Christmas messages from politicians

Sarky

Someone left an unmarked envelope in at my house earlier today. I just opened it, and it consists of one of those dull nativity scene Christmas cards with a bible verse and "May Christ bless you & yours" stuff on the inside, and a letter from Cork city council where a Fianna Fail-associated Cllr. Kenneth Noel O'Flynn P.C. is wishing me a holy and happy Christmas. Poor chap seems to think I'm a christian, along with everyone else on the street. That'd probably be a surprise to the halal food shop down the road, but I digress...

The letter is official City Council headed paper, I seem to remember there being some upset about politicians using official paper like this. Can anyone jog my memory, or otherwise provide info on whether it's just him being a bit tasteless or if he's skirting the borders of what's legal?

My name is URL

What's tasteless about it... assuming everyone celebrates Christmas or assuming everyone's Christian?

Sarky

Both, really, but primarily the latter. Very mixed bunch of people in this area of all sorts of faiths and none. Sending them all a picture of the virgin Mary in a stable and wishing them a happy christmas is at the very least totally tactless. I certainly think it's bad taste.

hfallada

Christmas is so much more than a Christian holiday. In fact it's not really Christian at all anymore. It's a time for people to get together and party. It's not uncommon for Jews in New York to put up some decorations.

I know plenty of people who aren't at all Christian and still celebrate Christmas. Christmas is like Europes thanksgiving equivalent.

lazygal

hfallada wrote: »

Christmas is so much more than a Christian holiday. In fact it's not really Christian at all anymore. It's a time for people to get together and party. It's not uncommon for Jews in New York to put up some decorations.

I know plenty of people who aren't at all Christian and still celebrate Christmas. Christmas is like Europes thanksgiving equivalent.

You don't need that much cop on to send non religious greetings for the festive season. This smacks of a politician who either doesn't care that not everyone is Christian or doesn't know that a religious card might be inappropriate. Not good either way. I don't think it's appropriate to send religiously tinged correspondence from a state body.

Sulla Felix

I'm more annoyed at a public representative using their office to send out inane greetings at all. It's a crass piece of brand positioning.

jimd2

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I'm more annoyed at a public representative using their office to send out inane greetings at all. It's a crass piece of brand positioning.

Absolutely. Too many other issues to contend with.

jimd2

lazygal wrote: »

You don't need that much cop on to send non religious greetings for the festive season. This smacks of a politician who either doesn't care that not everyone is Christian or doesn't know that a religious card might be inappropriate. Not good either way. I don't think it's appropriate to send religiously tinged correspondence from a state body.

The politically correct brigade out again! No need to be getting your knickers in a twist over this.

If you get religuous related cards in the post etc just tear them up. Is that too difficult? And when the rest of us are enjoying the few days make sure you stay at home and ignore the season. If you have kids, tell them its all bull$hit and you are not celebrating anything.

And, yes, if an elderly aunt happens to have the temerity to send you a card with some religuous sentiment make sure you put her in her place about the sheer stupidity of her and her fellow religuous cronies!

jimd2

Sarky wrote: »

Both, really, but primarily the latter. Very mixed bunch of people in this area of all sorts of faiths and none. Sending them all a picture of the virgin Mary in a stable and wishing them a happy christmas is at the very least totally tactless. I certainly think it's bad taste.

I think it is very few people that get offended over cards like this. People will just ignore them and get on with whatever other miriad of issues facing them on a day to day basis. Certainly not tactless or bad taste. I have never ever met anyone complain about this and I would have quite a wide circle of friends, workmates and associates on a variety of committees etc.

Sarky

I'm really glad you have a wide circle of friends, but that doesn't make you right. It's a waste of money and it's a tactless assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge of the area a politician is supposed to represent.

Thanks for labelling me as politically correct though. I don't know where we'd all be without well connected people with loads of friends like yourself to tell us what we should be thinking.

