Parlimentary Questions - Pistols & license reviews.

Dian Cecht

rowa wrote: »

Using a technical spec is a better bet imho. Eg. maximum five shots, barrel length minimum 4.5 inches , minimum overall length 8 inches or whatever.

Yep.

Excellent suggestion!

Grizzly 45

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No disagreement whatsoever! I'd love to see it all managed entirely at the local civilian government level myself, but for the time being, it's not, and it would be far less complex or difficult to increase AGS funding than to change that paradigm.

However,week before last the Asst cheif commissioner[???]I think hinted that this could be an option with further Garda cutbacks..Whether he was blowing smoke to scare the Irish sheeple into a "support your local Gardai,as they are the only ones competant to handle this." type of tactic or it was genuine is open to debate.If they are worried about this not being handled properly and might be compromised etc.Why then did they hand out the liscensing fee collection to An post??

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

However,week before last the Asst cheif commissioner[???]I think hinted that this could be an option with further Garda cutbacks..Whether he was blowing smoke to scare the Irish sheeple into a "support your local Gardai,as they are the only ones competant to handle this." type of tactic or it was genuine is open to debate.If they are worried about this not being handled properly and might be compromised etc.Why then did they hand out the liscensing fee collection to An post??

Maybe not grizz, both a super and chief super told me firearms licencing should not be part of their job, it takes up too much of their time and they didn't want the responsibility for it either.

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Maybe not grizz, both a super and chief super told me firearms licencing should not be part of their job, it takes up too much of their time and they didn't want the responsibility for it either.

And here we come to the core of the matter.Time and responsibility.
And TBVH I dont blame them and sympathise with them.It shouldnt be part of the remit anymore,but that doesnt mean that both of those problems are the green light to kill t off entirely either.:(

Sikamick

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-12-10a.857


Quote:
Quote[Niall Collins] (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context 372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]Quote[]


Is this a leading question to allow changes to SI/Firearms acts which wont be of any benefit to the shooting fraternity. One would imagine that Niall Collins would have asked the question as to who or what department issued the importation licenses for these firearms. Are they the one and the same DOJ people that were involved in the court cases mentioned by Collins.

Quote:
Quote[Alan Shatter] (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.Quote[]


In looking into these key issues to quote Minister Shatter, ? will leading representatives of the shooting sports here in Ireland be allowed to be involved to have discussions on the examining of the said key issues relating to firearms licensing. Also will the leading representatives of the shooting sports be allowed to bring their qualified National / International ballistic specialist with them.

http://vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1753&start=40

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

will leading representatives of the shooting sports here in Ireland be allowed to be involved to have discussions on the examining of the said key issues relating to firearms licensing. Also will the leading representatives of the shooting sports be allowed to bring their qualified National / International ballistic specialist with them.

That was the entire point of the FCP.
Shame we pissed it away for nothing, isn't it?

rowa

Sparks wrote: »

That was the entire point of the FCP.
Shame we pissed it away for nothing, isn't it?

Why ? They never listened to shooters in the first place. They might have appeared to be listening attentively to shooters groups over the tae and biccy's in stephens green. But if they were, why did they refuse to re-licence 80% of c/f pistols and spend 20 million fighting court cases, using every dirty trick (including the swept under the mat form tampering thats been convieniently forgotten) in the book.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

Why ? They never listened to shooters in the first place.

Wrong.
For a start, they were shooters. It wasn't a group we appealed to - it was a group we were an official part of. It was the official line from this community into the AGS and DoJ and Minister.

Was it a button we could push anytime we wanted that got us everything we wanted?
Eh, you are old enough to be paying taxes, right?

But if they were, why did they refuse to re-licence 80% of c/f pistols

You're mixing up the "they"s and you're muddling the timeline.

and spend 20 million fighting court cases, using every dirty trick (including the swept under the mat form tampering thats been convieniently forgotten) in the book.

(a) You're really muddling up the timeline, since by the time that happened, the NARGC were throwing rocks at the Minister in public and scuppering the FCP in the process.
(b) The same source that was whispering to you earlier? Is the specific party that agreed to the deal whereby the sweeping under the mat you mentioned was given the okay.


Basically, there is no legal way in which the shooting community can ever have a veto over a sitting Minister. There just isn't. Our country isn't set up that way. We can't claim half the stuff the shoutier members of our community would like to because those claims are... well, frankly they're juvenile and embarrassing for the rest of us to hear. We do not have a right to bear arms as the US does, so looking to how things are organised there is a nonstarter. And lamenting that we don't have their freedoms is grand over a pint after a long week, but not how you try to further the best interests of our community.

