Views on new Templecarrig admission policy

recedite

Well then your child has an entitlement to her place in the school.
The school was built by the state for the purpose of providing secondary education for local kids, regardless of their religion.
Those were the terms under which the CoI applied to manage the school.
If the BOM of the school has introduced a different policy since then, which gives priority to a child who is not attending one of those local feeder schools, then they are in breach of the contract with Dept. of Education.

pixbyjohn

The 57 children already on the list may all be locals too.;)

2011

pixbyjohn wrote: »

The 57 children already on the list may all be locals too.;)

They well be.
However in my case my daughter was accepted to 3 local schools. This meant that once we selected a school we freed up a space in two other schools. No doubt this applies to many others.

recedite

pixbyjohn wrote: »

The 57 children already on the list may all be locals too.;)

If that was the case, the school could be permitted to select within this cohort, on the basis of religion, under current legislation, in order to "preserve the ethos of the school". But recent advice from the AG to the Minister of Education indicates that this can only kick in when the "non-ethos" quota of kids reaches 49%.

Either way, the kids in Cat 1 of the admission policy (the designated local feeder schools) must have priority over people from outside the area, such as Newcastle and Enniskerry regardless of religion. There is a perfectly good CoI school in Wicklow town which is well placed to accept kids from the CoI primary school in Newcastle.

The TC BOM has inserted a new Cat 0 above the first category purporting to give priority to "active" CoI families outside the local area, over the Cat1 kids attending local feeder schools. As soon as they try to implement it, they are open to challenge.

The question is, if some local kid is bumped off the list, how are the parents going to know whether the place has been allocated to one of these Cat 0 applicants from outside the area? I don't know.
Try asking the school maybe, but I doubt they would be very co-operative.

loyatemu

the number of CoI kids in TCG is relatively small, the school is just oversubscribed. The sibling policy is likely to be a bigger issue for anyone applying who doesn't already have kids in the school - I believe nearly half of the places for 2017 were held for siblings.

Some of the kids offered places won't take them but the siblings all will, can't see 57 places becoming available - have you applied for St. Davids or CCA in Kilcoole?

recedite

It doesn't make sense for siblings to attend different schools IMO.
If the older sibling had attended one of the designated feeder schools, then in all likelihood the younger one would too. So the younger would be expected to be Cat. 1, first priority in their own right anyway.
But I doubt that all the demand for places is coming from within the Greystones/ Delgany area.
I'd also assume a lot of the names on the TC list are also on the St.Davids list, and CCA as well, so the oversubscription issue may not be as bad as it sounds.
Just a matter of some people getting their second preference.

loyatemu

I'm definitely not arguing against the sibling policy, and it's unlikely that it is going to be changed. But by the time the school has a full 6 years of students, siblings will probably make up most of the intake each year.

For whatever reason (facilities, subject choice, ethos, sports) David's is not an attractive option for many people, lots of kids are leaving the town each day to attend school (not just fee-paying schools) despite there being plenty of spare capacity in David's.

recedite

Well, the bottom line is, at some point somebody from one of the feeder schools is going to be refused a place.
And when that happens, TC better be able to show that every single child enrolled in the school for that year has come from one of the feeder schools.
Otherwise they will be in breach of terms under which they are allowed to manage the school.

abacus120

I have been told that there were kids accepted and not from the feeder schools,just so disappointing

Annasopra

loyatemu wrote: »

the number of CoI kids in TCG is relatively small, the school is just oversubscribed. The sibling policy is likely to be a bigger issue for anyone applying who doesn't already have kids in the school - I believe nearly half of the places for 2017 were held for siblings.

Some of the kids offered places won't take them but the siblings all will, can't see 57 places becoming available - have you applied for St. Davids or CCA in Kilcoole?

Huh? Why would 57 places have to become avalable. Only one needed.

loyatemu

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Huh? Why would 57 places have to become avalable. Only one needed.

because:

she is 58th on the list

if one place becomes available it'll be offered the first person on the list, and so on.

stilltryingit

Do we know how many children from each local school were offered a place for 2017 or would that information be released?

pixie_chick

You have to take into consideration that there are at least 4 feeder schools and if say 60%- 75% of the children (i know quite a few that have applied even though they have gotten into other schools) have applied from each school that would be approx 210-260 applications and if 50 were sibling then there's an over subscription of at least 100.
i would say that alot won't take up places as i do think some have applied without really wanting the place.
Wasnt there only about 10 places given to COI applicants?

recedite

pixie_chick wrote: »

Wasn't there only about 10 places given to COI applicants?

I presume you mean 10 places to CoI applicants from outside the designated feeder schools, because there would be a lot more than that applying as genuine locals. And the school was specifically built by the Dept. of Education to cater for the needs of a rapidly rising local population, regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof.