Gah Humbug 55

i am reminded of this:


Happy Solstice, Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanza Sorry for the delay...our Legal Department just approved the following Holiday Greeting:


Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday(tm), practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secularpersuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not topractice religious or secular traditions at all . . . and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society havehelped make America great, (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "AMERICA" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual orientation of the wishee.


By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion oft he wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual pplication of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

lazygal

jimd2 wrote: »

The politically correct brigade out again! No need to be getting your knickers in a twist over this.

If you get religuous related cards in the post etc just tear them up. Is that too difficult? And when the rest of us are enjoying the few days make sure you stay at home and ignore the season. If you have kids, tell them its all bull$hit and you are not celebrating anything.

And, yes, if an elderly aunt happens to have the temerity to send you a card with some religuous sentiment make sure you put her in her place about the sheer stupidity of her and her fellow religuous cronies!

First, its "religious". Second, I've no problem with being politically correct. Third, the "season" can be enjoyed by all as its a traditional time for celebration, religious appropriations of the season aside. Fourth, I don't tell my kids any religion is bull****,just that we don't follow any of them. Fifth, if people spend their own, as opposed to state, money on festive greetings they can send whatever legal images they like, elderly or not.

jimd2

Sarky wrote: »

I'm really glad you have a wide circle of friends, but that doesn't make you right. It's a waste of money and it's a tactless assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge of the area a politician is supposed to represent.

Thanks for labelling me as politically correct though. I don't know where we'd all be without well connected people with loads of friends like yourself to tell us what we should be thinking.

I don't know what makes you believe that I am well connected and I am not telling you what you should be thinking. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am telling you what you should be thinking.

jimd2

lazygal wrote: »

First, its "religious". Second, I've no problem with being politically correct. Third, the "season" can be enjoyed by all as its a traditional time for celebration, religious appropriations of the season aside. Fourth, I don't tell my kids any religion is bull****,just that we don't follow any of them. Fifth, if people spend their own, as opposed to state, money on festive greetings they can send whatever legal images they like, elderly or not.

As I said don't be getting your knickers in a twist over this issue. Not an issue worthy of a thread on this site and is only brought up by people that seem to have very little to worry about.

jimd2

lazygal wrote: »

First, its "religious". Second, I've no problem with being politically correct. Third, the "season" can be enjoyed by all as its a traditional time for celebration, religious appropriations of the season aside. Fourth, I don't tell my kids any religion is bull****,just that we don't follow any of them. Fifth, if people spend their own, as opposed to state, money on festive greetings they can send whatever legal images they like, elderly or not.

And regarding celebrations I see that you don't rule out celebrating Christmas though you shun everything else to do with religion......how am I not surprised.

Sarky

I don't think you could miss the point any more than you are doing right now.

[-0-]

Dead right Sarky. This would annoy me to no end. I'd love to know the legality of it.

Geomy

Sarky wrote: »

Someone left an unmarked envelope in at my house earlier today. I just opened it, and it consists of one of those dull nativity scene Christmas cards with a bible verse and "May Christ bless you & yours" stuff on the inside, and a letter from Cork city council where a Fianna Fail-associated Cllr. Kenneth Noel O'Flynn P.C. is wishing me a holy and happy Christmas. Poor chap seems to think I'm a christian, along with everyone else on the street. That'd probably be a surprise to the halal food shop down the road, but I digress...

The letter is official City Council headed paper, I seem to remember there being some upset about politicians using official paper like this. Can anyone jog my memory, or otherwise provide info on whether it's just him being a bit tasteless or if he's skirting the borders of what's legal?

Maybe he should have sent you one of those stuffed Coca Cola Polar Bears.

And a box of Seasons Greetings. ..

Bah humbug....