So what are we left with? Well, we can sit where we are now (which is where we were from 1972 until about 2005ish), on the outside, with no access to the Minister, DoJ or AGS bar what is given as a favour; or we could have had:

Sparks wrote: »

a regular consultation process between the DoJ, the Gardai, and the various bodies who govern shooting in Ireland - the NARGC, the ICPSA, the NTSA, the NSAI, and so on. And I mean a scheduled, regular, sit-down-at-a-table-with-the-minister meeting, not lip service.

2004, I said that and I'd been saying it since about 2000, and all that time had been laughed at for being naive and unrealistic for wanting too much. But we had it less than two years later, and it sorted out more than anyone knows or gives it credit for. All the shooting bodies actually came together and worked in unison for a few years and they achieved something by doing so. Sure, some big self-aggrandising, self-important blowhards love to say it was useless and call it a failure, but they aren't the reason that your dentist isn't able to legally be used by the Super to testify as to your mental health when you apply for a licence. They're not why that and a thousand other awful pieces of crap didn't land on your head. And they're not why we still have any pistols at all (though they may well be why we lose what little we have now). And they're not why we still have lines of communication, if unofficial, to the PTB.

Where we were was out in the cold with nothing. The minister wanted us gone the next day? We'd have been gone. Toast. (Courts? You're kidding me, right?) The FCP wasn't the be-all and end-all, but it was more than we ever had and it was a start, not a dead end. That we pissed it all away after a decade of work by dozens if not hundreds of people across the community is why a lot of people threw up their hands in disgust at this community and walked away to go shoot while they still could before the next shouty eejit drowned us in even more bull**** from the PTB.

You want my honest heartfelt advice? If the review mentioned in the first post of this thread is what I fear it is, go to the range and shoot. Because the muppets who're claiming they'll fight it on the beaches? Couldn't stop the Minister from passing gas, let alone laws.

Grizzly 45

Sikamick wrote: »

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-12-10a.857


Quote:
Quote[Niall Collins] (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context 372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]Quote[]


Is this a leading question to allow changes to SI/Firearms acts which wont be of any benefit to the shooting fraternity. One would imagine that Niall Collins would have asked the question as to who or what department issued the importation licenses for these firearms. Are they the one and the same DOJ people that were involved in the court cases mentioned by Collins.

Quote:
Quote[Alan Shatter] (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.Quote[]


In looking into these key issues to quote Minister Shatter, ? will leading representatives of the shooting sports here in Ireland be allowed to be involved to have discussions on the examining of the said key issues relating to firearms licensing. Also will the leading representatives of the shooting sports be allowed to bring their qualified National / International ballistic specialist with them.

http://vcrai.com/phpBB/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1753&start=40

Sikamick

Think Collins is referring to the recent cases here in Limerick where three lads won back their semi rifles and handguns.Half of which were granted three years ago in the DC,and the others were dicked about by the CS for four years.

I'd be more intrested in knowing is this a solo run, or was he asked to ask this question by someone down here??

Dian Cecht

IMVHO reading between the lines from various sources it's the "fighting on the beaches", namely all the cases to get 1911 lookalike .22 pistols, fullbore pistols, restricted stuff & the dreaded "black" rifles that has resulted in the coming review.


Sparks is right, if "they" loose ............... "they" change the rules :mad:

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

IMVHO reading between the lines from various sources it's the "fighting on the beaches", namely all the cases to get 1911 lookalike .22 pistols, fullbore pistols, restricted stuff & the dreaded "black" rifles that has resulted in the coming review.

2004 deja vu right there.

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

IMVHO reading between the lines from various sources it's the "fighting on the beaches", namely all the cases to get 1911 lookalike .22 pistols, fullbore pistols, restricted stuff & the dreaded "black" rifles that has resulted in the coming review.


Sparks is right, if "they" loose ............... "they" change the rules :mad:

As one of those "on the beaches" What is our choice??:(

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As one of those "on the beaches" What is our choice??:(

1. You're not on the beaches, you're in a court of law getting a ruling on a dispute with a single garda officer who was not adhering to the Firearms Act. That's not even in the same country as what those calling for fights on the beaches are talking about. You are, if anything, on the other side to them because you're using the system they want to see gone and you have a lot invested in it. They change the law and you could be right back where you started. Or, if things go the way we're all worrying about, your problems will soon all be over and everything resolved... just not the way you want.
2. The FCP resolved cases like that through the FPU, and had a lot of success but you never heard about the vast majority of cases because it was resolved quietly and the problem just went away instead of needing months and years in court and acrimony all round. (Did they solve every problem? No. Do the courts? No. Which costs less and is more long lasting? It ain't the courts, as your case has shown...)
3. We're - and this is not the first time it's been said specifically to you Grizz, it's been said more than a dozen times at this stage - not talking about individuals who have to take cases to court. We're talking about people who are looking to lob rocks at the Ministerial level to effect some sort of systemic change. You're looking for a licence - they're looking for a new firearms act.