BTW there is a handy "canvasser calling card" available here in case political canvassers come calling to your door over the next few weeks.
I don't think any of the local politicians have ever shown any interest in the issue, so if you are interested in ending religious discrimination in the admission policies of public schools, then its up to you, the voter, to make your views known.

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

I presume you mean 10 places to CoI applicants from outside the designated feeder schools.

I don't think that is accurate.
See the website, section 7

http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/How%20does%20the%20Admissions%20Policy%20in%20Temple%20Carrig%20School%20operate.pdf

recedite

FirstIn wrote: »

See the website, section 7

What does not "to any significant extent" actually mean?
Could that be 10 out of 120? Where did the 10 figure come from, is it official in any way? Pixie-chick mentioned it, but presumably heard it somewhere.

All the % figures mentioned in that table add up to 100%, which means 100% of places were allocated to kids from the listed feeder schools in 2016 unless they are cooking the figures in the table. If 100% of places were local, then why write "to any significant extent" when the answer would be "no places were given to applicants from outside the area".

Section 5 indicates they are selecting from within the 7 feeder schools on the basis of religion. Which is against the spirit of the original tender, and contrary to the undertakings given by the CoI at public meetings at the time they were submitting their tender to become the patron. But it is not necessarily illegal under current legislation, due to a legal loophole that educationequality.ie are trying to get closed.

Section 3 says

The intake of students from the Greystones Delgany area into TCG (who are attending the 8 feeder national schools) is 120 each year. This number
is determined by the equivalent number enrolled by St Davids Secondary School each year. It is important that local need is equally met by both schools and that they are both fully subscribed each year

Who says it is important that local need is equally met by both schools?
One is bigger than the other. TCG was designed for up to around 1000 pupils, so if they limit intake to 720, they are only running it at around 72% capacity. Is it justifiable to turn people away under those circumstances?

recedite

If you take the 2016 intake figures given, then the two CoI primary schools supplied 29% of the 120 pupil intake. That is 35 pupils.
Due to the admission policies of those schools, the vast majority of those pupils would be protestant.
That also ties in with the "non-RC Christian" % in the school given further up the page in another table (including all years so far?), which is given as 25%.
So around 30 pupils (or 25%) per year, on average, were protestant.

Whats not altogether clear is whether the Cat 0 pupils from outside the area, which may or may not be getting places, "but not to any significant extent" are included in that table. Hopefully the table does include all of the annual intake.

But I really don't care how many were protestant, or belong to any other religion. As long as all are treated fairly, I'm happy.

FirstIn

@ Recedite, you have many questions. Many issues you need clarity on. Why don't you ask the school and let us know.

For what it's worth I've heard of many COI kids not getting in. Which to me is crazy when they're local kids.

Remember that in most of this country it's the non RC kids that are heavily disadvantaged when it comes to admissions to schools.

recedite

FirstIn wrote: »

For what it's worth I've heard of many COI kids not getting in. Which to me is crazy when they're local kids.

Given the section 5 in the document you linked to yourself a few posts back, that would not happen.

FirstIn wrote: »

Remember that in most of this country it's the non RC kids that are heavily disadvantaged when it comes to admissions to schools.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

FirstIn

recedite wrote: »

Given the section 5 in the document you linked to yourself a few posts back, that would not happen.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Here is section 5.
"5. TCG does provide a limited priority on admissions for pupils who are members of families that are actively involved in the local parish life of Delgany or Greystones Church of Ireland parishes. For 2016 Admissions this priority was afforded to just 7% of the students enrolled. The BOM believes that this priority is necessary and proportionate given the broad based admission policy for the school, the ethos of the school and the absence of alternative provision for such students within the local area"

So 7%, COI kids from Delgany or Greystones. So that makes 8-9 kids. That's it.

There are certainly COI local kids not getting in.
Which I believe is crazy. Just 17% of the entire school are COI.

recedite

All the CoI kids attending St. Patricks Nat. School and Delgany Nat. School have the top priority anyway, by virtue of attending 2 of the 7 designated local feeder primary schools. BTW I notice they are referring to 8 feeder schools in more recent documents, instead of 7, so that must be including the new portacabin school in the Rugby Club grounds, which is fair enough because it is in the area.

So that's 50-60 kids coming out every year from these two schools, who are mostly CoI, and all are in the top priority grouping if they want it.
Section 5 there means if they want to go on to TCG secondary school they can get priority over non-CoI kids attending the same primary school they were in (or in the other 6 feeder schools which were originally supposed to have equal priority).

