Heating not working in a rented house.

omicron

Signed a lease for a house on 1st July last as a group of students. We were informed on signing the lease that the heating was disconnected and to let the landlord know when we wanted it connected.
The heating in the house is gas fired hot air heating.

Around mid October we decided we should get the heating going before it got cold. The landlord told us that the last tenants hadn't used the gas heating and had instead relied on the fireplace and their own electric heaters. The previous tenants had not paid their gas bill and the gas had been disconnected and not reconnected. We were told that if we arranged reconnection the landlord would pay the fee.

It took a while to arrange reconnection as we couldn't find out our GPRN and Bord Gais were a bit delayed but we eventually got it sorted about 3 or 4 weeks ago. The technician who reconnected it couldn't get the boiler working so he isolated the boiler and told us we had to get it fixed and have an RGI sign off on it as soon as possible. We informed the landlord of this, and after a few weeks we have finally found out that the boiler is beyond repair. The landlord had suggested that if this was the case that a new boiler and radiators would be put in to replace this.

Now the landlord is saying that that would be to expensive, (he quoted a figure of €8k) and that he doesn't want to take a chance on a second hand boiler as it may not work. Instead he is providing us with 4 oil filled electric radiators which he is to deliver tomorrow. It is a 4 bedroom house with 1 bathroom, kitchen, living room and toilet.

What I'm wondering is if he is allowed get away with this? Can we be expected to heat a house on electric heaters without storage heaters and night rate? And can we be expected to heat a whole house with 4 heaters? (The fireplace is too small to heat the living room). Also how do we heat the bathroom with them? This is an issue as due to the lack of heating and ventilation there is mould starting to grow in the bathroom.

The requirements for landlords seems to say that a fixed heating appliance is required per inhabitable room although I'm not sure what constitutes 'fixed'.

Also we rented the house on the basis of heating it with gas (albeit an inefficient hot air system), if we want it to be anyway comfortable it's going to cost a lot more now. Do we have any rights there? So far getting by with extra clothes, electric blankets and spending as little time at home as possible.

The tenancy isn't on the PRTB's published list, not sure how accurate that is though., and we did give all the relevant details for registering when we signed the lease.

tl;dr - heating isn't working or going to be fixed, replaced with portable electric and not enough of them, as a permanent solution, is this acceptable?

the_syco

omicron wrote: »

Now the landlord is saying that that would be to expensive, (he quoted a figure of €8k) and that he doesn't want to take a chance on a second hand boiler as it may not work.

I'm betting he knew this before you moved in, but gambled that by the time you noticed, you'd be in the place for a couple of months.

omicron wrote: »

Instead he is providing us with 4 oil filled electric radiators which he is to deliver tomorrow. It is a 4 bedroom house with 1 bathroom, kitchen, living room and toilet.

I wonder how expensive this works out to?

omicron wrote: »

Also we rented the house on the basis of heating it with gas (albeit an inefficient hot air system), if we want it to be anyway comfortable it's going to cost a lot more now. Do we have any rights there? So far getting by with extra clothes, electric blankets and spending as little time at home as possible.

What does your lease say, or do you even have a lease?

ABajaninCork

omicron wrote: »

It took a while to arrange reconnection as we couldn't find out our GPRN and Bord Gais were a bit delayed but we eventually got it sorted about 3 or 4 weeks ago. The technician who reconnected it couldn't get the boiler working so he isolated the boiler and told us we had to get it fixed and have an RGI sign off on it as soon as possible. We informed the landlord of this, and after a few weeks we have finally found out that the boiler is beyond repair. The landlord had suggested that if this was the case that a new boiler and radiators would be put in to replace this.

Now the landlord is saying that that would be to expensive, (he quoted a figure of €8k) and that he doesn't want to take a chance on a second hand boiler as it may not work. Instead he is providing us with 4 oil filled electric radiators which he is to deliver tomorrow. It is a 4 bedroom house with 1 bathroom, kitchen, living room and toilet.

What I'm wondering is if he is allowed get away with this? Can we be expected to heat a house on electric heaters without storage heaters and night rate? And can we be expected to heat a whole house with 4 heaters? (The fireplace is too small to heat the living room). Also how do we heat the bathroom with them? This is an issue as due to the lack of heating and ventilation there is mould starting to grow in the bathroom.

