Bus use stopped by "Middle-class snobbishness"

foggy_lad

Jawgap wrote: »

I doubt you can and for a single traveller DB makes lot of sense.

What about parents, with two kids (one in a stroller)?

Parents, with two kids going to the cinema?

One parent, one kid on wet, sh1tty, Thursday afternoon to get a school uniform?


The problem - and the point missed by de minister - is that people who have choices (call them middle class, if you will) are not exercising those choices in favour of DB.

It's not just about cost - relative or absolute.

Indeed people with cars will use them instead of running the public transport gauntlet while the rest of us are left with a service that is ostensibly broken and which it seems is not policed in any way by staff, people are not forced to get off the bus if they refuse to move down the back or upstairs, middle doors are not used enough on buses and passengers are allowed dictate which door they use. Dublin Bus in particular need to reclaim their buses.

What ever happened to the bye-laws on boarding and behaviour on buses? they are ignored now when they should be rigorously enforced to improve things for everyone, both passengers and staff.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

And this just goes to show how broken and badly thought out Leap is.

A tourist has to go to some random Spar shop at Dublin Airport!! They can't buy it at the tourist information desk, nor the CIE desk!!! Which is where I'm sure most tourists would expect to buy such a card.

Tourists should also be able to return the card for a refund at these places.

There should also be a LEAP card machine by the bus stops at Dublin Airport. You should be able to buy a leap card, return one for a refund, check your balance and buy and load credit and tickets on this machine.

Such machines should also be placed at other convenient places through out the city, a couple of machines along O'Connell St, etc.

As far as availability goes, the fact it's available 24 hours a day from a (random??) shop 50 metres away isn't an issue even if it's not available at the most obvious place. It's a strange point to make. In any case how the Leap card returns are done is a big inconvenience right now but the situation is as bad if not worse in other countries (e.g. no deposit refund for the Navigo Découverte).

It is something that the NTA and CIE both need to look at but I don't think the cost of machines etc. is warranted just for Leap card use. It would be a substantial improvement if train stations and Dublin Bus head office could deal with balance refunds etc. I'm sure it's technically feasible and comes down to the NTA providing the facilities or mandating CIE and Transdev to provide such facilities.

There are far more serious usability problems with Leap that need to be addressed first, in particular the fare structure for cash and Leap customers.

Jawgap

MagicMarker wrote: »

Easily? I used to pay €2.65 into town and then back again. Where can you park in town for a whole day for less than €5.30?

Irish Life Centre - the underground carpark there charges a fiver to park all day Sunday :pac:

Corkbah

MagicMarker wrote: »

Easily? I used to pay €2.65 into town and then back again. Where can you park in town for a whole day for less than €5.30?

I can name multiple places - I travel in from Meath to Dublin every day and use my car because its more reliable to drive in than wait for a bus - bus timetable is inconsistent, prices are cheaper on the mortons bus compared to the Dublin Bus alternative (yes Dublin Bus operate a commuter bus - its one of those intercity buses),

train is more expensive but more reliable …however train is €12ish from Enfield, yet at the next stop in Maynooth its €3-ish …. both journeys are into Dublin with multiple stops on the way…but thats for another day.

Anyway - going back to the DB issue, they have multiple faults - the main one being that people have alternatives and as such are using them - more people are opting to cycle, walk etc mainly due to inconsistency/safety/and price of bus fares - how many years have they gone up - EVERY Year !! …how much profits are DB making ??

didn't the company recently say the strike was costing them €2Million a day - yet they post losses annually …where's that money going ?? Are bus drivers paid/pensioned correctly …what about the bosses in DB …. how many hundreds of thousands are they getting to justify the fare increases ?

for me …I avoid inner city public transport, I work in the inner city and if I need to get from A-B …I walk, I'm able to calculate the approximate time of arrival at destination with relative ease …unlike DB.

