The Invincibles vs The Treble Winners

Richard Hillman

Good question. If it was a game of the 2 of them against each other my first reaction would be to say Arsenal but you could never write off that United team. In a one off match I would say United on peno's. But that wouldnt mean anything in terms of the better team.

homerjay2005

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Good question. If it was a game of the 2 of them against each other my first reaction would be to say Arsenal but you could never write off that United team. In a one off match I would say United on peno's. But that wouldnt mean anything in terms of the better team.

in that 2004 season, united and Arsenal played each other 3 times and Arsenal won none (1-0 United in FA Cup, 0-0 and 1-1). this was a poor enough United team at the time too.

the following season United beat Arsenal 4-2, 2-0 in the league, as well as 1-0 in league cup. fa cup final was 0-0 in a game united should have won about 6-0.

so, around the height of the invincible s, there was 7 games played and Arsenal couldnt beat United once.

by contrast, Arsenal only won one game against united from 99/00 seasons, out of 5 games (2 United wins, 2 draws). Arsenal were reigning double champions.....

so, out of 12 games between them in this period, United won 6, Arsenal won 1 , 5 draws with Arsenal winning one of those draws on pens.

i think its safe to say that no matter what this is looked at, the stats all favour United.

Spanish Johnny

homerjay2005 wrote: »

in that 2004 season, united and Arsenal played each other 3 times and Arsenal won none (1-0 United in FA Cup, 0-0 and 1-1). this was a poor enough United team at the time too.

the following season United beat Arsenal 4-2, 2-0 in the league, as well as 1-0 in league cup. fa cup final was 0-0 in a game united should have won about 6-0.

so, around the height of the invincible s, there was 7 games played and Arsenal couldnt beat United once.

by contrast, Arsenal only won one game against united from 99/00 seasons, out of 5 games (2 United wins, 2 draws). Arsenal were reigning double champions.....

so, out of 12 games between them in this period, United won 6, Arsenal won 1 , 5 draws with Arsenal winning one of those draws on pens.

i think its safe to say that no matter what this is looked at, the stats all favour United.

Superb! Now can show me the game where the 04 team played the 99 one??:rolleyes:

IvySlayer

2ndcoming wrote: »

Cups are cups to be fair, anything can happen. By your logic Liverpool in 01 and Arsenal in 93 were better than the Invincibles too.

OK, winning the Champions League, League and the FA Cup > Going unbeaten in one competition.

Arsenal crashed out in semi finals and quarter finals in other competitions, United got through them and won 2 finals.

Spanish Johnny

bucketybuck wrote: »

But as has already been pointed out, the United treble team went 45 games unbeaten...

Yes a wonderful feat. However these runs are defined by the season in which they are achieved in fairness with regards to preparation, pressure to do it, mentality etc.

Arsenal have the most PL points in 2013 of any team. We can hardly claim that United hand over the League trophy on that basis can we?

niallo27

I cant believe how much people are playing how much of an achievement it is to go though the whole league season without getting beaten. We are lucky to still have an unbeaten team after 10 or so games these days.

The_Kew_Tour

So going a season unbeaten and not winning a league would be more impressive then winning a treble if it happened?

Ok.....

niallo27

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

So going a season unbeaten and not winning a league would be more impressive then winning a treble if it happened?

Ok.....

I dont think anyone is saying that but people seem to be making little of what arsenal did.

The_Kew_Tour

niallo27 wrote: »

I dont think anyone is saying that but people seem to be making little of what arsenal did.

United achievement is far better. Proof is in the pudding

For every Arsenal Ace Card, United can top it.

No one really has said anything to down play Arsenal, but Trophies count. Full Stop.

If this was other way around we be laughed out of boards(and rightly so)

United went through Europe unbeaten

niallo27

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

United achievement is far better. Proof is in the pudding

For every Arsenal Ace Card, United can top it.

No one really has said anything to down play Arsenal, but Trophies count. Full Stop.

If this was other way around we be laughed out of boards(and rightly so)

I dont think so, if utd won the league unbeaten all season it would be some achievment. I agree winning the treble was a bigger achievement but not as much as people are saying on here.