Geomy

Sarky wrote: »

Someone left an unmarked envelope in at my house earlier today. I just opened it, and it consists of one of those dull nativity scene Christmas cards with a bible verse and "May Christ bless you & yours" stuff on the inside, and a letter from Cork city council where a Fianna Fail-associated Cllr. Kenneth Noel O'Flynn P.C. is wishing me a holy and happy Christmas. Poor chap seems to think I'm a christian, along with everyone else on the street. That'd probably be a surprise to the halal food shop down the road, but I digress...

The letter is official City Council headed paper, I seem to remember there being some upset about politicians using official paper like this. Can anyone jog my memory, or otherwise provide info on whether it's just him being a bit tasteless or if he's skirting the borders of what's legal?

Maybe he should have sent you one of those stuffed Coca Cola Polar Bears.

And a box of Seasons Greetings. ..

Bah humbug....

McDook

Please never let me become the atheist who wants to spoil christmas for everyone else.
Best one I saw last year was a friend who wouldnt take his elderly mother to mass christmas morning because HE didnt believe in it.
Another atheist friend of ours saw how much it meant to her and brought her. I would have too if id known about it before hand.
Some people are just dying to be offended.

Geomy

McDook wrote: »

Please never let me become the atheist who wants to spoil christmas for everyone else.
Best one I saw last year was a friend who wouldnt take his elderly mother to mass christmas morning because HE didnt believe in it.
Another atheist friend of ours saw how much it meant to her and brought her. I would have too if id known about it before hand.
Some people are just dying to be offended.

Those kind of people should seek professional help, I don't think they're even aware of the way they are. ...

It just goes to show how something they don't believe in, has such a negative impact on their decisions.

jimd2

McDook wrote: »

Please never let me become the atheist who wants to spoil christmas for everyone else.
Best one I saw last year was a friend who wouldnt take his elderly mother to mass christmas morning because HE didnt believe in it.
Another atheist friend of ours saw how much it meant to her and brought her. I would have too if id known about it before hand.
Some people are just dying to be offended.

I agree fully and fair play to your friend for doing that. I am sure it added to both their Christmas.

I think that the key issue on this thread is the fact that politicians are still using state funds to send their cards, not the traditional religious emblems on those cards. If said politicians think it is important enough to send the cards then they should pay for them themselves.

McDook

jimd2 wrote: »

I agree fully and fair play to your friend for doing that. I am sure it added to both their Christmas.

I think that the key issue on this thread is the fact that politicians are still using state funds to send their cards, not the traditional religious emblems on those cards. If said politicians think it is important enough to send the cards then they should pay for them themselves.

Well then it shouldnt be in an atheist forum to be fair.
But the OP certainly did make a religious issue out of it. That and actually posting it under this category.

Qs

lazygal wrote: »

First, its "religious". Second, I've no problem with being politically correct.

Indeed, I'm very suspicious of anyone who think political correctness is such a terrible thing.

Xmas isn't only a religious celebration. If that's part of it for you then I hope you find it very fulfilling. However a lot of people don't have religion as part of their Xmas and certainly many non-Christains celebrate at Xmas. Expecting politicians not to send you religious iconography is hardly being an anti-Xmas spoil sport.

kylith

jimd2 wrote: »

And regarding celebrations I see that you don't rule out celebrating Christmas though you shun everything else to do with religion......how am I not surprised.

Probably because Christmas has been around for, what, 1000/1500 years (much less than that in its current form, of course) whereas Mid-Winter Festivals have been around since, ooh, pretty much the dawn of civilisation (if not the dawn of humanity).

If anything, everyone else should be annoyed at Christians for trying to make something exclusively Christian out of what could well be humanity's oldest annual party.

Sarky

Being annoyed at someone's thoughtlessness is suddenly trying to spoil Christmas for a few people. Jesus, I'm a monster. How very dare I mention that Christian blessings aren't appropriate greetings for non-christians.

Would anyone like to argue against something I actually said? Or are you, ahem, just dying to be offended?

