and excellently organised race every year. But after this year I'm probably not going to enter again. I hadn't seen such deliberate drafting in a race before. It's a bit soul destroying to avoid drafting when you're a weak cyclist, while large peletons go past you and land fresh for the run with no penalties.

Podge83

Isn't the bike leg of a triathlon supposed to be akin to an individual time trial - TI rules on drafting differ from a standalone TT, but the race objectives are basically the same. TI and the race organizer should be trying to set up conditions where racing a TT is made possible.

As is, the race in no way resembles an individual time trial. Agreed that we must race in the conditions presented - The swim is as it should be - expect a few bumps etc - it goes with the territory, but as the cycle is basically a time trial, some attempt should be made to set it up as so.

Between 1) cars trying to get past you, 2) you getting past tractors, 3) trying to get past vans/ trucks slowing for other cyclists, 4) herds of cattle, 5) oncoming traffic (including oncoming frustrated cyclists ), 6) using energy trying not to draft and 7) constantly overtaking/ being overtaken by other cyclists, it's hardly the "race of truth" of Man or Woman against the road and the elements that it's meant to be. We know its not the 90's but surely the point of the race is to compete against the clock. In this century surely it should still be attempted to present the race as so.

I'm not having a go at any other posters here for their opinions - what people think including a great cross section of abilities from the top to the bottom of the field is great to read.

However, it's no wonder drafting happens so much - stop giving out about it and letting it bother you as it's here to stay - because that is what adapting to the race conditions set up by TI means!!

It things continue as they are, TT bikes will be banned and it'll be back to road bikes with drafting becoming an antiquated rule where the unwritten procedure will be to let it happen.

RacoonQueen

Kilkee had separate male and female waves last year (O40's and relays in with the women) and there was still drafting...numbers were much lower last year though so obviously not as evident as this year.

lizanne83

@ Huff n Puff I've just visited your blog. Utter class. Thanks for sharing! Bookmarked

I really enjoyed Kilkee, what a difference compared to last year. 16 mins off my time from last year.

Loved the swim and bike until my big toe-nail was yanked up when pulling foot out of cleat on bike return. Started a bloody mess.

Adrenaline kept me going and ran out of T2 with the pain nearly intolerable. Started running funny to compensate / protect my toe from loosening further resulted in deepening blisters (vaseline made no difference!) Was aiming for 4th /5th in category, alas had to settle for 6th.

Ran over the line with the top of my runner covered in blood!! Only when I got to ambulance I realised it was loosened from the nail bed and v-sore. Nail got fully pulled from nail bed yesterday (local anaesthetic!) which is making Lansborough sprint next wknd look unlikely So raw & sore! Rant over. Loved Kilkee just disappointed with run & unable to sprint (don't care that I lost the toe nail!)

Huff n Puff

lizanne83 wrote: »

@ Huff n Puff I've just visited your blog. Utter class. Thanks for sharing! Bookmarked

I really enjoyed Kilkee, what a difference compared to last year. 16 mins off my time from last year.

Glad to be of service. Well done on your improvement!

peter kern

there is a huge difference between drafting and adapting to the real world Sir. But a field of 27 and 1100 will have a different race dynamic, you can see it in hawaii that if you are not in the first pack in the swim it will be very hard for you to get a top 10 result. ( so dodnt complain if you enter and cant cycle like sebastian kienle)


Also like it or not but it was clear before the race what would happen on race day so people made an informed decison entering the race.

did i get as much benefit being in a group of 3 and for where over the whole race I passed each off them 4 times or so than the guy that comes out 50th and gets 45 times a slip stream pasing guys i dont think so. I am certainly not snow white as huff and puff says (ps huff and puff fazz is using outisde assitance though ;- ) neither is google and facebook ) but I also know that my fastest speeds in an ironman i rode when I was lapping people on the bike course in earlier days.

also whith adapting I talk about the irony that we want tt triathlon and no outside assitance and then use power meter which are outside assistance too. i mean its a bit hypocritical wanting it all back in the old days but use power meter and spend 8000 euro on bikes which many cant afford.

what I like is one thing. i want ti to put less focus on nudity and crossing a white line and focus more on drafting and race organicer ( lead by ti how to make drafting less likely ) what we get is different ( and yes we are as much to blame as race organicer and TI ) At this stage everybody feels they dodnt get a fair race
But we want this since 2006 and this is why i say people have to adapt to reality and control what they can control ie swim faster to be not in a pack , enter smaller races.