The requirements for landlords seems to say that a fixed heating appliance is required per inhabitable room although I'm not sure what constitutes 'fixed'.

Also we rented the house on the basis of heating it with gas (albeit an inefficient hot air system), if we want it to be anyway comfortable it's going to cost a lot more now. Do we have any rights there? So far getting by with extra clothes, electric blankets and spending as little time at home as possible.

The tenancy isn't on the PRTB's published list, not sure how accurate that is though., and we did give all the relevant details for registering when we signed the lease.

tl;dr - heating isn't working or going to be fixed, replaced with portable electric and not enough of them, as a permanent solution, is this acceptable?

Legally, the LL cannot put in a second hand gas boiler. It has to be new.

Did you get notice of your tenancy from the PRTB? If the answer's no, then it isn't registered...

ted1

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Legally, the LL cannot put in a second hand gas boiler. It has to be new.

Did you get notice of your tenancy from the PRTB? If the answer's no, then it isn't registered...

That sounds odd, can you link to the legislation

ABajaninCork

ted1 wrote: »

That sounds odd, can you link to the legislation

Not at all. Makes total sense if you think about it. I'll try to find it for you, but no RGI can install a second-hand boiler because of the risks with the gas. I've never heard of it here or in the UK where I'm from.

omicron

the_syco wrote: »

I'm betting he knew this before you moved in, but gambled that by the time you noticed, you'd be in the place for a couple of months.


I wonder how expensive this works out to?


What does your lease say, or do you even have a lease?

We signed a lease but don't have a copy of it. I don't think it mentions heating but it does say that we pay the gas bill ourselves I think, as you'd expect. We reckon that it'll be somewhere between 2 and 3 times the cost of gas, but the main problem is that we can't heat the whole house on it, and definitely can't heat the bathroom on it, which is an issue as there is mold starting to grow in the bathroom.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Legally, the LL cannot put in a second hand gas boiler. It has to be new.

Did you get notice of your tenancy from the PRTB? If the answer's no, then it isn't registered...

Nope didn't get notice but each of our phone numbers and PPSNs were taken.

foggy_lad

Also the heaters do not meet the minimum requirement for rented accommodation! your best bet is to get out and find a place with proper heating.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,33422,en.pdf

omicron

Absolutely zero chance of finding a house to take students at this time of year where we are, and our deposit is significantly more than a months rent so if we wanted to break our lease and not lose money we'd need to stay here til mid February. What I'm really wondering is if theres any way of enforcing the heating requirements in that link, and if its reasonable to change the heating system from the one we thought was there when we signed the lease to a significantly more expensive and less useful one.

foggy_lad

You can open a complaint with the PRTB and force him to put fixed electric heaters into the rooms but they would need to be storage heaters to heat the rooms to an adequate level. but the PRTB are so slow you will be planning your summer holidays before there is any action.

omicron

foggy_lad wrote: »

You can open a complaint with the PRTB and force him to put fixed electric heaters into the rooms but they would need to be storage heaters to heat the rooms to an adequate level. but the PRTB are so slow you will be planning your summer holidays before there is any action.

And it wouldn't change the cost issue as we don't have a night rate meter.

I'm also wondering will the house be able to be rented out without proper central heating? As in is this just being put on the long finger until the next tenant moves in during the summer?

Doop

Tough situation, the landlord really is taking advantage, he was probably well aware of all this before ye moved in.

If it were me, id state to the landlord that while it is a requirement to have proper fixed heating in the house you are willing to be flexible and agree a slight rent reduction in light of the expected increased esb bills. You did not agree to rent a house that had no heating.

Your bathroom will still be cold. With regard to the mould are you venting the place (opening window) after showers etc?

foggy_lad

The ESB bills will be MASSIVE with electric heaters going most of the evening and night!

beauf

Leave. You'd be crazy to stay there. It will cost you a fortune, and be a complete distraction when you are studying.

