18" Bull Barrel importation

Amonisis

Hi guys, can someone please clarify the legality and or procedure for buying a replacement barrel for a Ruger 1022? I've seen dozens of barrels for sale at great prices and I'd like to replace the standard 18 1/2" carbine barrel for an 18"x.920 bull barrel for added weight and accuracy.

Sparks

Just as an aside, you ought to be aware of the gray area you're walking into with regard to barrel length on a rifle. A quick search of this forum should turn up a dozen or so threads on it.

Amonisis

Thanks for the "heads up" Sparks. I'm quite aware of the "grey area" legalities re: shortening an existing barrel, but can't find information on barrel replacement. I don't remember ever seeing barrel length specified on an FAC application or permit and don't know if I'm allowed to replace the existing barrel at all or if it must be done by a RFD. Can private individuals buy barrels from abroad? I've heard that it's legal to own more than one barrel for a shotgun for example. The barrels usually don't have serial numbers and are only metal tubes unless connected to the working mechanism of a gun. My information may not be 100% accurate and I'd appreciate clarification on this issue before I make any decisions."

Sparks

The law's got provisions in it for buying replacement barrels on your existing licence allright (even if it's tucked away outside of primary legislation), and yes, you can't cut down barrels below set sizes, that's not the gray area I meant - it's the possession of a firearm with a barrel below those set sizes because it came from the factory and was licenced that way, that's the gray area. Nobody knows if that's kosher or not and won't unless/until there's a court case.

Honestly? Get a 19.7" barrel. It's not even two inches, but it eliminates the risk. When someone with more time and money settles the gray area in court, you could go back, sell off the 19.7 and buy the 18 then without a care in the world.

Amonisis

Good advice. Can I legally just buy that length barrel and have it sent to me?

Sparks

Yes, but not like a box of corn flakes. Your licence does cover it, but you need an importation order from the DoJ, they have the forms here:
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Individuals#import

Amonisis

Thanks Sparks.

Amonisis

Hi guys, I just checked the dimensions of the standard Ruger 10 22 carbine barrel. They are 470mm or 18 1/2". This is shorter than the minimum legal barrel length stated on the SI. As the carbine has already been licensed with a sub 50cm barrel, can I replace it with a .920 barrel which is only 12mm or 1/2" shorter than the original. Not ignoring your previous sound advice Sparks, but I had assumed that the carbine barrel was longer than 50cm and the advice you gave was to remain above this length, when the original barrel is already shorter. There is also a much greater availability of the 45.8cm or 18" barrels at very good prices.
Can any of the wise ones on here clear this up for me?

Sparks

No, they can't and you've just put your finger on the reason this gray area's such an utter pain in the fundament. It's one of the things that needs to be sorted out with a court ruling or a rewrite of the law (and this time the courts would be the better solution because it's less effort to get the HC to rule on this than to push a bill through the Oireachtas).

Cass

Here it is:

• Buy a factory rifle with a barrel shorter than the legal minimum = Grey area.
• Shorten a barrel below the legal minimum = Illegal.
• Buy a replacement barrel below the legal minimum = Illegal.

So your rifle came, from the manufacturer, with a barrel shorter than the legal minimum. This is the grey area Sparks mentioned above. It does not concern shortening a barrel as that is NOT a grey area. It's very clear. To shorten a barrel can only be done to remove a fault/defect, but it must be built back up to the minimum legal length after the defect has been removed. How this is done i don't know.

The grey area only concerns factory rifles with barrels shorter than the legal minimum. The grey area being you cannot have/own/possess a rifle with a barrel less than the legal minimum without proper authorisation, yet your license stands as such. Hence the grey area.

Amonisis

Thanks guys. It really is a ridiculous situation where the authorities are issuing permits for firearms that blatantly digress from the letter of the law. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they do. The problem that's abundantly clear is that the authorities are consciously dropping permit holders into a situation where they cannot but break the law by possessing rifles with sub 50cm barrels on unrestricted permits. Are sub 50cm barrels permitted if it's a restricted permit that's held? The great risk here is that AGS can use the loophole of "applicants should know the relevant SI regulations and declare the full specifications including barrel length and what type of permit is relevant, when submitting the application. Full disclosure of all relevant information basically. This keeps their arses out of the fire. I'd rather not be the test case for this one so I'll look for a barrel equal to or longer than the original barrel.

Sparks

Amonisis wrote: »

Thanks guys. It really is a ridiculous situation where the authorities are issuing permits for firearms that blatantly digress from the letter of the law.

True; but don't forget that if they do and those licences are challanged and held to be void, then it's the shooter who is held to be at fault by the law.

There's a good reason you don't want to be the test case.

Are sub 50cm barrels permitted if it's a restricted permit that's held?

No. You can't be licenced to cut the barrels down past 50cm and it's illegal to possess one without authorisation. The gray arises because nobody knows if a firearms licence which doesn't mention the barrel length qualifies (we've had erroneously issued licences be declared void in the past, hence the doubt).

I'd rather not be the test case for this one so I'll look for a barrel equal to or longer than the original barrel.

It's suboptimal, but the most pragmatic approach really.

Amonisis

Let me get this clear, a permit issued to an applicant who made a declaration of the sub 50cm barrel length on his application, could not be "erroneously issued" and therefore could not be challenged? Or is ascertaining the legality of the particular firearm one of the functions of the issuing officer in the first place??? So an example of a "legally" held illegal firearm would be the GSG 522 with it's shorter than 45cm barrel, that the esteemed, gob****e politician, Michael Healy Rae, was televised "illegally" shooting in a field recently on TV3. I'm bewildered.

Sparks

Amonisis wrote: »

Let me get this clear, a permit issued to an applicant who made a declaration of the sub 50cm barrel length on his application, could not be "erroneously issued"

No, it could be erroneously issued. We've seen this before, when restricted firearms are issued unrestricted licences (and in one case, a firearm that could not be legally licenced at all was given a licence). The licence becomes null and void and the shooter is the one legally liable as it's down to the applicant to apply for the correct licence under the Act.

Or is ascertaining the legality of the particular firearm one of the functions of the issuing officer in the first place?

No, he doesn't have the legal liability, you do. That's not to say he wouldn't catch flak for it, but he wouldn't be the one in breach of the Firearms Act.

So an example of a "legally" held illegal firearm would be the GSG 522 with it's shorter than 45cm barrel, that the esteemed, gob****e politician, Michael Healy Rae, was televised "illegally" shooting in a field recently on TV3. I'm bewildered.

We can't say it's illegal on the basis of the barrel length. Nobody knows what the status is for that gray area, not us, not the DoJ, not the AGS, not the Minister, not the Courts, nobody. Not until there's a test case or the law's changed.