Spanish Johnny

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

United achievement is far better. Proof is in the pudding

For every Arsenal Ace Card, United can top it.

No one really has said anything to down play Arsenal, but Trophies count. Full Stop.

If this was other way around we be laughed out of boards(and rightly so)

United went through Europe unbeaten

Treble achievement was better. Very little argument about that to be fair. The main argument from the outset was regarding a better team overall and given they played 5 years apart made it a worthy debate.

However this was arrogantly dismissed by many with silly irrelevant arguments. That's what many have taken issue with and have tried to have the debate on these merits but many seem incapable of that.

The_Kew_Tour

niallo27 wrote: »

I dont think so, if utd won the league unbeaten all season it would be some achievment. I agree winning the treble was a bigger achievement but not as much as people are saying on here.

But thats what majority in Treble side are saying. I think people making big deal out of nothing.

I mean what Arsenal did was super, but its not a comparision of winning a treble.

They can be as close as they like, but any Arsenal fan that tells me he rather his invincibles over a treble is a liar I dont care what they say.

Treble EVERY......Time

Spanish Johnny

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But thats what majority in Treble side are saying. I think people making big deal out of nothing.

I mean what Arsenal did was super, but its not a comparision of winning a treble.

They can be as close as they like, but any Arsenal fan that tells me he rather his invincibles over a treble is a liar I dont care what they say.

Treble EVERY......Time

As an Arsenal fan I would take the Treble everytime!! Agreed! Achievement wise no argument. Better team, players, etc = great and valid argument!

Do you at least accept that??

The_Kew_Tour

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

Treble achievement was better. Very little argument about that to be fair. The main argument from the outset was regarding a better team overall and given they played 5 years apart made it a worthy debate.

However this was arrogantly dismissed by many with silly irrelevant arguments. That's what many have taken issue with and have tried to have the debate on these merits but many seem incapable of that.

But even going on that debate United still win. Remained unbeaten in 9 games from Inter, Juve, Barca and Bayern..9 Games!!

Chelsea 04 team would not topple any of them.

Compare who we played and beat in Europe compared to Arsenal.

Compare the Cup Run.

United beat Arsenal in Cup in 99 and 04.

Arsenal were great side. I have praised arsenal upteen times at this stage, more then any Arsenal fan giving credit other way.

United v Arsenal games was the Real rivalry in the Pl for majority of United fans.

5 years apart or not the teams United beat were of higher standard over all.

We can go through it game by game if that what it takes:)

The_Kew_Tour

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

As an Arsenal fan I would take the Treble everytime!! Agreed! Achievement wise no argument. Better team, players, etc = great and valid argument!

Do you at least accept that??

Fair enough I accept:)

Spanish Johnny

homerjay2005 wrote: »

in that 2004 season, united and Arsenal played each other 3 times and Arsenal won none (1-0 United in FA Cup, 0-0 and 1-1). this was a poor enough United team at the time too.

the following season United beat Arsenal 4-2, 2-0 in the league, as well as 1-0 in league cup. fa cup final was 0-0 in a game united should have won about 6-0.

so, around the height of the invincible s, there was 7 games played and Arsenal couldnt beat United once.

by contrast, Arsenal only won one game against united from 99/00 seasons, out of 5 games (2 United wins, 2 draws). Arsenal were reigning double champions.....

so, out of 12 games between them in this period, United won 6, Arsenal won 1 , 5 draws with Arsenal winning one of those draws on pens.

i think its safe to say that no matter what this is looked at, the stats all favour United.

Ah yes the old selective spin.

1) Between 97/98 season and 99/00 in the League United had 1 victory in 6 against Arsenal. A settled treble winning team at the heart of all those games winning 1/6.

2) It was trotted out earlier the old guff that the Arsenal team didnt have the mental strength United had. I would argue that 2005 FA Cup Final disproves that silly argument. Played badly and hung in and won it. Now just imagine for a second if it was United in that position?? We'd be hearing 'oh that United team of 99 pulled off a victory against the odds because they were special, mentally, tough and great character'. And they would be right. That Arsenal 04/05 were made of the same stuff.

