Oil boiler problems ? ?

JABKELL

Hi, I'm have problems with a Potterton Statesman 65/85 oil boiler.
The boiler is going into Lockout mode, when I try to start it after a few hours of non-use (can be as little as 2-3 hours).When I Push the restart button it seams the fuel-pump,motor and fan are not turning. I can get it restarted after about 15 minutes of fiddling with it.( bleeding the fuel- pump and lightly tapping the pump,motor and fan housing ).I removed the burner,removed the fuel-pump(which was turning freely)the motor seems to be turning freely as is the fan. I cleaned the fuel filter (no dirt inside really) and when re-installing half filled with Diptane fuel additive to see would it help only to find the boiler locked out again this morning. I have also tried another control module (the unit that the reset button is on) and I tried another electrical connector that goes onto the fuel pump.The fuel-pump was replaced 11 months ago.

Anyone any ideas on what to check next ?

Wearb

JABKELL wrote: »

Hi, I'm have problems with a Potterton Statesman 65/85 oil boiler.
The boiler is going into Lockout mode, when I try to start it after a few hours of non-use (can be as little as 2-3 hours).When I Push the restart button it seams the fuel-pump,motor and fan are not turning. I can get it restarted after about 15 minutes of fiddling with it.( bleeding the fuel- pump and lightly tapping the pump,motor and fan housing ).I removed the burner,removed the fuel-pump(which was turning freely)the motor seems to be turning freely as is the fan. I cleaned the fuel filter (no dirt inside really) and when re-installing half filled with Diptane fuel additive to see would it help only to find the boiler locked out again this morning. I have also tried another control module (the unit that the reset button is on) and I tried another electrical connector that goes onto the fuel pump.The fuel-pump was replaced 11 months ago.

Anyone any ideas on what to check next ?

Is the lockout button lighting up when it locks out? Do you get any sound at all when you press the button? If you leave it for half a day or so without fiddling with it, do you get any different results from pressing lockout? Do you know if you have power at the control box during lockout?

I am going to be offline for a while, but answering those questions may help somebody to help you. I will check back later.

JABKELL

Wearb wrote: »

Is the lockout button lighting up when it locks out? Do you get any sound at all when you press the button? If you leave it for half a day or so without fiddling with it, do you get any different results from pressing lockout? Do you know if you have power at the control box during lockout?

I am going to be offline for a while, but answering those questions may help somebody to help you. I will check back later.

Thanks for the fast reply.
The lockout light is on up when it locks out. Just getting a humming sound when I press the restart button and it doesn't matter how long you leave it. It won't start without fiddling with it. yes there is power at the control box during lockout.

Billy Bunting

fiddling!! how? lol.

Simplest thing to change and could well be your issue is the Capacitor, if that fails your back to fuell pump again i'm afraid.

scudo2

Billy Bunting wrote: »

fiddling!! how? lol.

Simplest thing to change and could well be your issue is the Capacitor, if that fails your back to fuell pump again i'm afraid.

Id say it only the capacitor Billy, as he said it turns freely (pump) and his post indicates buzzing sound !

JABKELL / OP
Remove oil pump again,put burner on it's side, put spanner or big screwdriver into slot where the oil pump was in motor, switch on burner while holding motor shaft to test if motor is strong or weak, if weak replace capacitor.
Small chance motor is goose but 95% of the time it's the capacitor if it's weak.

Put a bit of 3 in 1 oil into the motor shaft while your at it.

Failing that you might be better off calling service engineer as Billy said it could be the pump or just something else.

Or it could be something as simple as not enough or no fuel getting to the burner, you would be amazed about who's has been cought out with that one before !

Simple flow test:, loosen oil pipe to see if oil comes out strongly.




ps. Where did you get a name like that ?

Wearb

JABKELL wrote: »

Thanks for the fast reply.
The lockout light is on up when it locks out. Just getting a humming sound when I press the restart button and it doesn't matter how long you leave it. It won't start without fiddling with it. yes there is power at the control box during lockout.