As for the claim that middle class people avoiding using the bus due to snobbery - just a ridiculous claim without any research/backup.

in my opinion DB is relatively unsafe (anyone who has taken a 2/3am nitelink home, or DB organised bus home after office hours can testify to have seen idiots misbehaving - not Dublin buses fault but they don't do anything to stop it or prevent it) …. having lived in Dublin for in excess of 20yrs, it has improved from the 1980s but then again the rest of the world has improved….DB just has not evolved fast enough to satisfy the right people …its customers !!

lucernarian

listermint wrote: »

Oh and forgot to add, I didnt bother due to the complexity involved. Its incredibly non-user orientated. I can only imagine how folks not 100% comfortable with the internet fare with it.

Is it honestly complicated to walk into any one of hundreds of newsagents in Dublin, or a train station or Dublin Bus head office to pay €10 in cash to get a Leap card with credit on it?

The fact that the internet payment procedure is more or less a shambles doesn't mean it's difficult to get a Leap card in general.

Devilman40k

Corkbah wrote: »

Anyway - going back to the DB issue, they have multiple faults - the main one being that people have alternatives and as such are using them - more people are opting to cycle, walk etc mainly due to inconsistency/safety/and price of bus fares - how many years have they gone up - EVERY Year !! …how much profits are DB making ??

Considering the recent service cuts in Network Direct and the cost cutting plans the question is how much of a LOSS are they making

D

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not just about cost - relative or absolute.

+1

I use my car because it saves me 2 hours off my comute everyday.
Its a 30 minute drive to work (21.5km) = 1 hour commuting per day.

If I want to take the bus.
20 minute walk to the bus stop that actually has the bus i need. Have to arrive 10 minutes early, just in case.
Takes the bus an hour to get to my work.
= 3 hours commuting per day.

As for cost I average 5.3 L/100km so thats 1.1395 litres per trip
@ diesel €1.46/L = €1.66367 per trip
Or per day it cost €3.23 (rounding up)
This doesn't include tax, insurance, service etc.
Parking is free at home and work.

Larbre34

If not being impressed by any of screeching, fighting, abusiveness, intimidation, smoking, overcrowding, unreliablity, drivers leaving terminii early/late as they please, or some zombie dropping his trolleys on the tram to inject heroin into his groin is middle class snobbishness, Ill take it.

Kelly is a moron. Either he sets up a comprehensive Transport Security Service with real power, or a Garda unit with that remit or he can observe a further exodus from the dysfunctional public transport system.

adocholiday

I am lucky enough to have the option of bus or LUAS for getting to/from work every day. The LEAP card is brilliant for me because if I have a tax saver ticket for the bus or the luas (individually) I would only save 5-10 quid per month but cut off one of those modes of transport. If I get the joint Bus and LUAS ticket it costs substantially more than what I currently pay with the LEAP card. Its a great service and is certainly a massive improvement over having correct change etc. Also I find the easiest way to top up is at a LUAS ticket terminal, although that's obviously not convenient for everyone.

With regard to the bus, I think a massive massive overhaul is needed. If I go get the bus to work I have to wait along the N11 and you can almost be guaranteed that a number of full buses will pass, meanwhile the crowd at my stop increases. This has a domino effect then on stops closer to town until UCD where usually the bus empties out considerably. Getting the bus between 8 and 9 in the morning is a nightmare

Snickers Man

coolemon wrote: »

That dosnt make sense.

On the contrary. Using the bus would be a useful way of getting rid of the coinage I already accumulate.

Or you could get rid of it as you top up your Leap Card, buy a paper, pint, sandwich or any other of the myriad small transactions you engaged in regularly. Your argument against the Leap card was that you already had too many cards and "couldn't be bothered" (your words) to get another one.

But given the "no-change" policy on buses nowadays, you would rather the inconvenience of maintaining a pocket full of coins, thereby reducing the dozens of opportunities of offloading this clinking cash just to prepare for the eventuality of catching a bus!!!

And as for the "hassle" acquring a Leap card: maybe it is, I can't remember how troublesome it was because you only have to do it once. Topping up thereafter is as difficult as buying phone credit. (less difficult actually because you don't have to phone in a voucher number)

There are many things wrong with the Leap Card. All of which could be, and hopefully will be, rectified by ongoing reform and development but to get rid of it just to bring back cash dependency in this day and age? Puhhlease!!!