TCG school don't explain why the 7% they refer to needed to avail of this special Section 5 priority. One possibility is they were not attending any of the local primary schools. Another possibility is that all the applicants from the feeder schools went into a lottery and some missed out. Then they looked at the religion of all those who missed out, and any who were CoI were bumped up using the Section 5. which would make it a "rigged" lottery. But we really don't know the answer to how they chose this 7%.

loyatemu

recedite wrote: »

TCG school don't explain why the 7% they refer to needed to avail of this special Section 5 priority. One possibility is they were not attending any of the local primary schools. Another possibility is that all the applicants from the feeder schools went into a lottery and some missed out. Then they looked at the religion of all those who missed out, and any who were CoI were bumped up using the Section 5. which would make it a "rigged" lottery. But we really don't know the answer to how they chose this 7%.

You have a show affiliation to the parish, in practical terms the rector has to sign your form. 7% is 8 or 9 kids per year, but they would all be from the feeder schools so in a lottery situation 75% of them would have gained entry anyway, so effectively it's 2 or 3 kids gaining entry who might not have otherwise.

recedite

loyatemu wrote: »

..but they would all be from the feeder schools

Except you don't know that, its an assumption.

...... so effectively it's 2 or 3 kids gaining entry who might not have otherwise.

As is that. You don't know who is using the Section 5 mechanism, or why. There is no no need for somebody to use it if they were legitimately going to get a place anyway.

loyatemu

It's highly unlikely any kids that are "actively involved in the local parish life of Delgany or Greystones Church of Ireland parishes" are going to schools outside of those parishes.

recedite

Maybe so. But Delgany is a large parish, extending from Red Lane on the Sugarloaf mountain down to Kilpedder and Kilcoole, so who knows?

You say 7% is 8-9 places, but then say "it's 2 or 3 kids gaining entry who might not have otherwise". Why do you think the other 6 are using this mechanism if they already got places through the normal means anyway?

I don't think the school would be recording them as having used the mechanism in that scenario; it would constitute "double accounting" to count the same people twice.

2011

loyatemu wrote: »

It's highly unlikely any kids that are "actively involved in the local parish life of Delgany or Greystones Church of Ireland parishes" are going to schools outside of those parishes.

It's not unlikely at all. I have relations that fall into that category. Thier "active involvement" in the parish will not guarantee them a place. This is despite the fact that they attend a feeder school and live in Greystones.

FirstIn

2011 wrote: »

It's not unlikely at all. I have relations that fall into that category. Thier "active involvement" in the parish will not guarantee them a place. This is despite the fact that they attend a feeder school and live in Greystones.

Are you not contradicting yourself ? Your relations are in the local parishes and also in the local feeder schools. Hence fit in with what loyatemu points out.

2011

FirstIn wrote: »

Are you not contradicting yourself ? Your relations are in the local parishes and also in the local feeder schools. Hence fit in with what loyatemu points out.

My bad, I misread the post

letape

I've only today found this thread. My eldest is in junior infants in one of the feeder schools. Back in the day I naively supported the current patrons as it was my understand there would be no religious preferences.

Looking forward 7 years I'd expect I've slim chance of getting in as the CoI contingent will only get bigger & bigger based on the current policy - as these CoI inbuilt preferences will have siblings that will get in the sibling category leaving the additional allocated spaces to more CoI kids & so on ...

http://www.templecarrigschool.ie/Admissions%20Policy%20and%20Guide%202017%20as%20adopted%20by%20BOM%20301115.pdf

Is there anything that can be done to change this as it should be a school for the community not a minority. I really think it was totally dishonest how they marketed themselves at the outset.

Kids from the feeder schools should have equal chance & this is certainly not going to be the case in years to come.

I don't see this covered in the local Facebook groups.

I wonder what the politicians views are?

TIA

recedite

letape wrote: »

I wonder what the politicians views are?

They had a vote in the Dail quite recently (December) to repeal the loophole in equality legislation that is often used to justify religious discrimination in the admissions policies of schools.
Link here. Click on "voting details per member".

None of our local TD's backed the bill. Simon Harris voted against equality. The others either abstained or couldn't be ar$ed showing up for the vote.

In fairness to Ferris and Doyle, there is a stupid tradition that members of parties currently in government do not actively support a bill proposed by the opposition, even if they agree with it in principle.

Donnelly's position is perhaps worse, considering it was his party colleagues who proposed the bill. But make of that what you will.

letape wrote: »

Is there anything that can be done to change this as it should be a school for the community not a minority. I really think it was totally dishonest how they marketed themselves at the outset.

IMO the dept. of Education should withdraw the privilege of patron/manager from the CoI and re-allocate the patronage to new management. They could do this on the basis that the terms of the original agreement have been violated.
However, that would require some political will and/or community pressure, both of which are sadly lacking, so far.