Confiscating Free Travel Passes?

BuffyBot

Folks, I've just had to clear up a chunk of this thread.

Two points everyone should know by now.

1) Leave the moderation to the Mods. If you have an issue with a post, report it, don't take it up on thread
2) Don't reply to others taking things into their own hands. Report it, ignore it. By responding, you then begin to drag threads off into a whole other direction. Show some moderation yourselves, and save us a job

Odyssey 2005

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just for clarity,Hilly Bill, All legitimately held Free Passes remain fully valid,regardless of the Colour identifier. Buff,Blue and Red are ALL valid and will remain so,until the DSP FT Card issue process is complete.

The target figure for new DSP Services Card issues is 200 Per Week,Per DSP Local Area,this figure is for the Blue logo'd General Services Card,which includes a percentage of Cards with the Gold FT Logo and software compatibility activated.

As there is a requirement for ALL new DSP Services Cards to have a significantly higher level of identity verification,similar to the new Driving Licence process,it follows that the roll-out will be of some considerable duration.

Additionally,and importantly all DSP FT Card's WILL have an expiry date,which I understand,will be 2 years from each date of issue,a factor which will,of itself,reduce misuse and fraud by a significant amount.

As the Issue process has just commenced,and the initial period will see NO change to the FT Scheme's operation,I do not intend to engage with Foggy_Lad's confrontational desires.

Suffice to say,each recipient of the New FT Card,will be fully appraised of the revised issuance and usage procedures well in advance of their introduction.

Good post. Well said

bmaxi

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just for clarity,Hilly Bill, All legitimately held Free Passes remain fully valid,regardless of the Colour identifier. Buff,Blue and Red are ALL valid and will remain so,until the DSP FT Card issue process is complete.

The target figure for new DSP Services Card issues is 200 Per Week,Per DSP Local Area,this figure is for the Blue logo'd General Services Card,which includes a percentage of Cards with the Gold FT Logo and software compatibility activated.

As there is a requirement for ALL new DSP Services Cards to have a significantly higher level of identity verification,similar to the new Driving Licence process,it follows that the roll-out will be of some considerable duration.

Additionally,and importantly all DSP FT Card's WILL have an expiry date,which I understand,will be 2 years from each date of issue,a factor which will,of itself,reduce misuse and fraud by a significant amount.

As the Issue process has just commenced,and the initial period will see NO change to the FT Scheme's operation,I do not intend to engage with Foggy_Lad's confrontational desires.

Suffice to say,each recipient of the New FT Card,will be fully appraised of the revised issuance and usage procedures well in advance of their introduction.

This approach makes a lot more sense but is it still the case that DSP cards will not be verified by on board machines, i.e. will it still be a flash to the driver? If so, I think this is a mistake.

Victor

bmaxi wrote: »

This approach makes a lot more sense but is it still the case that DSP cards will not be verified by on board machines, i.e. will it still be a flash to the driver? If so, I think this is a mistake.

At least it will have a photo.

Although one wonders if someone will take a marker to their card.

bmaxi

Victor wrote: »

At least it will have a photo.

Although one wonders if someone will take a marker to their card.

In my experience, DB drivers pay little or no heed to the pass or to who is carrying it, I doubt this will change with the new passes. Onboard verification is the way to go although as far as I know the powers that be haven't even managed that with the Leap card.
Huge money paid out for barely functioning programmes seems to be the norm in the PS.

LXFlyer

bmaxi wrote: »

In my experience, DB drivers pay little or no heed to the pass or to who is carrying it, I doubt this will change with the new passes. Onboard verification is the way to go although as far as I know the powers that be haven't even managed that with the Leap card.
Huge money paid out for barely functioning programmes seems to be the norm in the PS.

Go back to Alek's original post above:

Initially (until end of Q1 2014) the new card will be used in "Flash" mode,as is current practice.

However from c.April,Irish Rail and it appears Dublin Bus will require FT Card holders to Validate their FT Card on each journey.

Those with a pass endorsed P (Personal) can validate at either the remote or Drivers machine on Bus usage.

However those with a Card endorsed "S" or "C" will have to do so at the Drivers machine and obtain a travel ticket for their spouse/companion.

V.W.L 11

No pass,no travel!!!!or else pay the fare!!!i wouldnt care how old the person is,if you claim to have a bus pass then prove it there and then otherwise tough luck!!!!!