The place is not as described if it was advertised having gas and there isn't any.

hedzball

foggy_lad wrote: »

The ESB bills will be MASSIVE with electric heaters going most of the evening and night!

I don't get this..

if used appropriately and correctly electric heating works out the same as oil/gas heating..


Its just a 4-5-6 months of extra bill compared to 1000e of oil in the tank at the end of the year..

The_Conductor

8k for a new gas condenser boiler, its installation, and plumbing for radiators- is actually a bit of a bargain- I was just quoted 10k to retrofit a new gas boiler into a pre-existing system (admittedly it was a decent Gloworm system- not a piece of crap).

You could point out to the landlord that the purchase and installation of the new heating system is an allowable expense for tax purposes- he can write it off over a number of years- reducing the tax on his rental income.

I wouldn't get upset over the lack of PRTB notice- receipt of them seems to be a bit of a lottery. You can check out their website if you're bored.

You do need heat- and I wouldn't be satisfied with the option offered thus far. I also don't believe the landlord did this in bad faith- why would he pay to have the gas reconnected if he knew the boiler was knackered, it would be a complete and utter waste of both your and his time and money.

Look into the options- and point out to him that its tax deductible- this may be sufficient to swing it, expensive though it is.

fash

The landlord broke the lease by failing to provide the minimum legal standard. You will get your deposit back if you go to prtb. If you have not put it in writing to your landlord to fix the heatng do so now. Start looking for a new place. If repair is not started before Christmas, leave and commence prtb proceedings. If you can't find a new place, stay and take prtb proceedings.

omicron

Doop wrote: »

Tough situation, the landlord really is taking advantage, he was probably well aware of all this before ye moved in.

If it were me, id state to the landlord that while it is a requirement to have proper fixed heating in the house you are willing to be flexible and agree a slight rent reduction in light of the expected increased esb bills. You did not agree to rent a house that had no heating.

Your bathroom will still be cold. With regard to the mould are you venting the place (opening window) after showers etc?

Thats pretty much what we have done now - accepted it as a short term measure while we're doing exams and said we're not happy with the cost.

Window is open in the bathroom during and after every shower, hav been making sure of that. Have had a fan heater in it a few times as well but its not sfae or practical really.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The ESB bills will be MASSIVE with electric heaters going most of the evening and night!

We won't be leaving it on that long either way, just enough to make it bearable.

beauf wrote: »

Leave. You'd be crazy to stay there. It will cost you a fortune, and be a complete distraction when you are studying.

The place is not as described if it was advertised having gas and there isn't any.

Leaving, trying to get a deposit back, trying to find a house that takes students in January, trying to get a 6 month lease etc would be an awful lot of hassle as well though.

hedzball wrote: »

I don't get this..

if used appropriately and correctly electric heating works out the same as oil/gas heating..


Its just a 4-5-6 months of extra bill compared to 1000e of oil in the tank at the end of the year..

Its not as cheap as gas, it is more efficient in terms of total energy usage but the cost of a kw/hr of electricity is three ties that of gas.

The_Conductor wrote: »

8k for a new gas condenser boiler, its installation, and plumbing for radiators- is actually a bit of a bargain- I was just quoted 10k to retrofit a new gas boiler into a pre-existing system (admittedly it was a decent Gloworm system- not a piece of crap).

You could point out to the landlord that the purchase and installation of the new heating system is an allowable expense for tax purposes- he can write it off over a number of years- reducing the tax on his rental income.

I wouldn't get upset over the lack of PRTB notice- receipt of them seems to be a bit of a lottery. You can check out their website if you're bored.

You do need heat- and I wouldn't be satisfied with the option offered thus far. I also don't believe the landlord did this in bad faith- why would he pay to have the gas reconnected if he knew the boiler was knackered, it would be a complete and utter waste of both your and his time and money.

Look into the options- and point out to him that its tax deductible- this may be sufficient to swing it, expensive though it is.

That might do it alright as I assume the tax is being paid at the top rate if being paid at all give the landlord has another rental house and a job as well.

fash wrote: »

The landlord broke the lease by failing to provide the minimum legal standard. You will get your deposit back if you go to prtb. If you have not put it in writing to your landlord to fix the heatng do so now. Start looking for a new place. If repair is not started before Christmas, leave and commence prtb proceedings. If you can't find a new place, stay and take prtb proceedings.