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

It is something that the NTA and CIE both need to look at but I don't think the cost of machines etc. is warranted just for Leap card use.

Why, such machines already exist at all train and luas stations.

A couple strategically placed at very busy locations like Dublin Airport and O'Connell St seems perfectly reasonable and might help alleviate the many problems with LEAP on DB.

Also it should be relatively easy to have such machines and even modify the existing train and LUAS machines to take return cards and issue refunds.

It really isn't that complicated, if the machine can dispense a card, then it should be relatively easy for the machine to also take in a card, check it's balance and dispense a refund.

Seems like a relatively straight forward software update to me.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

It would be a substantial improvement if train stations and Dublin Bus head office could deal with balance refunds etc. I'm sure it's technically feasible and comes down to the NTA providing the facilities or mandating CIE and Transdev to provide such facilities.

Yes and also sell leap cards and allow them to be topped up at train station ticket offices. Again mad that you can't currently do this and again shows how badly thought out and implemented leap is.

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

There are far more serious usability problems with Leap that need to be addressed first, in particular the fare structure for cash and Leap customers.

Agreed and I wrote about these issues in my next post. However these relatively simple issues, which should be relatively easy to solve, just go to show how badly thought out, implemented and managed LEAP is.

lucernarian

Snickers Man wrote: »

Or you could get rid of it as you top up your Leap Card, buy a paper, pint, sandwich or any other of the myriad small transactions you engaged in regularly. Your argument against the Leap card was that you already had too many cards and "couldn't be bothered" (your words) to get another one.

But given the "no-change" policy on buses nowadays, you would rather the inconvenience of maintaining a pocket full of coins, thereby reducing the dozens of opportunities of offloading this clinking cash just to prepare for the eventuality of catching a bus!!!

And as for the "hassle" acquring a Leap card: maybe it is, I can't remember how troublesome it was because you only have to do it once. Topping up thereafter is as difficult as buying phone credit. (less difficult actually because you don't have to phone in a voucher number)

There are many things wrong with the Leap Card. All of which could be, and hopefully will be, rectified by ongoing reform and development but to get rid of it just to bring back cash dependency in this day and age? Puhhlease!!!

Well said! I walked one day into a shop and a minute later walked out with a topped-up card. I'd be far more pissed off if I lived outside Dublin to be honest given the limited use of Leap nationwide. E.g. in Louth the support of Leap on bus routes is quite inconsistent, with Route 100 between Dundalk and Drogheda only sometimes having leap-enabled Wayfarers. There's no way at all to use it in some parts of Ireland.

Cuddlesworth

I was a bus user for many years. I'm not sure when I snapped. Might have been the argument with the free fare junkie smoking heroin behind me. Might have been the 8:05 terminus bus driving past me as I walk out of my estate at 8:00 for the umpeenth time. Might have been the year on year fare increase for less and less service. The waiting in the wet and cold for considerable amounts of time in the evening because the stop layout favoured people with shorter journeys. Could have been the fact that if my journey wasn't to or from town then I was out of luck for any reasonable timeframe. Or the bus stopping every 200 yards for 1-3 minutes.

Whatever it was, I will never use Dublin bus ever again. I'm a middle clase snob who will walk, drive or cycle there. And yet, if I'm in Berlin or Barcelona or London I'll hop onto a bus there no problem.

serfboard

It's not in the report, but I wonder if Harry McGee asked the Minister of State if he uses the bus every day to get to work?

Cienciano

I wouldn't dream of getting a bus to town for shopping. I'd drive to a shopping mall instead.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I was a bus user for many years. I'm not sure when I snapped. Might have been the argument with the free fare junkie smoking heroin behind me. Might have been the 8:05 terminus bus driving past me as I walk out of my estate at 8:00 for the umpeenth time. Might have been the year on year fare increase for less and less service. The waiting in the wet and cold for considerable amounts of time in the evening because the stop layout favoured people with shorter journeys. Could have been the fact that if my journey wasn't to or from town then I was out of luck for any reasonable timeframe. Or the bus stopping every 200 yards for 1-3 minutes.