Like Billy said, try capacitor.

shane0007

If you have a decent multimeter that can measure farads, you can check the capacitance reading. On the side of the capacitor you will see a capacitance reading, such as 4.0uf. You should get a reading of within a +/-5% tolerance of this. If the reading is outside this, then the likely culprit is the capacitor.

JABKELL

Wearb, Billy Bunting, scudo2 and shane0007 thanks for the reply's.

I've been out for hours. Just left the boiler on the timer (coming on for 15 mins every hour). Just don't feel like having to get tools out to bleed and restart each time I want to put heating on. Seems to work, but I doubt it's very fuel efficient and totally unnecessary if nobody in the house and the weather is so mild.

Am I right in saying the capacitor is the small white cylinder on the side of the motor ?

scudo2
when I had the fuel-pump off I checked the motor and the shaft turned freely.
fuel supply is fine and the filter is clean.

shane0007
I have a fairly good multimeter, Could you explain how to get a capacitance reading.

shane0007

Not every multimeter can measure capacitance. The symbol for it is 2 T's lying on their sides opposite each other, like -II-.
The capacitor is indeed the white cylinder type component. Pull off the end cap, remove the two wires & unscrew the capacitor. Hold the meter probes to the spades.

Wearb

JABKELL wrote: »

Wearb, Billy Bunting, scudo2 and shane0007 thanks for the reply's.

I've been out for hours. Just left the boiler on the timer (coming on for 15 mins every hour). Just don't feel like having to get tools out to bleed and restart each time I want to put heating on. Seems to work, but I doubt it's very fuel efficient and totally unnecessary if nobody in the house and the weather is so mild.

Am I right in saying the capacitor is the small white cylinder on the side of the motor ?

scudo2
when I had the fuel-pump off I checked the motor and the shaft turned freely.
fuel supply is fine and the filter is clean.

shane0007
I have a fairly good multimeter, Could you explain how to get a capacitance reading.

You are right about it being an inefficient way to use it. Yes it is probably that small cylinder (photo?) It is strange that it runs when you do that and will not start when left longer. It needs investigating, but the capacitor is a cheap enough item to try anyway. Just be careful with the contacts, they can pack a wallop if charged. Your multimeter may not have a capacitance meter on it. It is measured in Micro Farads (symbol a bit like yF).

Might just be a sticking pump. Was there any suggestions as to why the previous pump failed?

scudo2

JABKELL wrote: »

Wearb, Billy Bunting, scudo2 and shane0007 thanks for the reply's.

I've been out for hours. Just left the boiler on the timer (coming on for 15 mins every hour). Just don't feel like having to get tools out to bleed and restart each time I want to put heating on. Seems to work, but I doubt it's very fuel efficient and totally unnecessary if nobody in the house and the weather is so mild.

Am I right in saying the capacitor is the small white cylinder on the side of the motor ?

scudo2
when I had the fuel-pump off I checked the motor and the shaft turned freely.
fuel supply is fine and the filter is clean.

shane0007
I have a fairly good multimeter, Could you explain how to get a capacitance reading.

Yes the capacitor is the small white cyl.
Check how STRONG motor is as I suggested.
Capacitor is what gives the motor it's strength.

JABKELL

shane0007 wrote: »

Not every multimeter can measure capacitance. The symbol for it is 2 T's lying on their sides opposite each other, like -II-.
The capacitor is indeed the white cylinder type component. Pull off the end cap, remove the two wires & unscrew the capacitor. Hold the meter probes to the spades.

Yeah I just checked my multimeter, not as good as thought it was as it doesn't measure capacitance. I think i'll get a capacitor on Monday and try it.

Dtp1979

JABKELL wrote: »

Yeah I just checked my multimeter, not as good as thought it was as it doesn't measure capacitance. I think i'll get a capacitor on Monday and try it.

Take a pic of the face where all the symbols are on your multimeter

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

Capacitor is what gives the motor it's strength.

