Confiscating Free Travel Passes?

Mrs OBumble

Spotted this interesting announcement on Burkes website today (http://www.burkesbus.com/)


Passenger presenting a Free Travel Pass will be required to have photo ID from Friday 20th December 2013.

A Free Travel Pass may be confiscated if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the pass is being misused.



Is it legal for them to do this, I wonder?

foggy_lad

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Spotted this interesting announcement on Burkes website today (http://www.burkesbus.com/)


Passenger presenting a Free Travel Pass will be required to have photo ID from Friday 20th December 2013.

A Free Travel Pass may be confiscated if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the pass is being misused.



Is it legal for them to do this, I wonder?

As private operators they can insist on photo id from all users of the pass and this can be asked even where the pass contains a photopass, they can insist on a passport or other id to verify the identity of the individuals presenting the passes. Most private operators have such conditions written into their terms and conditions of carriage, JJ Kavanaghs have had the photo id in their conditions since they started accepting the free travel passes.

The semi-state companies are however not entitled to the same level of protection and fraud prevention. the limit of their checks is to ask the pass holder for a sample of their signature to compare to the signature on the pass, This can obviously be a signature on any id card/bank card/passport etc but it also includes the passenger writing their signature on the spot if they claim not to have any other id.

cython

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Spotted this interesting announcement on Burkes website today (http://www.burkesbus.com/)


Passenger presenting a Free Travel Pass will be required to have photo ID from Friday 20th December 2013.

A Free Travel Pass may be confiscated if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the pass is being misused.



Is it legal for them to do this, I wonder?

From Section 3.9 of Free Travel page on Welfare.ie:

3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

Whenever a person is travelling using their Free Travel Pass, s/he must produce their Pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the Pass Holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/civil partner/cohabitant must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the Pass is being misused.

My reading of that would be that anybody appointed by a participating operator as an inspector can indeed confiscate the card if they suspect it's being used fraudulently (not sure how that fits in with foggy_lad's post, but it makes no distinction between private and semi-state operators)

Hilly Bill

Does a private operator have to take the travel passes or is it just up to their discretion? Do they get anything from the DSP to cover the pass holders? Would it be easier for them just to refuse travel if they suspect a pass was being misused? Would a private operator need permission off the DSP to confiscate any passes?

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does a private operator have to take the travel passes or is it just up to their discretion? Do they get anything from the DSP to cover the pass holders? Would it be easier for them just to refuse travel if they suspect a pass was being misused? Would a private operator need permission off the DSP to confiscate any passes?

Private operators can get funding to take them, not all services are funded. Some non-funded services offer discounts for them but I have never heard of a non-funded service giving free travel for zero income.

The funding is nowhere close to the actual value of forfeited income.

There's different rules for PSO services operated by private operators - this only applies to licenced but entirely own-risk services.

AlekSmart

Expect a BIG increase in such stuff from early 2014.

With the new chipped Free Travel enabled DSP Services Card,live since last Monday (9th) the process of verifying DSP Pass Holders usage is about to take a new twist.

From the 9th Dec the new FT enabled cards are now valid.

Initially (until end of Q1 2014) the new card will be used in "Flash" mode,as is current practice.

However from c.April,Irish Rail and it appears Dublin Bus will require FT Card holders to Validate their FT Card on each journey.

Those with a pass endorsed P (Personal) can validate at either the remote or Drivers machine on Bus usage.

However those with a Card endorsed "S" or "C" will have to do so at the Drivers machine and obtain a travel ticket for their spouse/companion.

Also it should be noted well that the new DSP Services Card of itself is NOT a Free Travel Card UNLESS it has the FT logo embossed top left,upon it.

The standard DSP Card which has a Blue logo on the top left corner,is NOT valid for Free Travel.

It also appears that contrary to initial plans,the DSP will be implimenting a one for one withdrawal mechanism,with the eventuality being a cut-off date for all Old-Style butter-voucher type documents.

It may also be,that holders will be encouraged to surrender the old document to Busdrivers upon reciept of their new chipped FT Card.

This is only one of the initial steps of a very far reaching and fundamental reorganization of the FT Scheme,which will entail quite a degree of controversy,and perhaps even confrontation,as the process ramps up over the coming months.

goingnowhere

Indeed Alek, dawning of a new age.