Whatever it was, I will never use Dublin bus ever again. I'm a middle clase snob who will walk, drive or cycle there. And yet, if I'm in Berlin or Barcelona or London I'll hop onto a bus there no problem.

I think everyone who uses Dublin Bus or even Bus Eireann know exactly what you're talking about. Used to get the bus every day on lots of different commutes, not a hope I'd ever do it again.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

A couple strategically placed at very busy locations like Dublin Airport and O'Connell St seems perfectly reasonable and might help alleviate the many problems with LEAP on DB.

How will that help with the many problems involved with fare structure and difficulties in communicating this to customers? Or solve the problems of dwell times actually being increased by using Leap cards? Or the anti-social behaviour problems, the "imperfect" RTPI predictions at bus stops. Or indeed the antisocial behavour problems in the vicinity of bus stops on O'Connell St. Even having a refund facility at Dublin Bus head office would be a big help and at little extra cost.

Also it should be relatively easy to have such machines and even modify the existing train and LUAS machines to take return cards and issue refunds.

That is a fundamental change to the operation of those machines and would involve entirely new mechanisms as well as a separate input slot for such cards to be accommodated. I would want to see a very specific and costed plan if I were to believe it would be anything but an onerous and unnecessary expense on the RPA and Transdev.

It really isn't that complicated, if the machine can dispense a card, then it should be relatively easy for the machine to also take in a card, check it's balance and dispense a refund.

Given that Luas ticket machines dispense paper card tickets currently, how could they dispense Leap cards easily without major re-machining?

Agreed and I wrote about these issues in my next post. However these relatively simple issues, which should be relatively easy to solve, just go to show how badly thought out, implemented and managed LEAP is.

I found that a very harsh indictment as far as the user experience is concerned. Most of my problems with Leap come from an overall operational and revenue point of view, not so much for the individual user and I found that Leap would be a more pleasant experience for newbies and visitors to obtain and get refunds for than in other cities, especially Paris with the photo id requirement and the non-refundable €5 charge. The oyster card also requires a postal application anyway and you can't use it on the likes of Heathrow Express. The Airlink and some Bus Éireann services accept Leap card at no discount however, and hopefully Aircoach will sign up soon. The biggest problems for infrequent users of Dublin Bus stem more from the intrinsic problems with Dublin Bus: congestion, infrequent service, rude drivers and complicated single journey price.

jack presley

Snickers Man wrote: »

And as for the "hassle" acquring a Leap card: maybe it is, I can't remember how troublesome it was because you only have to do it once. Topping up thereafter is as difficult as buying phone credit.

At least you can top up your phone online and not have to go to the shop and get the credit added.

LXFlyer

jack presley wrote: »

At least you can top up your phone online and not have to go to the shop and get the credit added.

That's because the phone has a live connection to the network - the card needs to connect to a live terminal.

Sleepy

Only got a leap card recently as I'd be an infrequent user even though there's a bus stop 2 minutes from my front door into town. I hadn't actually realised that I couldn't continue to top-up my card on-line after my initial purchase without having to "collect" the credit from a machine. Seems pretty farcical tbh.

It's great for when I have to work in town or if I'm meeting someone for drinks etc. but would never use it with the full family unless we were going somewhere that's a 10 minute walk or less from O' Connell Street.

jack presley

lxflyer wrote: »

That's because the phone has a live connection to the network - the card needs to connect to a live terminal.

I know that. Why couldn't they insert a sim or something into the leap card instead of launching a half assed effort?

They had long enough to come up with a better method than what they have now. And please don't say it's the same as the Oyster card in London. Why can't we be leaders in a technology for once instead of being followers?

kenon

jack presley wrote: »

I know that. Why couldn't they insert a sim or something into the leap card instead of launching a half assed effort?

They had long enough to come up with a better method than what they have now. And please don't say it's the same as the Oyster card in London. Why can't we be leaders in a technology for once instead of being followers?