Geomy

Sarky wrote: »

Being annoyed at someone's thoughtlessness is suddenly trying to spoil Christmas for a few people. Jesus, I'm a monster. How very dare I mention that Christian blessings aren't appropriate greetings for non-christians.

Would anyone like to argue against something I actually said? Or are you, ahem, just dying to be offended?

PMSL

Geomy

kylith wrote: »

Probably because Christmas has been around for, what, 1000/1500 years (much less than that in its current form, of course) whereas Mid-Winter Festivals have been around since, ooh, pretty much the dawn of civilisation (if not the dawn of humanity).

If anything, everyone else should be annoyed at Christians for trying to make something exclusively Christian out of what could well be humanity's oldest annual party.

I don't see anything Christian about local Christmas fairs and party's. ...

Up Here in North Clare it has a more pagan element to it rather than Christian, we don't have the parish priest or Pastor trying to ruin Christmas for the Atheists and non Christians.

Does this happen in other places ?

lazygal

Geomy wrote: »

I don't see anything Christian about local Christmas fairs and party's. ...

Up Here in North Clare it has a more pagan element to it rather than Christian, we don't have the parish priest or Pastor trying to ruin Christmas for the Atheists and non Christians.

Does this happen in other places ?

How would one go about ruining Christmas for atheists? A ban on biscuits maybe.....

Animord

Sarky wrote: »

Someone left an unmarked envelope in at my house earlier today. I just opened it, and it consists of one of those dull nativity scene Christmas cards with a bible verse and "May Christ bless you & yours" stuff on the inside, and a letter from Cork city council where a Fianna Fail-associated Cllr. Kenneth Noel O'Flynn P.C. is wishing me a holy and happy Christmas. Poor chap seems to think I'm a christian, along with everyone else on the street. That'd probably be a surprise to the halal food shop down the road, but I digress...

The letter is official City Council headed paper, I seem to remember there being some upset about politicians using official paper like this. Can anyone jog my memory, or otherwise provide info on whether it's just him being a bit tasteless or if he's skirting the borders of what's legal?

Who has paid for this card to be sent to you Sarky? Is it tax payers money?

Sarky

Animord wrote: »

Who has paid for this card to be sent to you Sarky? Is it tax payers money?

It's City Council paper, so the City Council paid for it. Which means taxpayer money.

Animord

Sarky wrote: »

It's City Council paper, so the City Council paid for it. Which means taxpayer money.

Well, I'd like my card back please.

On a more serious note, this stuff drives me barmy. I obviously don't know what the cost of all these cards and delivery is but presumably it could have gone to fix at least one of the potholes on Buttevant main street, or where ever. It is such a bl**dy waste of money.

legspin

jimd2 wrote: »

As I said don't be getting your knickers in a twist over this issue. Not an issue worthy of a thread on this site and is only brought up by people that seem to have very little to worry about.

It's a tip of the iceberg problem. In showing this level of unthink about the implications of sending a religious xmas card, this politician has shown a lack of regard to some of his prospective voters. He is a public representative, not just of those with the same invisible friend. If this lack of consideration is typical I fear for the rest of his decisions.

That he is a member of Final Failure only compounds this.....

Crooked Jack

Sarky wrote: »

Both, really, but primarily the latter. Very mixed bunch of people in this area of all sorts of faiths and none. Sending them all a picture of the virgin Mary in a stable and wishing them a happy christmas is at the very least totally tactless. I certainly think it's bad taste.

I think you're going out of your way to be offended here. It seems like he's assuming everybody celebrates christmas (which a tremendous amount of athiests do, regardless of the hypocrisy) or assuming that in a largely christian country even people of other faiths and none would recognise that it's an important holiday here.
Im the first person to jump in and have a go at FF but you're just looking for stuff to offended by here

the_syco

jimd2 wrote: »

And, yes, if an elderly aunt happens to have the temerity to send you a card with some religuous sentiment make sure you put her in her place about the sheer stupidity of her and her fellow religuous cronies!