BowWow

AlekSmart wrote: »

With the new chipped Free Travel enabled DSP Services Card,live since last Monday (9th) the process of verifying DSP Pass Holders usage is about to take a new twist.
From the 9th Dec the new FT enabled cards are now valid.

Haven't seen this on news/papers anywhere. Was it just a "soft" launch with only the transport companies being told about it?

AlekSmart

BowWow wrote: »

Haven't seen this on news/papers anywhere. Was it just a "soft" launch with only the transport companies being told about it?

And BowWow,I very much doubt that you will see anything about it.

Thos DSP "Customers" issued with the new card will recieve an explanatory leaflet on how to use it....It's nobody else's business except for the Transport Operators Staff,so no real need for any Media Launch per se.

However,It appears that the major agencies of State have limited confidence in the use of "New" technologies in their remits.

This entails most game-changing elements being "slipped in" or "Soft-Launched" to allow the grey masses time to acclimatize to the new order.

Of greater interest to me,is the (so far) very grey area of what the policy is on withdrawing the old cardboard passes,if I was cynical I would be thinking that the DSP itself might not wish too much light being shone into this particular dark corner.

The very notion of actually CHANGING stuff rapidly gives these people the vapours....that's why they require salary Top-Up's

Sam Russell

I have noticed at my local Dart station that they now have a sign on the ticket checking barrier that beyond that point, a ticket is mandatory and a €100 fine for not having one. I asked the ticket guy and he said that from April, DSP passes would need a chip to be used on the Dart.

I phoned the Sligo (or wherever) office that issues the new chip cards and was given the line that nothing is due to change and we have not been told of any change.

So, a soft launch indeed. However, it is time for a bit of revenue protection. Recently, I saw a Dart ticket inspection crew on the Dart - first time in years. I witness significant ticket fraud on the Dart with no action by staff to stop it.

Victor

AlekSmart wrote: »

This entails most game-changing elements being "slipped in" or "Soft-Launched" to allow the grey masses time to acclimatize to the new order.

Note how 'big bang' didn't work for Aircoach this week.

Gatling

Be interesting to see what will happen to the apparently thousands of fake passes being currently been sold around the country,
Probably end up with masses of them been dumped on the market before there totally useless

Jamie2k9

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1215/493007-free-travel-blitz/

Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Social Protection say they have uncovered widespread fraud in the use of free travel passes issued by the Department in an ongoing inspection blitz launched last weekend.

"Many holders were found to be travelling on out of date passes including one woman who was travelling on a pass that was out of date since 2007," a joint statement said.

"Many others were found to be travelling on a pass that was issued to somebody else," it added.

Passes being used fraudulently were confiscated with fines of up to €100.

Over 50 inspectors were involved in the 7 December blitz checking passes on Cork Commuter lines and services between Athlone-Galway, Mullingar-Dublin and Limerick Junction-Ennis.

Exit checks were also carried out at Connolly, Pearse, Tara Street and Heuston stations in Dublin.

Iarnród Éireann says more blitzes are planned.

The company says it has allocated extra resources to tackle fare evasion and fraudulent use of free travel passes.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Expect a BIG increase in such stuff from early 2014.

With the new chipped Free Travel enabled DSP Services Card,live since last Monday (9th) the process of verifying DSP Pass Holders usage is about to take a new twist.

From the 9th Dec the new FT enabled cards are now valid.

Initially (until end of Q1 2014) the new card will be used in "Flash" mode,as is current practice.

However from c.April,Irish Rail and it appears Dublin Bus will require FT Card holders to Validate their FT Card on each journey.

Those with a pass endorsed P (Personal) can validate at either the remote or Drivers machine on Bus usage.

However those with a Card endorsed "S" or "C" will have to do so at the Drivers machine and obtain a travel ticket for their spouse/companion.

Also it should be noted well that the new DSP Services Card of itself is NOT a Free Travel Card UNLESS it has the FT logo embossed top left,upon it.

The standard DSP Card which has a Blue logo on the top left corner,is NOT valid for Free Travel.

It also appears that contrary to initial plans,the DSP will be implimenting a one for one withdrawal mechanism,with the eventuality being a cut-off date for all Old-Style butter-voucher type documents.

It may also be,that holders will be encouraged to surrender the old document to Busdrivers upon reciept of their new chipped FT Card.

This is only one of the initial steps of a very far reaching and fundamental reorganization of the FT Scheme,which will entail quite a degree of controversy,and perhaps even confrontation,as the process ramps up over the coming months.