It would be excellent if they could use the link the WiFi connection uses that some of the buses have now to communicate with network to implement this.

lucernarian

jack presley wrote: »

I know that. Why couldn't they insert a sim or something into the leap card instead of launching a half assed effort?

They had long enough to come up with a better method than what they have now. And please don't say it's the same as the Oyster card in London. Why can't we be leaders in a technology for once instead of being followers?

This is madness. You're forgetting that a SIM would need a separate (chargeable) battery and a separate antenna for the phone networks built into the card which is now the size of a phone due to the battery, the NTA would have to pay for occasional data use from the mobile operator involved and the system's functioning would be based on the reliability and coverage of the mobile operator.

You have to pay for a special device to top up a Navigo Passe in Paris from the comfort of your home.

Where the NTA could offer real leadership is in taking advantage of new smartphones with Near Field Communication abilities by providing an app that can handle the security protocols etc and allow for a download of Leap card credit.

Jawgap

......or allow the use of the contactless payment cards.

Incidentally, with all the comparisons with Oyster, how come you can't just touch on with a LEAP - why did they set it up so you have to deal with the driver?

I suspect the hand of the unions in that decision

hawkwind23

we often wanted to go into town as a couple on the bus , bit of shopping and the option for a few pints.
save on the parking and the traffic.
but its more expensive than taking the car and using a car park!! thats mental and not the aim of public transport!

im in belfast now and same similar service is so much cheaper.
and its a simpler fare structure.

£1.10 for a journey anywhere so £2.20 return

if you want to travel all day anywhere its £3.60 for unlimited use.

thats seems about right for a bus fare to me , not €14 for a couple to nip into town

Mrs OBumble

For all that, I actually think the man has a point. Snobbishness isn't the whole story, but it's part of it.

Since I moved to Ireland, I've never owned a car: I like in the innter city so the cost of a year's parking + insurance would be greater than the cost of renting a car every 2nd or 3rd weekend and taking the occasional taxi. Not to mention petrol, maintenance, car-tax, and the added stress of having to find parking.

Most middle-class Irish people think I'm totally crazy. I can see it in their eyes when they hear my reasonaing. Intellectually they can understand the economic argument. But emotionally they cannot understand why I would voluntary choose to get the bus along with all the old, young, poor, disabled and eccentric people. I see the totally uncomprehending look when they ask how I'm getting home and I look at my watch and say "Oh, the chauffer will be leaving in 5 mintues".

Now, it has changed a little in the years I've been here. Public transport has become more cool, just like shopping in Lidl/Aldi (when I first arrived, virtually all the staff and other customers were foreign - it's changed a lot now). There are some incredibly well run services (GoBus and CityLink, take a bow) that are pretty well accepted and used by a broader range of people. But there is still a subtle looking-down-on thing that goes on.

dd972

Not sure if it's snobbery, I can think of sights and experiences I've had on buses in Dublin that I could have done without and it's a no-brainer that I'd rather have been sat in a car.

It's like saying people who can afford to live in Booterstown are there just because they're too snobbish to live in East Wall, the whole philosophy of capitalism is to buy your way out of the s**t or be lucky enough to be born wealthy so you never have to experience it.

lucernarian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

For all that, I actually think the man has a point. Snobbishness isn't the whole story, but it's part of it.

Since I moved to Ireland, I've never owned a car: I like in the innter city so the cost of a year's parking + insurance would be greater than the cost of renting a car every 2nd or 3rd weekend and taking the occasional taxi. Not to mention petrol, maintenance, car-tax, and the added stress of having to find parking.

Most middle-class Irish people think I'm totally crazy. I can see it in their eyes when they hear my reasonaing. Intellectually they can understand the economic argument. But emotionally they cannot understand why I would voluntary choose to get the bus along with all the old, young, poor, disabled and eccentric people. I see the totally uncomprehending look when they ask how I'm getting home and I look at my watch and say "Oh, the chauffer will be leaving in 5 mintues".

Now, it has changed a little in the years I've been here. Public transport has become more cool, just like shopping in Lidl/Aldi (when I first arrived, virtually all the staff and other customers were foreign - it's changed a lot now). There are some incredibly well run services (GoBus and CityLink, take a bow) that are pretty well accepted and used by a broader range of people. But there is still a subtle looking-down-on thing that goes on.