3) Don't lower your argument to the rubbish of 'we lost on penalties but should have won 6-0' A good team takes its chances like United did in 99.

That's the equivalent of me belittling United's 99 achievement by going on about the missed penalty in the FA Cup. United won that game because they deserved too.

Same applies to Terry's missed penalty in CL. Don't go down that route it does your argument no favours.

Spanish Johnny

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Fair enough I accept:)

Fair play. If Arsenal were to replicate a treble I think it would be the ultimate achievement but I don't think we will ever see it's like again.

The_Kew_Tour

Spanish Johnny wrote: »

Fair play. If Arsenal were to replicate a treble I think it would be the ultimate achievement but I don't think we will ever see it's like again.

I dont think you can ever say never.

I think it will happen again. Just a matter of when. Could be years away.

The great Liverpool teams in 70-80's cam close once or twice.

While I have considered the league the main goal every year winning CL can put the icing on the cake. Its a bit of lottery to win it at times although best teams have won it too.

The Arsenal team from 2002 to 2006 deserved a CL in there somewhere. I would not begrudge Arsenal winning one.

As things stand its they are the best(biggest) team not to have won it.

Spanish Johnny

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I dont think you can never say never.

I think it will happen again. Just a matter of when. Could be years away.

The great Liverpool teams in 70-80's cam close once or twice.

While I have considered the league the main goal every year winning CL can put the icing on the cake. Its a bit of lottery to win it at times although best teams have won it too.

The Arsenal team from 2002 to 2006 deserved a CL in there somewhere. I would not begrudge Arsenal winning one.

As things stand its they are the best(biggest) team not to have won it.

Yes and I think 04 was a bigger missed opportunity than 06 despite Lehmann's sending off.

That said people tend to say it was only Chelsea but they did finish second in the League that year and were League Champions a year later but we were much better at the time and it will be forever frustrating!

FatherTed

The two first XI are close but it's the total squad that easily swings it in Man Utd's favour. Sheringham(scored in the FA Cup and CL finals), Solskjaer(CL winning goal), Butt(CL final MotM), even the likes of Phil Neville and Blomqvist played big parts. After that Arsenal FA Cup Semi replay and THAT goal, Giggs was out for a month and Blomqvist essentially replaced him.

Also, remember that Man Utd had a really tough group in the CL with Bayern(who got to the final as we all know) and Barca who were a great team with the likes of Rivaldo, Figo, and a certain young Xavi Hernandez. Beat Inter and Juve on the way to the final.

FA Cup was no picnic either facing Liverpool with the epic comeback that started it all, and also beating Chelsea and Arsenal on the way to the final.

Meanwhile, the invincibles were knocked out of the CL at the quarter final stage and by Middlesbrough in the FA Cup.

larchielads

ok so who's better the Juventus invincibles 11/12 or the inter milan treble winning team under mourinho 09/10

juve p38 w23 d15 L0 league champions

inter p38 w24 d10 L4 league champions,copa itallia, european cup.

for me its inter everyday of the week

utd put an end to arsenals unbeaten run at 49 and guess who put an end to juves unbeaten run at 49 aswel yes you guessed it......... inter

and dont even get me started on comparing teams inter by far
lets not forget who inter beat on the way to winning the champs league beating chelsea barca and bayern

so yeah for me its gotta be the treble winners look at the comparisons in 2 of the top 3 leagues at the time england spain italy were the easily the best leagues german football not til bayern won it and dortmund scared a few good teams after bayern.

Will I Amnt

Another example of why all soccer forum polls should be made public.
I'd put my house on it that somebody has given their choice on thread and voted the opposite in the poll.

LiamoSail

larchielads wrote: »

ok so who's better the Juventus invincibles 11/12 or the inter milan treble winning team under mourinho 09/10

juve p38 w23 d15 L0 league champions

inter p38 w24 d10 L4 league champions,copa itallia, european cup.

for me its inter everyday of the week

utd put an end to arsenals unbeaten run at 49 and guess who put an end to juves unbeaten run at 49 aswel yes you guessed it......... inter

and dont even get me started on comparing teams inter by far
lets not forget who inter beat on the way to winning the champs league beating chelsea barca and bayern

so yeah for me its gotta be the treble winners look at the comparisons in 2 of the top 3 leagues at the time england spain italy were the easily the best leagues german football not til bayern won it and dortmund scared a few good teams after bayern.