Capacitor's only job is to kick start the motor as they are brushless motors & there for there is not enough umph in 230v to turn the motor. The capacitor kick starts the motor & keeps it spinning.
It's really just a battery/energy store that recharges itself by the motor running.

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Capacitor's only job is to kick start the motor as they are brushless motors & there for there is not enough umph in 230v to turn the motor. The capacitor kick starts the motor & keeps it spinning.
It's really just a battery/energy store that recharges itself by the motor running.

If the capacitor is weak the motor is weak. FACT

But what would I know after only doing about 15,000+ oil boiler services over the last 20 odd years.
I only have to replace 200+ capacitor a year!
As I said, a shure, what would I know.

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

If the capacitor is weak the motor is weak. FACT

But what would I know after only doing about 15,000 oil boiler services over the last 20 odd years.
I only have to replace 200+ capacitor a year!
As I said, what would I know.

Scudo where in the name of jaysus do you pull these figures out of based on your figures above you service 750 boilers pa so are you saying approx 30% of these have faulty capiators.

As I got no volume control on my off topic alarm and the red flashing light is attracting paying customers, can I kindly ask ye to stay on topic or start a new thread on 101 interesting facts on capacitors.

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

If the capacitor is weak the motor is weak. FACT

But what would I know after only doing about 15,000+ oil boiler services over the last 20 odd years.
I only have to replace 200+ capacitor a year!
As I said, a shure, what would I know.

Wow, that's a lot of faulty capacitors within a 15 mile radius. 4 every week of the year. 4 oil pumps per week also. I would be having a word with the suppliers in that area 'cos I have never heard of as many faulty parts in a designated area in my whole life.
Most oil boilers are extremely reliable, especially Riellos. They will run & run for years with little service & much neglect. But for some reason, they all seem to break down in their hundreds all within a 15 mile radius if where you live.

You must be very proud....

But hey, it's Saturday night, feck all on the Roger Melly & I am always game for a laugh!

Hmmm....

scudo2

I'm just saying that I do a lot more oil boilers now than I did 20 years ago.

If I come across a 4uf capacitor reading below 3.25 I replace it. Less call backs a few months later.I always test them. That's what I'm paid for.
A capacitor is only the price of a nozzle (almost )
5 capacitor a week is not a crazy amount giving the fact I'm full time on oil boilers + the amount I get through, thanks to a small area and a large population. Less travel = more work.
I don't do anything else 12-13 hours a day x 6 this time of year. I leave home at 8am, get back at 9pm

I haven't gone near a gas boiler in years and would never pretend that I know much about them.

Haven't a clue about what's under the bonnet either!

I'm not trying to be pig headed, and sorry if I come across as such,

But I do know about oil boilers. But not industrial oil as it's not my field + as you can see, I'm kept going with what I specialised in. nice straight forward boilers + I keep a large stock of all burner parts = 1 call, no going off to get part and return journey.

And I'm lucky I'm kept going at it.
Cheers.

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot of faulty capacitors within a 15 mile radius. 4 every week of the year. 4 oil pumps per week also. I would be having a word with the suppliers in that area 'cos I have never heard of as many faulty parts in a designated area in my whole life.
Most oil boilers are extremely reliable, especially Riellos. They will run & run for years with little service & much neglect. But for some reason, they all seem to break down in their hundreds all within a 15 mile radius if where you live.

You must be very proud....

But hey, it's Saturday night, feck all on the Roger Melly & I am always game for a laugh!

Hmmm....

Your Criticism is not appreciated,

A well done on all the good work you do in Cork would sound nicer !!
Have a joke, have a laugh, help others is fine, it's why were here, but not criticism please.

We can correct each other if we've made a technical error.( as all inputs help ) But lets respect each others views in their field of expertise please.

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

Criticism is not appreciated, well done on all the good work you do in Cork would sound nicer !!
Have a joke, have a laugh, help others is fine, but not criticism please.

We can correct each other if we've made a technical error. But lets respect each others views in their field of expertise please.