I would love the TT triathlon but I also love the fact that in the top races you suddetnly have 20 people that can swim a bit and it all becomes strategic where you have to look for gaps make sure you are in the right bunch ( a bit like cycle races and ) both have aspects i love .
and when i enter a small race i do get a tt and love it and when i enter a big race I know it will be a bit more strategic and I love it too.








groups

Podge83 wrote: »

Isn't the bike leg of a triathlon supposed to be akin to an individual time trial - TI rules on drafting differ from a standalone TT, but the race objectives are basically the same. TI and the race organizer should be trying to set up conditions where racing a TT is made possible.

As is, the race in no way resembles an individual time trial. Agreed that we must race in the conditions presented - The swim is as it should be - expect a few bumps etc - it goes with the territory, but as the cycle is basically a time trial, some attempt should be made to set it up as so.

Between 1) cars trying to get past you, 2) you getting past tractors, 3) trying to get past vans/ trucks slowing for other cyclists, 4) herds of cattle, 5) oncoming traffic (including oncoming frustrated cyclists ), 6) using energy trying not to draft and 7) constantly overtaking/ being overtaken by other cyclists, it's hardly the "race of truth" of Man or Woman against the road and the elements that it's meant to be. We know its not the 90's but surely the point of the race is to compete against the clock. In this century surely it should still be attempted to present the race as so.

I'm not having a go at any other posters here for their opinions - what people think including a great cross section of abilities from the top to the bottom of the field is great to read.

However, it's no wonder drafting happens so much - stop giving out about it and letting it bother you as it's here to stay - because that is what adapting to the race conditions set up by TI means!!

It things continue as they are, TT bikes will be banned and it'll be back to road bikes with drafting becoming an antiquated rule where the unwritten procedure will be to let it happen.

Fazz

peter kern wrote: »

did i get as much benefit being in a group of 3 and for where over the whole race I passed each off them 4 times or so than the guy that comes out 50th and gets 45 times a slip stream pasing guys i dont think so. I am certainly not snow white as huff and puff says

You probably got a lot more benefit in your group of 3 passing a few times yes Peter.

Why?

- because you don't drop out of the draft zone within the required 5secs (ref snow white)
- because your idea of a pace line is not 10 metres (ref snow white)
- because you did not encounter slower riders on your route and keep slowing and shouting on your right aka move over...
- because if you did get passed, and drop out of draft within 5secs, and then realise the overtaker is slower cause they were in your draft, and you've to put in an effort 50w above race pace to repass and try drop wheel suckers thus making it more surgy and hard.

Trust me, coming out of the water with 50+ ahead does not give you a load of slip streaming!
It gives you traffic, slowing, surging, shouting, and wheel suckers. And more traffic.
Ultimately, a slower bike split.


You are absolutely right about one thing though, the solution is to swim faster and/or bike like Kienle.


The sport has rules though, just a shame these are not adhered and/or enforced enough such as kilkee.

Maybe it's all naive, it seems to happen at the pro level and all distances so I personally see the solution is to become strong enough in all disciplines so much that it doesn't affect your race.

Be nice if the top 10 of champs races were honest racers or at least draft marshalled enough to ensure honest results.

shotgunmcos

+1 on all the good vibes for H&P. Stand up guy and bloody good triathlete.

Healthy enough debate but same ole drafting @Kilkee stuff

I know the course inside out from training, racing and marshalling on it. Most eye opening marshalling experience was at the foot of the last climb in 2011 when top guys tucked behind each other and pelotons battled into the stiff headwind ahead of the slog.

No drafting, hmmm 1,000 athletes in a nice 12km long orderly train.. eh

Its a tough enough course with no hiding from the wind and while there is no excuse for the top 20 guys n'gals, it is just plain unavoidable further down where the masses leave T1 together. How do you break up a group of 20 and have them all disperse into a nice train into a headwind? It is just not possible with the race in its current format.

As many have suggested and I agree, a separate wave for the top 30 (they get to choose the championship race or an AG wave) . Let them off and set a couple of motorbikes patrolling them handing out 4min penalties for a second draft warning or a 2 minute box. Then the <20 +20-29 wave, 30-39, 40+ waves all off 15-20 mins apart with a motorbike per wave to sort out the AG battles. There will be drafting in the pack and that's just not going to change.

Logistically a longer day for the club but then you could also start an hour earlier. I'm sure the top guns wouldn't care what time they were off if they had a relatively clean swim start

Good to hear LTC are still running this like a machine, such a good event. A HIM would be cool for a change next year as a once off, 2 laps of the bay with a little sandy run and dive in the middle, 2 laps of the bike and an extended out and back scenic run