Haven't put anything in writing other than a text yet.

Don't think we'll be able to find another place to be honest, will have to look into the PRTB so, thanks.

djimi

Rather than go to the PRTB, could you go to the council and ask them to carry out an inspection of the property to see that it meets minimum standards? This is part of their responsibility is it not?

You need to put pressure on your landlord, real pressure. Do not accept those heaters as anything other than a very short term solution; they are not legal minumum standard and as tenants you have a right to expect better. As it stands your landlord is trying to rent you a property that would be deemed to be illegal.

Mrs OBumble

foggy_lad wrote: »

The ESB bills will be MASSIVE with electric heaters going most of the evening and night!

Nonsense.

You need five heaters, not four. One for each bedroom, and one for the living room. And they need to have timer switches, so you can program them to come on 20 minutes before you get up in the morning.

Then you just use them when you are actually at home and up in the evening / night: as you are students, I expect that you'll be spending a good bit of this time in the college library, so won't need the house heated all evening. Make sure you have decent duvets so you don't need the heating on overnight.

Re heating the bathroom- - grow a pair! To fix the mold, just make sure it's well ventilated. That means opening the window for 20 mins after you have a shower, or leaving the fan running for a good while if there is no window.


Thank your lucky stars that this is a mild winter, and that you can get away with the approach above for this year. Plan to move to a different house next year, and don't ever be dumb enough to sign up for a house with a major system not working (heatling, lighting, cooking, plumbing, clothes-washing).

Yes, the LL is a scummer, and probably knew about the boiler being shot long before you (and the last tenants) moved in. But if you cannot find alternative accommodation, then you'll just have to make the best of it.

omicron

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nonsense.

You need five heaters, not four. One for each bedroom, and one for the living room. And they need to have timer switches, so you can program them to come on 20 minutes before you get up in the morning.

Then you just use them when you are actually at home and up in the evening / night: as you are students, I expect that you'll be spending a good bit of this time in the college library, so won't need the house heated all evening. Make sure you have decent duvets so you don't need the heating on overnight.

Re heating the bathroom- - grow a pair! To fix the mold, just make sure it's well ventilated. That means opening the window for 20 mins after you have a shower, or leaving the fan running for a good while if there is no window.


Thank your lucky stars that this is a mild winter, and that you can get away with the approach above for this year. Plan to move to a different house next year, and don't ever be dumb enough to sign up for a house with a major system not working (heatling, lighting, cooking, plumbing, clothes-washing).

Yes, the LL is a scummer, and probably knew about the boiler being shot long before you (and the last tenants) moved in. But if you cannot find alternative accommodation, then you'll just have to make the best of it.

We know that the heaters are adequate however they're not what we signed up for when we signed a lease on the house. We're paying crazy rent money for the place, having the central heating that was advertised should be a part of that. We shouldn't have to pay 3 times more to heat the house than the gas central heating that was advertised.
We leave the window open during and after every shower for a few hours, there is no fan, yet we are getting mould. Without heating we can't do anything about it, yet it is the tenants responsibility to prevent mould.

We spend as little time in the house as possible, yes we spend a lot of time in the library, yes we wear extra clothes and have thick duvets but the house is damp and cold and winter has barely started.

Yeah it's grand that its a ''mild winter'' but there are 4 months of potentially freezing weather left in it. If it stayed like this til April we'd be fine but realistically its not going to be this mild, and we'd like to have central heating before it gets really cold. Thats why we want it sorted now. Also we won't be in the house for a few weeks at Christmas so ideally it would be sorted then.

djimi

The reality you face is that ultimately your options are get the problems sorted or move out. If the landlord is not willing to fix then you need to pursue them through the PRTB (or possibly the local council), but either way its going to be a drawn out process. If you are not prepared for that then your only option is to find alternative accomodation, difficult as that may be (Im sure you could find rooms somewhere after Christmas?). The house that you live in is not currently habitable by legal standards, so its up to you whether or not you wish to continue living in it while facing a drawn out battle to get the issues sorted, or to move out and find somewhere more suitable.

murphaph

hedzball wrote: »

I don't get this..

if used appropriately and correctly electric heating works out the same as oil/gas heating..