RobbingBandit

My pass is a wreck, it is 4 years old and went through the wash on the third day it was issued to me and has been gradually falling apart since, everytime I use it I expect it to be rejected, I now no longer live at the address listed on it so I will be applying for a new one when I get sorted out with housing and hope to get one of the plastic ones instead.

Gatling

I hope they change the eligibility of passes and only issue them to those who truly need them not the current free for all I'm entitled to crowds

the groutch

nice to see some effort being made to cut down on fraud
but will only work if the drivers are prepared to fully enforce it, which I doubt looking at the current number of the "I have a pass" gang that drivers allow to walk straight past them.

V.W.L 11

Gatling wrote: »

I hope they change the eligibility of passes and only issue them to those who truly need them not the current free for all I'm entitled to crowds

you'd see plenty of well able bodied people legally holding them,thats morally wrong,they should only be for the physically disabled and pensioners,and i have no doubt 95% of travel pass holders are genuinely entitled to/need it

Gatling

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

you'd see plenty of well able bodied people legally holding them,thats morally wrong,they should only be for the physically disabled and pensioners,and i have no doubt 95% of travel pass holders are genuinely entitled to/need it

Pensioners in a lot of case's are way better off than most ordinary people ,

Disabled or those unable to work due to verified illness

KCAccidental

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

you'd see plenty of well able bodied people legally holding them,thats morally wrong,they should only be for the physically disabled and pensioners,and i have no doubt 95% of travel pass holders are genuinely entitled to/need it

why is it morally wrong?

V.W.L 11

Gatling wrote: »

Pensioners in a lot of case's are way better off than most ordinary people ,

Disabled or those unable to work due to verified illness

means test for pensioners???

V.W.L 11

KCAccidental wrote: »

why is it morally wrong?

not all cases are genuine as is the case across most welfare depts,wpuld you agree or disagree that 100% of people holding travel passes have them legitimately??!

Gatling

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

means test for pensioners???

It should be means tested but everyone knows that won't happen

V.W.L 11

Gatling wrote: »

It should be means tested but everyone knows that won't happen

government are afraid of losing the "grey vote" by doing it

KCAccidental

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

not all cases are genuine as is the case across most welfare depts,wpuld you agree or disagree that 100% of people holding travel passes have them legitimately??!

whether 100% of people who hold travel passes have them legitimately is not my question though.

why do you think able bodied people suffering from other debilitating problems having free travel passes is "morally wrong"?

V.W.L 11

KCAccidental wrote: »

whether 100% of people who hold travel passes have them legitimately is not my question though.

why do you think able bodied people suffering from other debilitating problems having free travel passes is "morally wrong"?

you're one of these able bodied people who holds a bus pass and dont like what you're reading???if you're well able to get about why should you have a bus pass???because people suffer from depression???only the physically and mentally disabled as well as those with serious medical conditions should have them and the pensioners

admcfad

bmaxi wrote: »

As an invalid, I have a yellow band pass. It has no expiry date and I have not been advised that it is no longer valid or that it is being withdrawn, nor have I been issued with any replacement.

The red banded passes are issued by the DSP when they are replacing lost/out of date yellow banded passes, or for new applications in the last number of years....... Yours is still valid.

Sorry AlecSmart just seen your post

Victor

OK folks, relax. Do not be judgemental towards to who are entitled to free travel passes.

There are many possible ways to reform the system. Lets not be overly dogmatic in how we draw those lines or in commenting on how others draw those lines.

Moderator

KCAccidental

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

you're one of these able bodied people who holds a bus pass and dont like what you're reading???if you're well able to get about why should you have a bus pass???because people suffer from depression???only the physically and mentally disabled as well as those with serious medical conditions should have them and the pensioners

Seems interesting that you are dismissing acute mental illness as something not worthy. Just cements the stigma that mental illness has in this country. No wonder our suicide rate is so high with the "sure there's nothing wrong with ya" attitude.

Also I do not appreciate you "accusing" me of something. It seems to me you are unable to argue your assertion that able bodied people with debilitating illnesses needing intensive treatment using free travel passes is "morally wrong" and the only thing you can do is lash out at me.

I'll ask you again. Why is it morally wrong?

Morf

With the plans for Free Travel smartcard users to electronically tag-on is there any mention of tracking travel of certain or all users?

There may be issues of preventing fraud on one hand and privacy on the other.

Is the Leap card data collated for service planning already and is it anonymous?

Victor

Morf wrote: »

Is the Leap card data collated for service planning already and is it anonymous?

The transport operators only know it was card number 1234567890. They do not know who owns the card.