I think it was a poorly-made comment by the minister in question but I've gotten the same reaction from some friends of mine when a trip to Rathmines in Dublin 6 was being planned recently.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

That's because the phone has a live connection to the network - the card needs to connect to a live terminal.

And again it is no problem for buses in Atlanta for the past 8 years!

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Where the NTA could offer real leadership is in taking advantage of new smartphones with Near Field Communication abilities by providing an app that can handle the security protocols etc and allow for a download of Leap card credit.

Another solution is to allow contacless debit cards to be used, like is currently being rolled out in London.

No need to top up, it just takes the money from your current account, no different then any other debit transaction.

Almost all AIB and Bank Of Ireland customers now have these contactless debit cards, so they are pretty widespread by now.

Jawgap

bk wrote: »

Another solution is to allow contacless debit cards to be used, like is currently being rolled out in London.

No need to top up, it just takes the money from your current account, no different then any other debit transaction.

Almost all AIB and Bank Of Ireland customers now have these contactless debit cards, so they are pretty widespread by now.

Except the service provider doesn't get the money in advance if you use debit cards

When put credit on your LEAP the service provider can let your money 'rest' in their account before passing it on to the transport operator when you use the service.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

Another solution is to allow contacless debit cards to be used, like is currently being rolled out in London.

No need to top up, it just takes the money from your current account, no different then any other debit transaction.

Almost all AIB and Bank Of Ireland customers now have these contactless debit cards, so they are pretty widespread by now.

Would the existing ticket infrastructure need to be completely changed to allow this in Ireland (specifically on buses?) E.g. an internet connection would have to be established to allow the deducting of money away from account balances.

In any case I intentionally opted out of the contactless AIB debit card out of personal security concerns but again, there is plenty of room for improvement with Leap card use before they need to turn to increasingly costly methods to enhance the user experience in specific situations.

jacko1

He's spot on - the census figures from 2011 show lower bus usage in middle class dublin - 60% of workers in Dublin South drive to work despite widespread public transport availability - figure is lower in working class constituecies.

jacko1

serfboard wrote: »

It's not in the report, but I wonder if Harry McGee asked the Minister of State if he uses the bus every day to get to work?

In fairness I've seen him on the Dublin/Cork train quite a bit

foggy_lad

Jawgap wrote: »

Incidentally, with all the comparisons with Oyster, how come you can't just touch on with a LEAP - why did they set it up so you have to deal with the driver?

The fare structure works against this at every opportunity and at this stage that won't change as it would mean too big a hit for the cash strapped companies to take.

Jawgap

jacko1 wrote: »

In fairness I've seen him on the Dublin/Cork train quite a bit

First or standard class?

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Would the existing ticket infrastructure need to be completely changed to allow this in Ireland (specifically on buses?) E.g. an internet connection would have to be established to allow the deducting of money away from account balances.

In any case I intentionally opted out of the contactless AIB debit card out of personal security concerns but again, there is plenty of room for improvement with Leap card use before they need to turn to increasingly costly methods to enhance the user experience in specific situations.

How do taxis manage?

Also couldn't you just record the transactions and bulk process them overnight?

LeinsterDub

jacko1 wrote: »

He's spot on - the census figures from 2011 show lower bus usage in middle class dublin - 60% of workers in Dublin South drive to work despite widespread public transport availability - figure is lower in working class constituecies.

Does that factor in that workers in Dublin South would be more likely to work in places with free parking than lower class workers? So few journeys are quicker by bus , the cost of Parking for most is the main issue

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Would the existing ticket infrastructure need to be completely changed to allow this in Ireland (specifically on buses?) E.g. an internet connection would have to be established to allow the deducting of money away from account balances.

Well I would hope not, LEAP was introduced at about the same time that contactless debit cards were and had already been introduced on public transport in other countries. So I would hope that they planned ahead.