Not a big follower of Serie A, but I'll always take any juve achievement with a pinch of salt based on their record

larchielads

larchielads wrote: »

ok so who's better the Juventus invincibles 11/12 or the inter milan treble winning team under mourinho 09/10

juve p38 w23 d15 L0 league champions

inter p38 w24 d10 L4 league champions,copa itallia, european cup.

for me its inter everyday of the week

utd put an end to arsenals unbeaten run at 49 and guess who put an end to juves unbeaten run at 49 aswel yes you guessed it......... inter

and dont even get me started on comparing teams inter by far
lets not forget who inter beat on the way to winning the champs league beating chelsea barca and bayern

so yeah for me its gotta be the treble winners look at the comparisons in 2 of the top 3 leagues at the time england spain italy were the easily the best leagues german football not til bayern won it and dortmund scared a few good teams after bayern.

Surely a League, a Champions league and a cup is better than a League or have I gone mental.

It's an unreal achievement staying unbeaten but last time I checked you don't get a trophy for that.

joe123

I was looking forward to a decent debate on this, yet all we have are people jabbering on about 3 cups are better 1.

Classic boards unfortunately.

Will I Amnt

joe123 wrote: »

I was looking forward to a decent debate on this, yet all we have are people jabbering on about 3 cups are better 1.

Classic boards unfortunately.

But sometimes things are just more obvious and there's not much room for debate. 2 great teams, one clearly better than the other, that's just the way it is.
It's akin to a Messi v Özil thread.

LiamoSail

rarnes1 wrote: »

Surely a League, a Champions league and a cup is better than a League or have I gone mental.

It's an unreal achievement staying unbeaten but last time I checked you don't get a trophy for that.

Has anyone ever gone a season unbeaten in the league and not got a trophy for it?

Of the three I can remember, Ajax in the nineties (iirc), arsenal & juve, all won the title. I know its possible to remain unbeaten and not win the league, but has it ever happened in a major league?

Skylinehead

LiamoSail wrote: »

Has anyone ever gone a season unbeaten in the league and not got a trophy for it?

Of the three I can remember, Ajax in the nineties (iirc), arsenal & juve, all won the title. I know its possible to remain unbeaten and not win the league, but has it ever happened in a major league?

Benfica almost managed it last year, only to lose their second-last game to also-unbeaten Porto.

Oranage2

The treble was the bigger achievement for me.

Pretty evenly matched first teams but united had a much better squad.

premierstone

bucketybuck wrote: »

No, you are correct, they did lose the charity shield and Super Cup in that period. I guess then it comes down to whether you consider them "proper" competitions. Personally I don't consider the charity shield any different than a friendly, but on the other hand the Super cup is a more legitimate title.

The point in general still stands though. The Invincibles actually lost a lot of games the year they went "unbeaten", whereas the Treble side actually had a comparable run unbeaten in all competitions.

Both teams lost the exact same amount of games.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But thats what majority in Treble side are saying. I think people making big deal out of nothing.

I mean what Arsenal did was super, but its not a comparision of winning a treble.

They can be as close as they like, but any Arsenal fan that tells me he rather his invincibles over a treble is a liar I dont care what they say.

Treble EVERY......Time

Have you actually read the OP, no one has asked which was the better achievement, you were simply asked who did you think was the better team and would win a mythical match, surely you can actually understand the subtle difference or am I giving you too much credit?

The_Kew_Tour

premierstone wrote: »

Both teams lost the exact same amount of games.



Have you actually read the OP, no one has asked which was the better achievement, you were simply asked who did you think was the better team and would win a mythical match, surely you can actually understand the subtle difference or am I giving you too much credit?

United were better team. They won more trophies.they won more leagues CL and FA Cup.

simple really.

premierstone

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

simple really.

I agree 100% you are indeed.

The_Kew_Tour

premierstone wrote: »

I agree 100% you are indeed.

Why you think winning less trophies over a period of time means you are better team?


Sure you do