Leap Card only know that Card 1234567890 had X amount deducted at Y time/date by Z operator. They would also have any personal registration data.

The NTA are likely to get summary reports from the operators, e.g. up north there was a report that one card issued to someone with a disability was being used on the same bus 10 times a day. Enquiries revealed that it was likely a guy who had a part-time care taker job who would typically return home several times a day.

The exact rules would need to be agreed with the Data Protection Commissioner.

corktina

Whilst it essential to stamp down on fraud, care should be taken when advocating curtailing free travel as it is effectively a subsidy for the whole system, which would have to be curtailed without it.

ballooba

corktina wrote: »

Whilst it essential to stamp down on fraud, care should be taken when advocating curtailing free travel as it is effectively a subsidy for the whole system, which would have to be curtailed without it.

Which is defrauding taxpayers. Any subsidy should be transparent.

corktina

Transparent to the point of losing the service?

Losty Dublin

corktina wrote: »

Transparent to the point of losing the service?

Under the current arrangements, services are being lost.

Conway635

The first thing that should happen, is the the time-based restrictions on free travel should be re-applied.

This used to mean that travel on peak services had to be paid for.

There was a poem that CIE used to use to advise "housewives" when not to travel, perhaps it could be resurrected for Free Travel Pass holders:

Shopping? Visiting?
Then get home early, at your ease
Leave rush-hour seats for workers please!

C635

V.W.L 11

Conway635 wrote: »

The first thing that should happen, is the the time-based restrictions on free travel should be re-applied.

This used to mean that travel on peak services had to be paid for.

There was a poem that CIE used to use to advise "housewives" when not to travel, perhaps it could be resurrected for Free Travel Pass holders:

Shopping? Visiting?
Then get home early, at your ease
Leave rush-hour seats for workers please!

C635

i 110% agree with you but if KCaccidental sees this they will probably get defensive as they have done to my previous comments,the whole system badly needs an overhaul from top to bottom

mickydoomsux

Conway635 wrote: »

The first thing that should happen, is the the time-based restrictions on free travel should be re-applied.

This used to mean that travel on peak services had to be paid for.

There was a poem that CIE used to use to advise "housewives" when not to travel, perhaps it could be resurrected for Free Travel Pass holders:

Shopping? Visiting?
Then get home early, at your ease
Leave rush-hour seats for workers please!

C635

I absolutely agree with this. There are trains leaving the station i work in at peak times with 50+ people standing and about 75% of the "customers" are on free travel. It's the same with any of the bus drivers i talk to.

Part of it is poor set management but a lot of it is people on free travel traveling for the sake of traveling because it's the same heads coming in and out of the place every day.

It doesn't really matter to the company because they get paid either way but i know if i was a paying customer i'd be rather put off using the train again.

Victor

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

if KCaccidental sees this

Knock it off, all of you

Moderator

KCAccidental

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

i 110% agree with you but if KCaccidental sees this they will probably get defensive as they have done to my previous comments,the whole system badly needs an overhaul from top to bottom

I take it you can't stand behind your own opinions then. Good to know that beyond the braindead rhetoric there's nothing of any substance.

punisher5112

Why do the workers have to pay for everything and how many direct and indirect taxes do we need to have.

The country as a whole is soft and we wiil end up with another fake buble.

I am glad to see changes coming in to help fight fraud but this will only change if there are proper checkers and people that are prepared to take passes and check for fraudulent ones.

I have come across time and time again the same characters using their ftp to carry a mate or girl and so on but do catch the odd one where it is a single pass as for themselves only and not a companion pass.

There are many that get aggressive when you pull them up on this some get so wound up and make absolute fools of themselves and the usuall answer they give is I always use it, the other drivers let me on, the companion pass is in the post, you must love your job etc etc etc

I hope they speed up the process and can't understand why they can't incorporate the leap card to speed up the process as the technology on the machines is set for that type of card. Changes have to be made for the social card.

Nothing is ever made simple in Ireland.

Victor

punisher5112 wrote: »

I hope they speed up the process and can't understand why they can't incorporate the leap card to speed up the process as the technology on the machines is set for that type of card. Changes have to be made for the social card.

The Public Services Card is able to function in much the same was as a Leap Card.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/public_services_card.html

donegal11

corktina wrote: »

Whilst it essential to stamp down on fraud, care should be taken when advocating curtailing free travel as it is effectively a subsidy for the whole system, which would have to be curtailed without it.