I'm sure the aunt is not using a hundred thousand euro that could be better spend at your local childrens hospital, to send out said card?

[-0-]

Sarky wrote: »

Being annoyed at someone's thoughtlessness is suddenly trying to spoil Christmas for a few people. Jesus, I'm a monster. How very dare I mention that Christian blessings aren't appropriate greetings for non-christians.

Would anyone like to argue against something I actually said? Or are you, ahem, just dying to be offended?

Lately, this place appears to be full of people who claim to know other people's minds, motives, and so on.

Brian Shanahan

jimd2 wrote: »

The politically correct brigade out again! No need to be getting your knickers in a twist over this.

She's right. You're wrong. Not very many people in Ireland are christian any more, except for in name only. They don't celebrate the birth of Jeebus at christmas, nor for that matter, do they celebrate the proper meaning of christmas, the return of the sun from its winter holiday down under (preferrably with some human sacrifices).

Brian Shanahan

[-0-] wrote: »

Lately, this place appears to be full of people who claim to know other people's minds, motives, and so on.

Hey they're aggressively religious. I find that those who listen to the voices in their heads also tend to be the ones who "best know" whats good for others.

Geomy

lazygal wrote: »

How would one go about ruining Christmas for atheists? A ban on biscuits maybe.....

I don't know lazygal, its a time for everyone. ..
I'm not atheist or religious...
But I mingle with Atheists and Religious people, and they're all sound. ..

I think they should keep the biscuits in tinned boxes, they taste better than the bikies in plastic boxes...

Geomy

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Hey they're aggressively religious. I find that those who listen to the voices in their heads also tend to be the ones who "best know" whats good for others.

Yeah Brian, but I only come across those people in Boards.ie

Geomy

[-0-] wrote: »

Lately, this place appears to be full of people who claim to know other people's minds, motives, and so on.

I think there's medication for that.

[-0-]

I don't get why people have issues with atheists celebrating Christmas.

Christmas was never a religious holiday in my household at least. It was always a family celebration. It's a time to celebrate life, friends and family.

Who says atheists have no right to celebrate that?

jimd2

Sarky wrote: »

Being annoyed at someone's thoughtlessness is suddenly trying to spoil Christmas for a few people. Jesus, I'm a monster. How very dare I mention that Christian blessings aren't appropriate greetings for non-christians.

Would anyone like to argue against something I actually said? Or are you, ahem, just dying to be offended?

Certainly not me "dying to be offended". I would suggest that your comment there is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black tbh.

My issue is really this thing of people who are atheist being very eager to celebrate Christmas (which I have absolutely no problem with I assure you). Then the same people who now wish to take any Christian traditions / images from the celebration.

You don't believe in God, fair enough. You don't want to celebrate fair enough. However, Christmas is predominantly in this country a Christian celebration for the last hundreds of years but you want people to remove any images associated with Christmas as it is traditionally celebrated in Ireland.

I agree with the point about politicians and them using public money to send out Christmas cards, I just have an issue with people thinking that the traditional cards should no longer be sent just because there is an increased number of non religious in the country. I don't see how any normal thinking atheist or from another religion could be genuinely offended. And, to be honest I think it is a bit hypocritical to join in what is essentially a Christian celebration (in this country anyway) and now start telling those celebrating and wishing each other all the best for a happy and holy season that this is wrong and that they shouldn't be doing it this way.

My twopence worth anyway

Geomy

[-0-] wrote: »

I don't get why people have issues with atheists celebrating Christmas.

Christmas was never a religious holiday in my household at least. It was always a family celebration. It's a time to celebrate life, friends and family.

Who says atheists have no right to celebrate that?

I think it's some strident Atheists that say that.

I for the life of me don't know any one who thinks Atheists shouldn't celebrate Christmas. ...

And if I Google it, its just me looking for something miserable....