Low value transactions on debit cards don't require an internet connection (even in a shop) for speed reasons, so it should be possible to do it with the existing ticket machines *

* This is assuming the ticket machines can handle the extra code, which given the performance of Leap on these machines, I would question.

Either way I believe the DB ticket machines need to be replaced anyway, they just aren't powerful enough to handle leap and all the future requirements that will be put on them.

strangel00p

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I was a bus user for many years. I'm not sure when I snapped. Might have been the argument with the free fare junkie smoking heroin behind me. Might have been the 8:05 terminus bus driving past me as I walk out of my estate at 8:00 for the umpeenth time. Might have been the year on year fare increase for less and less service. The waiting in the wet and cold for considerable amounts of time in the evening because the stop layout favoured people with shorter journeys. Could have been the fact that if my journey wasn't to or from town then I was out of luck for any reasonable timeframe. Or the bus stopping every 200 yards for 1-3 minutes.

Whatever it was, I will never use Dublin bus ever again. I'm a middle clase snob who will walk, drive or cycle there. And yet, if I'm in Berlin or Barcelona or London I'll hop onto a bus there no problem.

Agreed, ditched public transport exactly one year ago. Bought a bike on the bike to work scheme(which has easily paid for itself) and cycled 10km to work each day. Best thing I ever did, my only regret is not doing it years ago. I've saved at least €1200 on bus/train fares - if money is tight, get a bike!

Frank Black

I worked with a girl a few years ago (from the Southside). One lunchtime she was complaining about the traffic going in and out of work. I innocently suggested that she try getting the bus as it might be quicker.
She looked at me like I had two heads and said "What? With all the smelly people?".

SpaceTime

I've tried using the busses in Cork a few times and I just gave up due to complete lack of reliability on some routes.

Like for example, I remember coming in from Western Road (UCC Western Gateway) and you'd regularly have issues like buses not crossing the city centre due to traffic, being really late, the displays on the bus stops not working or not displaying accurate arrival information.

On a cold, wet day, what's the point in that?

Once bitten, twice shy. If the service is unreliable, people won't use it. Life's too short to spend it waiting on phantom busses and being rained on.

It's a vicious circle too. The bad service results in poor demand which results in a worse service as the company concludes there's no demand.

I've used bus services in continental cities similar of size to Cork and the difference is like night and day. The Cork busses are nice and new and clean but, the reliability and frequency is ridiculously bad on a lot of routes.

Also, I don't know why they have no back doors on busses here. Almost anywhere else I've ever been either has a 'trust' system like the Luas where you just valid a pre-paid ticket onboard or pay at the driver's ticket machine.

Or, they have exit-only policies on the backdoors and you board via the front and pay the driver or swipe a prepay card.

In Cork you're paying cash (which takes ages as everyone seems to end up fumbling for coins or trying to pay with €5 notes!) and then you have to squash past entering passengers while you're trying to get off.

The whole thing delays the busses by a good 2 and even up to 5 minutes at every stop so it's no wonder they're always late.

Also, if anyone is going to argue that you can't trust Irish passengers to pay, please just look at the Luas and look at other European cities. Irish passenger behaviour is no different from anyone else and the argument's complete nonsense.

Having no prepay cards on urban bus systems like Cork is just mindbogglingly backwards. It's 2013, not 1913!!

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

Well I would hope not, LEAP was introduced at about the same time that contactless debit cards were and had already been introduced on public transport in other countries. So I would hope that they planned ahead.

Low value transactions on debit cards don't require an internet connection (even in a shop) for speed reasons, so it should be possible to do it with the existing ticket machines *

* This is assuming the ticket machines can handle the extra code, which given the performance of Leap on these machines, I would question.

Either way I believe the DB ticket machines need to be replaced anyway, they just aren't powerful enough to handle leap and all the future requirements that will be put on them.

I think the wayfarers aren't up to the challenge of delivering a smooth and seamless smartcard experience and it's almost worked out to Dublin Bus' disadvantage that they rolled out smartcard capabilities prematurely before the NTA came into being and got the Leap scheme going. They (especially the remote smartcard reader on the opposite side to the driver) need to be replaced. But I don't think the Leap card is so bad for the individual user experience in that it's easy for both locals and visitors to obtain one and it offers 15 to 20% discounts on typical single fares across various modes of transport in Dublin.