Where's the criticism? I don't believe you & I am entitled to that, just as you are entitled to say what you say.
I also disagreed with your take what capacitors do & their affect on motors.

You seem to take everything to a whole new level, going off on tangents, throw in a bit weirdness & then look for thanks off all who will give it & if they don't, you start a array of threads asking for it.

You began your escapades on Boards with a huge amount of my respect but you slowly etched it away with personal attacks, waffle & all round weirdness posts & PM's. This forum, for me, was a place of giving assistance & getting assistance. It became a very enjoyable hobby, however, your constant remarks & insults have fast eroded that enjoyment also.

So hopefully, for disobeying our Mods instructions for continuing to take this thread off topic, I will receive my first & last ban & leave you to your wonderful expertise & knowledge & 200+ capacitor changes that really didn't need changing in the first instance.

Thanks by PM only....

scudo2

Sorry about this JARBELL
Just check motor strength as I've explained, if its weak try a new capacitor.
If not call good service engineer. Ask boiler manufacture or oil company for somebody local and good, or tell us where you live and one of us might be able to help.
Let us know how you get on. Ta

I'v asked nicely.

NO MORE OFF TOPIC POSTS

scudo2

gary71 wrote: »

I'v asked nicely.

NO MORE OFF TOPIC POSTS

Ok with me. Thanks Garry

agusta

scudo2 wrote: »

If the capacitor is weak the motor is weak. FACT

But what would I know after only doing about 15,000+ oil boiler services over the last 20 odd years.
I only have to replace 200+ capacitor a year!
As I said, a sure, what would I know.

how is a motor weak if a capacitor is weak,Could you please explain?,they are doing two different jobs!

MOD

THE NEXT OFF TOPIC POST GETS A INFRACTION.

IF YOU WISH TO DEBATE A CAPACITORS RELATIONSHIP TO A MOTOR PLEASE FEEL FREE TO START A NEW THREAD.

.jacksparrow.

Capacitor is weak means motor is weak?

Hmmm somehow I don't think so.

Billy Bunting

Gosh!! such a blowy ol day.

JABKELL wrote: »

I can get it restarted after about 15 minutes of fiddling with it.( bleeding the fuel- pump and lightly tapping the pump,motor and fan housing ).I removed the burner,removed the fuel-pump(which was turning freely)the motor seems to be turning freely as is the fan. I cleaned the fuel filter (no dirt inside really) and when re-installing half filled with Diptane fuel additive to see would it help only to find the boiler locked out again this morning. I have also tried another control module (the unit that the reset button is on) and I tried another electrical connector that goes onto the fuel pump.The fuel-pump was replaced 11 months ago.

While the Capacitor is your best bet don't be thinking the pump is fine just because it turns freely, a free running pump can be solid after 10 minutes running time, then simply free running again once cold.

Why did you replace the original pump. ?

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Gosh!! such a blowy ol day.



While the Capacitor is your best bet don't be thinking the pump is fine just because it turns freely, a free running pump can be solid after 10 minutes running time, then simply free running again once cold.

Why did you replace the original pump. ?

Would have to agree with billy

jimf

For your sake hope it is just a capicator but if not then pump would be next to eliminate after that motor bearings would also be a possibility. Ive had 3 riello 40 series with fcuked motor bearings this week

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

For your sake hope it is just a capicator but if not then pump would be next to eliminate after that motor bearings would also be a possibility. Ive had 3 riello 40 series with fcuked motor bearings this week

Be glad it wasn't capacitors
Look at the trouble they can cause.

Who would want Gary's job with us lot around stirring it

scudo2

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Capacitor is weak means motor is weak?

Hmmm somehow I don't think so.

Sorry Jack, If I've come across wrong again, but I was only explaining to OP in layman terms.
Hold the motor shaft, in my experience if the strength of the motor is weak ( different levels of weakness )
If capacitor is below 2 uf you'd hold/stop it with your little finger.
OP stated that shaft on oil pump turned freely but sometimes motor didn't it just hummed , but ran freely when it had no load with the oil pump removed, Most likely cause is capacitor, I just gave him simple DIY testing advice.
As he's only a DIY 'er,

Yes, we ourselves can get more technical where explaining things to each other, which is good, and helpful.