I would guess if there was no travel passes the private operators/CIE would generate more than 70 million. The fact that for 70 euro a head a free travel pass holder gets unlimited travel compared to the actual 6000 private cost. To say that free travel subsidizes the system is a joke and it's the poor honest paying passengers that are subsidizing rich pensioners, fraudsters and the ever growing numbered of disabled/carers with passes the never expire:rolleyes:.

corktina

donegal11 wrote: »

I would guess if there was no travel passes the private operators/CIE would generate more than 70 million. The fact that for 70 euro a head a free travel pass holder gets unlimited travel compared to the actual 6000 private cost. To say that free travel subsidizes the system is a joke and it's the poor honest paying passengers that are subsidizing rich pensioners, fraudsters and the ever growing numbered of disabled/carers with passes the never expire:rolleyes:.

That's not the case, without the free passes most of the journeys would not be made, the subsidy would be withdrawn and the services would have to be cut, or the fares increased enormously.
It's frankly insulting to lump pensioners and the disabled in with fraudsters

donegal11

corktina wrote: »

That's not the case, without the free passes most of the journeys would not be made, the subsidy would be withdrawn and the services would have to be cut, or the fares increased enormously.
It's frankly insulting to lump pensioners and the disabled in with fraudsters

So free travel holders are putting a strain on the system making unnecessary travel for which the subsidy doesn't cover the actual cost. How long would it take to spend €60-70 on travel or would FTP holders start walking everywhere or never leave the house .

BuffyBot

Folks, the ins and outs of the the Free Travel Pass are not the actual topic of discussion on this thread. Not every thread about it has to turn into one about who should and should not have one. Back to the OP's topic please and focus a little.

Mrs OBumble

corktina wrote: »

Whilst it essential to stamp down on fraud, care should be taken when advocating curtailing free travel as it is effectively a subsidy for the whole system, which would have to be curtailed without it.

Except that this thread came about as a result of a notice that a partiuclar small private operator - who get no subsidies, but yet have expanded their services considerably in recent years - is planning a clamp-down.

It's likely that the Burkes drivers know the names, addresses and family situation of the people who they are planning to take passes off.

punisher5112

Probably sick of working every day for very low wage and carrying the very people they pay taxes for to have the free life.

Not saying all are fraudsters but there are a lot and also a lot that are genuine and are struggling.

ballooba

donegal11 wrote: »

So free travel holders are putting a strain on the system making unnecessary travel for which the subsidy doesn't cover the actual cost. How long would it take to spend €60-70 on travel or would FTP holders start walking everywhere or never leave the house .

It seems to be taken as an irrevocable fact that all of these travel passes are used. My parents have them and I don't even know where their nearest point of access to public transport would be. Their passes are simply not used to a value anywhere near €70 per year.

V.W.L 11

ballooba wrote: »

It seems to be taken as an irrevocable fact that all of these travel passes are used. My parents have them and I don't even know where their nearest point of access to public transport would be. Their passes are simply not used to a value anywhere near €70 per year.

means test it,same criteria as the medical card perhaps?if you qualify for one get the other????

Hilly Bill

If this company is not being subsidised they why would they accept the passes? Basically if they havent an agreement with the social then they shouldnt be accepting or confiscating any passes.

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If this company is not being subsidised they why would they accept the passes? Basically if they havent an agreement with the social then they shouldnt be accepting or confiscating any passes.

The Public Service Obligation subsidy is completely independent of the Free Travel Scheme.

Hilly Bill

Victor wrote: »

The Public Service Obligation subsidy is completely independent of the Free Travel Scheme.

Does a private company operating a local service have to accept the passes? How does it work? Do they get money off the social for doing so?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Does a private company operating a local service have to accept the passes? How does it work? Do they get money off the social for doing so?

Short answer,No.

The acceptance of the Free Pass is subject to a commercial agreement between the operator and the DSP.

However,currently the Free Travel Scheme's funding is frozen at 2010 levels so no new agreements are being entered into,this means that a new operator or service COULD acept the Free Pass,however it would actually be FREE in the truest sense of the word !!

Hilly Bill

So in a nutshell, if there is no agreement then they cant confiscate any passes and if there is then they can?

AlekSmart

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So in a nutshell, if there is no agreement then they cant confiscate any passes and if there is then they can?

Yes,but if they were not accepting Free Travel Passes in the first place,then there would be no point in attempting to use it.

In this particular case it appears that the Operator HAS a commercial relationship with the DSP,and is simply introducing a more robust checking and verification process.

They are not alone in this either.