Its just a 4-5-6 months of extra bill compared to 1000e of oil in the tank at the end of the year..

Not the same. Storage heaters might work out the same as you have a night rate meter. Normal portable electric oil filled heaters cost a fortune to run (there'll be no night rate meter and even if there was you'd only be able to heat at night for the lower rate!).

In short, the landlord is a gangster.

I think the OP needs to threaten the PRTB at least. It is unacceptable to expect tenants to heat a property using such heaters. The rent would have to be reduced significantly to cover the extra costs.

I'm a landlord and wouldn't dream of expecting my tenants to heat the property this way.

djimi

In terms of cost, we use an oil filled plug in heater in our living room and it reduced the cost of our electric bill from the winter before when we used the storage heater in the living room. That said, we dont have a big living room, our place isnt particularly cold even when its freezing outside, and we are happy enough to sit under a duvet in winter while watching TV anyway, so the heater is only on for maybe a hour or two at most each night. If you had four of those things running, especially in a student house where they might be going quite a bit in each room, then Id imagine the costs would rack up pretty quickly.

beauf

omicron wrote: »

...Thats why we want it sorted now. Also we won't be in the house for a few weeks at Christmas so ideally it would be sorted then.

You're not being realistic. First of all the LL has to have or get the money. Contractors these days will want a lot of money upfront. Then you have to get a few quotes. Then find someone that can do. You might be weeks even a month or so finding someone who is willing to schedule it. Assuming that they even turn up on time. A lot of people won't be working over xmas, than then over winter plumbers and heating people tend to be their busiest. Thats if the LL agrees to it and starts the ball rolling now. Its just not realistic. The LL might not even have the money.

omicron

Have gotten on to the landlord anyway now to let him know that we're not happy with it long term, so I'll wait for a response there before doing anything else about it. Thanks for the advice!

Ray Palmer

I am mostly surprised at the quotes of a new gas boiler costing 8K. I got a condensing boiler installed for €2k 2 years ago. For 8k I would be expecting a complete replacement of the system and that sound expensive still.

I think I got a quote to replace all the pipes downstairs for about 1.5-2k and that was putting them in the walls so was more expensive.

Anyway OP. If he doesn't have the money he can't do it. I would ask him to reduce the rent or let you out of the lease as he is not providing what was agreed. As the heating will cost more to run the rent should be reduced but not I would not expect it to cover the full difference.

omicron

beauf wrote: »

You're not being realistic. First of all the LL has to have or get the money. Contractors these days will want a lot of money upfront. Then you have to get a few quotes. Then find someone that can do. You might be weeks even a month or so finding someone who is willing to schedule it. Assuming that they even turn up on time. A lot of people won't be working over xmas, than then over winter plumbers and heating people tend to be their busiest. Thats if the LL agrees to it and starts the ball rolling now. Its just not realistic. The LL might not even have the money.

I don't know much bout the landlords finances but I'd imagine given the rent we're paying and what I know about the other rental properties the landlord has that it's more a case of not wanting to spend it that not having it.

We won't be in the house until the 4th week of January once our exams finish next week, which I would have thought would be a reasonable length of time to get it started given that he's known the boiler wasn't repairable for nearly 3 weeks now.

omicron

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I am mostly surprised at the quotes of a new gas boiler costing 8K. I got a condensing boiler installed for €2k 2 years ago. For 8k I would be expecting a complete replacement of the system and that sound expensive still.

I think I got a quote to replace all the pipes downstairs for about 1.5-2k and that was putting them in the walls so was more expensive.

Anyway OP. If he doesn't have the money he can't do it. I would ask him to reduce the rent or let you out of the lease as he is not providing what was agreed. As the heating will cost more to run the rent should be reduced but not I would not expect it to cover the full difference.

That is for a complete replacement of the system. It's currently forced air but the landlord originally said that it would be replaced with radiators if the boiler couldn't be fixed. He then went back on that and said 4 portable electric heaters would do instead.