Sorry if caused confusion.
Lets talk politics, it's safer than capacitor.!
Thanks.

Wearb

Wearb wrote: »

Be glad it wasn't capacitors
Look at the trouble they can cause.

Who would want Gary's job with us lot around stirring it

Don't worry i'v been watching a box set of Jeremy Kyle.

So I figured out: arguing or contributing to a on going argument will end in tears.

Exchanging the vast knowledge that is obviously out there in a caring and sharing manor will lead to good karma for all.

But if we could make sure the OP is sorted before the games begin then that would be lovely.

Wearb

gary71 wrote: »

Don't worry i'v been watching a box set of Jeremy Kyle.

So I figured out: arguing or contributing to a on going argument will end in tears.

Exchanging the vast knowledge that is obviously out there in a caring and sharing manor will lead to good karma for all.

But if we could make sure the OP is sorted before the games begin then that would be lovely.

Amazingly all the OP's questions have been answered here and no more help can be given to him until he rules out corrections that have been suggested to him. .................... hmmmmm lovely smell of roast beef coming from the kitchen..........Im off. :pac:

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Be glad it wasn't capacitors
Look at the trouble they can cause.

Who would want Gary's job with us lot around stirring it

May god forgive you for suggesting that stirrers frequent this forum I would suggest your magna didn't work last nite and there is still a lot of sludge left over after all that Guinness

Wearb

Wearb wrote: »

Amazingly all the OP's questions have been answered here and no more help can be given to him until he rules out corrections that have been suggested to him. .................... hmmmmm lovely smell of roast beef coming from the kitchen..........Im off. :pac:

There is no conclusion yet and in fairness to the OP how many posts should be on his thread after he last posted by the time he comes back?

If a question has been answered then I think there's a bit of freedom to go off topic if we're mid fault finding then we should stay on topic and wait for the OP to come back.

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

May god forgive you for suggesting that stirrers frequent this forum I would suggest your magna didn't work last nite and there is still a lot of sludge left over after all that Guinness

At least it wasn't pumping over.

Ok Gary, that's my last off topic comment...................at least on this thread.

JABKELL

Wearb wrote: »

You are right about it being an inefficient way to use it. Yes it is probably that small cylinder (photo?) It is strange that it runs when you do that and will not start when left longer. It needs investigating, but the capacitor is a cheap enough item to try anyway. Just be careful with the contacts, they can pack a wallop if charged. Your multimeter may not have a capacitance meter on it. It is measured in Micro Farads (symbol a bit like yF).

Might just be a sticking pump. Was there any suggestions as to why the previous pump failed?

I was told by a plumber, a neighbour of mine that the pump needed to be replaced because the boiler and locked out and wouldn't restart. That was last January. Since this recent problem two weeks ago, he has tried the new control box and wired connection to the fuel pump. This guy reckons the motors don't usually give trouble and suggested it may need a new fuel pump. The boiler is dated 1997. I've been living in house the past 7 years and last January was the first time the boiler, fuel pump gave any problems. So the previous fuel pump had been there for 6 years+.

Billy Bunting

Motor doesnt give a lot of problems other than bearing which are normally apparent by the noise before giving up, the Capacitor is very common, and pumps are at times finicky and very reliant on good fuel.

JABKELL

scudo2 wrote: »

Sorry about this JARBELL
Just check motor strength as I've explained, if its weak try a new capacitor.
If not call good service engineer. Ask boiler manufacture or oil company for somebody local and good, or tell us where you live and one of us might be able to help.
Let us know how you get on. Ta

scudo2 I think I'll get a new capacitor tomorrow and try that, especially as there inexpensive and I know the one on my burner hasn't been changed in at least 7 years.(it could be the original).

Based in Co. Meath.