Thankfully I have the mindful ability to realise that misery attracts misery. ..

Geomy

jimd2 wrote: »

Certainly not me "dying to be offended". I would suggest that your comment there is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black tbh.

My issue is really this thing of people who are atheist being very eager to celebrate Christmas (which I have absolutely no problem with I assure you). Then the same people who now wish to take any Christian traditions / images from the celebration.

You don't believe in God, fair enough. You don't want to celebrate fair enough. However, Christmas is predominantly in this country a Christian celebration for the last hundreds of years but you want people to remove any images associated with Christmas as it is traditionally celebrated in Ireland.

I agree with the point about politicians and them using public money to send out Christmas cards, I just have an issue with people thinking that the traditional cards should no longer be sent just because there is an increased number of non religious in the country. I don't see how any normal thinking atheist or from another religion could be genuinely offended. And, to be honest I think it is a bit hypocritical to join in what is essentially a Christian celebration (in this country anyway) and now start telling those celebrating and wishing each other all the best for a happy and holy season that this is wrong and that they shouldn't be doing it this way.

My twopence worth anyway

Jimd2 well said.

He's not your typical Atheist, the majority here haven't a chip on their shoulder like Sarky does,about religion and Christmas. ..

SARKY THINKS HE'S WELL BALANCED BUT DOESN'T REALISE IT'S BECAUSE HE'S TWO SHOULDERS ARE CHIPPED. ..

jimd2

[-0-] wrote: »

I don't get why people have issues with atheists celebrating Christmas.

Christmas was never a religious holiday in my household at least. It was always a family celebration. It's a time to celebrate life, friends and family.

Who says atheists have no right to celebrate that?

I know of no one Christian or otherwise that thinks Atheists shouldn't celebrate Christmas.

This thread is about sarky, lazygal etc who are probably Atheists (but that doesn't concern me) saying that it is somehow inappropriate for people to be sending cards with religious symbols. It is they that have the problem and are essentially trying to dictate how Christmas should be celebrated in the current age. People wont always know the religion of the recipient of all cards. it hasn't been an issue in the past. Please don't make an issue of it now.

catallus

The more I look at atheists and their stance the more I am reminded of intolerance and the Nazis. The EDL also use many of the same arguments as internet atheists do. Like the Nazis they define themselves not by what they are but by what they (ostensibly) are not.

The accusation of "certain folk" feigning offence about over-sensitive views is laughable coming out of the mealy mouth of any atheist. This thread just proves that point.

Turtwig

Folks, this thread is fast descending into the realm of abyss. Once it falls there there's no possibility of a return. Any more mentions of people's personalities, medication, nazis, snarkiness, etc will likely be carded.

Obliq

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I'm more annoyed at a public representative using their office to send out inane greetings at all. It's a crass piece of brand positioning.

Ewwwww, I don't like this thread. This (above) ^ , is the only thing I like about this thread. I would be happy enough to receive seasonal greetings with a religious slant from any representative of any religion (with the possible exception of the homeopaths), SO LONG AS they paid for the printing and postage themselves. Ends opinion.

Geomy

Jernal wrote: »

Folks, this thread is fast descending into the realm of abyss. Once it falls there there's no possibility of a return. Any more mentions of people's personalities, medication, nazis, snarkiness, etc will likely be carded.

Discussions can get heated at times here alright, sure it's only a bit of banter. ..

Did someone flag some of our post's ?

Crooked Jack

Obliq wrote: »

Ewwwww, I don't like this thread. This (above) ^ , is the only thing I like about this thread. I would be happy enough to receive seasonal greetings with a religious slant from any representative of any religion (with the possible exception of the homeopaths), SO LONG AS they paid for the printing and postage themselves. Ends opinion.

Exactly, i mean if someone is sending you good thoughts of any denomination, surely that's a positive. I mean, isnt getting wound up about a nice sentiment because it doesnt originate from your particular view kind of bigoted.