Have you any sources for your information? Does thi information come from canteen gossip or some internal memo or.............?

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

"Many holders were found to be travelling on out of date passes including one woman who was travelling on a pass that was out of date since 2007", a joint statement said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1215/493007-free-travel-blitz/

THe passes have no expiry date. They don't go out of date.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/graphic-designer-forges-free-travel-passes-245553.html

Clive Keogh, aged 39, will be sentenced in December after pleading guilty yesterday at Dublin District Court to forgery and possessing false instruments including social welfare travel passes and ID.

ohyesthefinest

Who would one report this sort of misuse to?

noelfirl

AlekSmart wrote: »

It also appears that contrary to initial plans,the DSP will be implimenting a one for one withdrawal mechanism,with the eventuality being a cut-off date for all Old-Style butter-voucher type documents.

Excellent. The day of the Kellogg's travel pass fiasco needs to be drawn to a close totally and rapidly. It's utterly ridiculous that such an open to abuse system has been allowed to continue this long.

Gatling

I believe they can be considered out of date ,due to the fact the holder is no longer entitled due circumstances changing ie in full time employment

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

I believe they can be considered out of date ,due to the fact the holder is no longer entitled due circumstances changing ie in full time employment

A holder being in full time employment does not always render them ineligible for the pass. But if a person's circumstances changed or they recovered from some medical condition they would no longer be eligible at all so it could not be said that the pass was out of date. I think it is just poor journalism or the spokesperson does not know what they were commenting on.

Although if a person on Disability allowance or Blind persons pension transfers onto a back to work allowance they may keep their pass for up to 3 years/the duration of the allowance and after that time the pass would be considered out of date and expired

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

Have you any sources for your information? Does thi information come from canteen gossip or some internal memo or.............?

When I am referring to "Canteen Gossip" in my postings Foggy,I tend to make that clear.

In the case of the new DSP documentation,the final operational arrangements across the CIE group companies are in the final stages of implementation.

As I say,until the end of Q1 2014,there will be no change in current DSP arrangements,after this,with the enabling of the respective software, DSP Customers will see some changes to how they use their Pass.

Expect official announcements closer to the respective dates of operation,however,as the pace of replacement pass issuing remains painfully slow,this may prove to be a lengthy process indeed.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

When I am referring to "Canteen Gossip" in my postings Foggy,I tend to make that clear.

In the case of the new DSP documentation,the final operational arrangements across the CIE group companies are in the final stages of implementation.

As I say,until the end of Q1 2014,there will be no change in current DSP arrangements,after this,with the enabling of the respective software, DSP Customers will see some changes to how they use their Pass.

Expect official announcements closer to the respective dates of operation,however,as the pace of replacement pass issuing remains painfully slow,this may prove to be a lengthy process indeed.

Where is this information you have coming from though? Can you link to or otherwise provide the source?

Jamie2k9

THe passes have no expiry date. They don't go out of date.

Foggy,

Some of the passes have time limits on them.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Foggy,

Some of the passes have time limits on them.

There is no mention of any expiry date or time limits in the internal guidelines for issuing of free travel passes.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx

3.11 IN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES MUST THE FREE TRAVEL PASS BE RETURNED?

In the event of any of the following occurring, the Free Travel Pass must be returned to the address given below:

The passholder does not continue to reside on a permanent basis in the State
The Pass Holder changes address (Pass must be returned for change of address and renewal)
The Pass Holder no longer satisfies the criteria applicable to his/her particular Free Travel entitlement (Companion status will be amended as necessary, and appropriate replacement Pass will be issued)
the pass is worn or illegible
the passholder is no longer in receipt of a qualifying payment

5.2 FREE TRAVEL RETENTION

Where a pass holder transfers to another payment from the Department of Social Protection, or participates in certain types of community work projects:

A Free Travel Pass holder receiving Disability Allowance or Blind Person's Pension who transfers to a Back-to-Work Allowance scheme (BTWA) may retain his/her Free Travel Pass for the duration of the BTWA payment (up to 3 years for most transferees, but 4 years for people in designated Partnership Areas, who take up self employment).

A Free Travel Pass holder who participates in a Community Employment project, an Employee Support Scheme or a Pilot Project for People with Disabilities, is entitled to retain the Free Travel Pass for the duration of the project.