JABKELL

jimf wrote: »

For your sake hope it is just a capicator but if not then pump would be next to eliminate after that motor bearings would also be a possibility. Ive had 3 riello 40 series with fcuked motor bearings this week

jimf I checked the motor bearings when I had the burner out,( fuel-pump out and fan housing off). They seemed fine to me with no play or signs of breakdown.when I do get the burner running as described (bit of fiddling)there is no noticeable bearing noise.

scudo2

JABKELL wrote: »

scudo2 I think I'll get a new capacitor tomorrow and try that, especially as there inexpensive and I know the one on my burner hasn't been changed in at least 7 years.(it could be the original).

Based in Co. Meath.

Good service engineer in Athboy if your stuck.
PM. crock! " Its his name here."

But his Mammy named him David.
He also does a 20% discount if you mention me !!!!!

Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
Thanks

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

Good service engineer in Athboy if your stuck.
PM. crock! " Its his name here."

But his Mammy named him David.
He also does a 20% discount if you mention me !!!!!

Best of luck and let us know how you get on.
Thanks

You get 30% if you don't mention him at all

JABKELL

jimf wrote: »

You get 30% if you don't mention him at all

LOL
I say nothing so !!!

DGOBS

He's based near Kells, not Athboy. Sure he would like to help if needed, discounts were not authorised with him, any interaction as such should be kept too PM only.

Yelling discounts got you in hot water before, that an end to it, see you in a week.

JABKELL

Well today i went and got a capacitor,(the original one in the burner is dated 1997) fitted the new one but the problem persists. Fiddled around to get the boiler restarted, I knocked on and off the boiler a few times and did notice a strange sound as the fuel pump/motor slowed down. Thinking now I may need to get a new fuel pump. I didn't seem to get long out of the last one, its only in 11 months!! Or maybe contact a good service engineer as suggested above.

shane0007

JABKELL wrote: »

Well today i went and got a capacitor,(the original one in the burner is dated 1997) fitted the new one but the problem persists. Fiddled around to get the boiler restarted, I knocked on and off the boiler a few times and did notice a strange sound as the fuel pump/motor slowed down. Thinking now I may need to get a new fuel pump. I didn't seem to get long out of the last one, its only in 11 months!! Or maybe contact a good service engineer as suggested above.

In my opinion, you should get a service engineer in as a fuel pump needs to be set to the correct working pressure to suit the make & model boiler. It would also avoid costly plug & play fault finding. With a vacuum gauge a partial blockage in the line be the cause of the failing pumps or water in your oil tank. A decent service engineer will be able to identify all of these. Problem could also be a motor issue.

Wearb

JABKELL wrote: »

Well today i went and got a capacitor,(the original one in the burner is dated 1997) fitted the new one but the problem persists. Fiddled around to get the boiler restarted, I knocked on and off the boiler a few times and did notice a strange sound as the fuel pump/motor slowed down. Thinking now I may need to get a new fuel pump. I didn't seem to get long out of the last one, its only in 11 months!! Or maybe contact a good service engineer as suggested above.

You never got an explanation as to why the last pump gave up the ghost. Sometimes it is impossible to figure it out, but it is always necessary to thoroughly investigate it, because of the cost of the pump and likelihood of the new one also going the same way. I suppose in hindsight, it would have been better to have had a good boiler service person out originally, but if we all could see the future we would never make mistakes.

If it is the pump that's gone. Ask yourself these questions; do you regularly lift up back of tank to get last out of it? Do you buy small amounts and run out often? Do you buy from reputable sources? Have you a good quality filter on your tank? Has your tank been checked for water? etc.etc.

Billy Bunting

To be honest if its the original Mectron burner i would think about replacing it rather than throw money at it.

jimf

I'd be leaning towards motor bearings at this stage if the burner slowed noticeably at full revs not all bearings start noising before failure I could be wrong I was wrong once before I think twas back in 1995 I said yes when I should have said no

Billy Bunting

Tut tut!! humour :eek: toys will be thrown.