Eight Ball

Brought the kids into town last xmas for a look at the lights cost the guts of 18 euro return for all of us. Will be taking the car paying the 10 euro parking this year thanks very much.

dazberry

My gross salary is back at what it was 10 years ago, my commute is one "set of stages" less per way each day than it was but the fare is now twice in comparison. Because of the successive price increases I've found that I have become very price conscious regarding public transport. I've also found my bus to be very unreliable in the evenings and the RTPI is often a work of fiction. As a result when I'm in form I tend to walk the journey, each walk saves me 10% of my commute costs.

With successive price rises in prepaid tickets, coupled with my change of zone, I now find that no prepaid ticket is cost effective for my commuting pattern. Finally I do use a LEAP card, I live near a Luas stop and ironically the nice Luas people facilitate me using the LEAP card on the bus by providing the infrastructure for me to top up...

D.

SpaceTime

Dubl07 wrote: »

I use the bus very infrequently partly because I have felt unsafe when using it. Your experiences my be different to mine for various reasons but that does not give you the right to dismiss my opinion as scaremongering. Back off.

It's a valid point and I have felt very nervous on certain routes in Dublin where scary characters have gotten on and caused problems.

It very much depends which routes and what times you're travelling.

I would also add that the ventilation systems on Irish busses are totally inadequate and many of them end up being damp and stuffy on board at peak times when they're full, especially in winter.

I've used busses in Western France, Northern Spain and Belgium all of which have similarly cool / damp winter weather but it's only in Ireland and Britain that I've ever come across busses with condensation flowing down the windows.

There's often even a 'damp / sour' smell in the upper decks in particular.

This does not happen on other vehicles e.g. the Luas or on trains. So there's something weird with the design that's causing it.

If busses aren't pleasant and comfortable to travel on, people will use them in much smaller numbers.

OldNotWIse

Weird. For me it was the increasing fares, the fact that city centre congestion makes walking quicker, the fact that 50% of buses will drive past, full every morning and leave people stranded at the bus stop and of course the passengers who are at best irritating and at worst, infectious.

landsleaving

Does Kelly take the bus every day as part of his public transport minister job? And if not, why not? Because these are the comments of someone who's never so much as seen a bus, let alone used one on a regular basis. He should have to use public transport as part of his job.

LXFlyer

Eight Ball wrote: »

Brought the kids into town last xmas for a look at the lights cost the guts of 18 euro return for all of us. Will be taking the car paying the 10 euro parking this year thanks very much.

Again - the Family ticket is €11.50. It covers 2 adults and 4 children.

Why did you not get that?

OldNotWIse

strangel00p wrote: »

Agreed, ditched public transport exactly one year ago. Bought a bike on the bike to work scheme(which has easily paid for itself) and cycled 10km to work each day. Best thing I ever did, my only regret is not doing it years ago. I've saved at least €1200 on bus/train fares - if money is tight, get a bike!

Fair play to you. I'd love to cycle but I'd be terrified! I power walk with a bag of heavy books on my back though

Ditched the bus a month ago and feel great. More money, clearer head and lost a bit of weight

LeinsterDub

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - the Family ticket is €11.50. It covers 2 adults and 4 children.

Why did you not get that?

Because as we've outlined several times it like the 3rd Secret of fatama will only be revealed to the lay people when the time is right

hawkwind23

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - the Family ticket is €11.50. It covers 2 adults and 4 children.

Why did you not get that?

because as an infrequent user we dont know about these offers or have the time with 4 kids to start trawling the small print of the poorly designed dublin bus website.

the main point here is that ...........

€11.50 for a trip into town vs €10 parking.

is public transport not supposed to be subsidised with "green" money and therefore offer incentive to use it.
the system isnt working and i dont know how some people can stand by and justify the pricing.

public transport should offer a cost effective means of getting a family into town.

it should not work out more expensive

if it is then its not working and it needs changed