A Free Travel Pass holder who receives Invalidity Pension, Disability Allowance or Blind Person's Pension, may retain his/her Free Travel Pass on transfer to any other Department of Social Protection payment (excluding Jobseeker's Benefit/Allowance, Illness Benefit and Pre-Retirement Allowance).

Above is the only reference I could find to a pass going invalid/out of date

Can you link to some document that refers or documents the time limits?

Kristopherus

IMHO the only people that should qualify for a FTP are those on a qualifying Disability or Illness payment and OAPs. Giving them to all the others is another relic of the Bertie Ahern Spend,Spend,Spend era:(.

Hilly Bill

The yellow band pass are no longer valid but are still in use by some. Ive seen some passes that have a date on them but im not sure which ones. There is a lot of ignorance regarding the companion,pass with people giving it to sons and daughters to use and then moan when it gets confiscated saying that they didnt know .

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Interesting as I have not got one of these new cards yet.

I wonder how many of the new cards will need to be issued before the old passes can be withdrawn?

I doubt it can all happen by April.

Last count a few months back 250 issued if I remember correctly out of the 750,000 + eligible holders you could be waiting a while for one

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Jamie2k9

Further on from the RTE link on the weekend of 7 December.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-rail-confiscates-travel-passes-in-fraud-crackdown-617225.html

More than 300 were taken away for verification.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no mention of any expiry date or time limits in the internal guidelines for issuing of free travel passes.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx

Above is the only reference I could find to a pass going invalid/out of date

Can you link to some document that refers or documents the time limits?

Can't link them but have saw ones with time limits. I also think if the pass is "lost" and a replacement one may have a time limit on it.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The yellow band pass are no longer valid but are still in use by some. Ive seen some passes that have a date on them but im not sure which ones. There is a lot of ignorance regarding the companion,pass with people giving it to sons and daughters to use and then moan when it gets confiscated saying that they didnt know .

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Can't link them but have saw ones with time limits. I also think if the pass is "lost" and a replacement one may have a time limit on it.

all passes have the date of issue printed on them as well as the date written in by the user when they sign the card.

foxy farmer

A Bus Eireann driver told me recently that fair few OAPs bording buses dont show their pass either deliberately or just too lazy to dig it out of bag etc. They just pat their hand to their chest in a gesture of "I have it in my pocket". They're known as "titty tappers"

Gatling

foxy farmer wrote: »

A Bus Eireann driver told me recently that fair few OAPs bording buses dont show their pass either deliberately or just too lazy to dig it out of bag etc. They just pat their hand to their chest in a gesture of "I have it in my pocket". They're known as "titty tappers"

You would probably find in a lot of cases they don't actually have a pass on them

bmaxi

Kristopherus wrote: »

IMHO the only people that should qualify for a FTP are those on a qualifying Disability or Illness payment and OAPs. Giving them to all the others is another relic of the Bertie Ahern Spend,Spend,Spend era:(.

What other categories are they issued to besides those on old age, disability or illness?

foggy_lad

bmaxi wrote: »

What other categories are they issued to besides those on old age, disability or illness?

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/How-do-I-qualify-for-free-travel.aspx

bmaxi

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The yellow band pass are no longer valid but are still in use by some. .

When did that happen, do you have a link?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

bmaxi

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/How-do-I-qualify-for-free-travel.aspx

Interesting. Not a huge amount of people in those categories I would imagine who would not qualify in the near future for a pass in their own right though.
I think the fraudulent use is a much bigger issue and like most other things, the deterrent fine is much too little.

bmaxi

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As an invalid, I have a yellow band pass. It has no expiry date and I have not been advised that it is no longer valid or that it is being withdrawn, nor have I been issued with any replacement.

foggy_lad

foxy farmer wrote: »

A Bus Eireann driver told me recently that fair few OAPs bording buses dont show their pass either deliberately or just too lazy to dig it out of bag etc. They just pat their hand to their chest in a gesture of "I have it in my pocket". They're known as "titty tappers"

And this driver lets them board without seeing their pass?

Gatling

foggy_lad wrote: »

And this driver lets them board without seeing their pass?

A lot of them don't display passes just tap there pocket or bag

Happens across CIE

foggy_lad

bmaxi wrote: »

As an invalid, I have a yellow band pass. It has no expiry date and I have not been advised that it is no longer valid or that it is being withdrawn, nor have I been issued with any replacement.

The colours to distinguish between different sections of people entitled to free travel have been deemed discriminatory especially on the grounds of age so all passes issued after a certain date have a red stripe only. all other passes are still valid but if they require replacement they will be replaced with the new red striped pass.

Hilly Bill

bmaxi wrote: »

When did that happen, do you have a link?

begining of the year some time.

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

A lot of them don't display passes just tap there pocket or bag

Happens across CIE

So the drivers allow people on buses without showing a pass? What if they don't have their pass because some relative has taken it to get to and from work?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

When I am referring to "Canteen Gossip" in my postings Foggy,I tend to make that clear.

In the case of the new DSP documentation,the final operational arrangements across the CIE group companies are in the final stages of implementation.

As I say,until the end of Q1 2014,there will be no change in current DSP arrangements,after this,with the enabling of the respective software, DSP Customers will see some changes to how they use their Pass.

Expect official announcements closer to the respective dates of operation,however,as the pace of replacement pass issuing remains painfully slow,this may prove to be a lengthy process indeed.

Where is this information from though? Can you link to or otherwise provide the source?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The yellow band pass are no longer valid but are still in use by some.

Where is this information from? Can you link to or otherwise provide the source?

Gatling

Fred Swanson wrote: »

All well and good till an inspector boards the bus.

They rarely do which has added to the problem

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Of greater interest to me,is the (so far) very grey area of what the policy is on withdrawing the old cardboard passes,if I was cynical I would be thinking that the DSP itself might not wish too much light being shone into this particular dark corner.

The very notion of actually CHANGING stuff rapidly gives these people the vapours....that's why they require salary Top-Up's

I've seen media reports about a number of different public sector bodies whose senior management have salary top-ups, but this is the first time I've noticed any allegations about senior DSP personnel. Perhaps I just missed the media reports. Could you post a link? Do you have names?

On the face of it, this is all about making sure that transport companies and taxpayers are not being ripped off, and that free travel benefits are only going to people who are genuinely entitled to them. What reasonable person would object to that?

bmaxi

Hilly Bill wrote: »

begining of the year some time.

Is there an official statement declaring them to be no longer valid? I could see this leading to embarrassing confrontations if some bus drivers consider them invalid. I haven't used mine in quite some time as it is not always convenient to do so but I would imagine there would have to be an official document declaring them invalid rather than word of mouth, especially if, as Foggy Lad has said, this is not the case.

foggy_lad

bmaxi wrote: »

Is there an official statement declaring them to be no longer valid? I could see this leading to embarrassing confrontations if some bus drivers consider them invalid. I haven't used mine in quite some time as it is not always convenient to do so but I would imagine there would have to be an official document declaring them invalid rather than word of mouth, especially if, as Foggy Lad has said, this is not the case.

Until it is backed up by fact/official statement/press release it is nothing more than canteen gossip to me. and any staff member confiscating a pass on such spurious grounds should IMO be held personally liable along with the company.

Hilly Bill

Im sure there are more interesting things to talk about in a canteen foggy. A call to the social will give the official word on it if anyone is unsure. Id say keep using any pass until told otherwise by the social.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The yellow band pass are no longer valid but are still in use by some. Ive seen some passes that have a date on them but im not sure which ones. There is a lot of ignorance regarding the companion,pass with people giving it to sons and daughters to use and then moan when it gets confiscated saying that they didnt know .

Just for clarity,Hilly Bill, All legitimately held Free Passes remain fully valid,regardless of the Colour identifier. Buff,Blue and Red are ALL valid and will remain so,until the DSP FT Card issue process is complete.

The target figure for new DSP Services Card issues is 200 Per Week,Per DSP Local Area,this figure is for the Blue logo'd General Services Card,which includes a percentage of Cards with the Gold FT Logo and software compatibility activated.

As there is a requirement for ALL new DSP Services Cards to have a significantly higher level of identity verification,similar to the new Driving Licence process,it follows that the roll-out will be of some considerable duration.

Additionally,and importantly all DSP FT Card's WILL have an expiry date,which I understand,will be 2 years from each date of issue,a factor which will,of itself,reduce misuse and fraud by a significant amount.

As the Issue process has just commenced,and the initial period will see NO change to the FT Scheme's operation,I do not intend to engage with Foggy_Lad's confrontational desires.

Suffice to say,each recipient of the New FT Card,will be fully appraised of the revised issuance and usage procedures well in advance of their introduction.