Dian Cecht

Sparks wrote: »

2004 deja vu right there.

Yep, I think we're going to see history repeat itself, unfortunately

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As one of those "on the beaches" What is our choice??:(

Man, I'm actually on your side.

Sometimes you just have to stop hitting your head off the wall & accept what you're given

Dian Cecht

Sparks wrote: »

they're looking for a new firearms act.

Which of course will make everything better? Next you'll tell me Santa IS real !

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Which of course will make everything better?

I've sat through two full cycles of that now. Not only will it make everything worse, it'll take ages and be mangled by every backbench attention-seeker in the dail and seanad...

Besides, we already know the first thing we need to do with the firearms act is push for a restatement of it, with absolutely no changes. Because right now, there are maybe three or four dozen people in the entire country who have a working understanding of the act, and none of those have a working understanding of the entire act (though they've no call to since it covers not only our stuff but the stuff you see used in criminal trials as well). I suppose it could be worse, it used to barely be a dozen at one point. But that's not because it's written in latin, it's because it's spread over 20 or so acts, dozens of SIs and then of course the non-legislative guidelines and so forth. All that has to get read into the one document, so we have one single definitive act and know where we stand; until that point, trying to fix what's broken is a fool's errand (especially since you'll need to do it after you've fixed everything anyway). There's a reason that both the law reform commission and the most reactionary high court justice I know about have both been saying the same thing about this for years - because it's an obvious, yet easily solvable problem...

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Man, I'm actually on your side.

Sometimes you just have to stop hitting your head off the wall & accept what you're given

And then they come for another bit and then another bit and another bit,and we come up with statements like yours,until the wolf is at your door and yours are gone too.Sometimes you just have to swim against the stream ...To keep what you have and that others keep theirs too in the long run.

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And then they come for another bit and then another bit and another bit,and we come up with statements like yours,until the wolf is at your door and yours are gone too.............

That scare tactic doesn't hold any water for me anymore. If they take in s/s shotguns & a bolt action .22s there will be a lot more to worry about I reckon.

The stuff the PTB have problems with make a very small % in the big scheme of things and they stand to loose very few votes. Not to mention that a lot of Joe Public think all guns should be banned & the majority of shooters don't even think lads need fullbore pistols, semi auto fullbore rifles or anything over .308 either........................so are we dealing with a few disgruntled shooters who are making a lot of "noise" and possibly trouble for the majority?

Ye will not be heroes when this goes pear shaped again :eek:

I've "lost" stuff too BTW and I made the decision I'd wasted enough money trying to beat the system.

rowa

Dian Cecht wrote: »

That scare tactic doesn't hold any water for me anymore. If they take in s/s shotguns & a bolt action .22s there will be a lot more to worry about I reckon.

The stuff the PTB have problems with make a very small % in the big scheme of things and they stand to loose very few votes. Not to mention that a lot of Joe Public think all guns should be banned & the majority of shooters don't even think lads need fullbore pistols, semi auto fullbore rifles or anything over .308 either........................so are we dealing with a few disgruntled shooters who are making a lot of "noise" and possibly trouble for the majority?

Ye will not be heroes when this goes pear shaped again :eek:

I've "lost" stuff too BTW and I made the decision I'd wasted enough money trying to beat the system.

Ahhhh the "Pull up the ladder jack, i'm alright" attitude. You also assume that lads who licence s/s shotguns and .22 rifles don't have any trouble with the ptb, i can assure you they most certainly do. More than one super will not issue a second shotgun licence for example.

Dian Cecht

rowa wrote: »

Ahhhh the "Pull up the ladder jack, i'm alright" attitude.

You must not have noticed this bit in that post

Dian Cecht wrote: »

I've "lost" stuff too BTW and I made the decision I'd wasted enough money trying to beat the system.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And then they come for another bit and then another bit and another bit

"Came for".
Yeah, you've not been listening Grizz. They don't come for anything. They already have it all. You're not in the US, you're in the ROI.

Sometimes you just have to swim against the stream ...To keep what you have and that others keep theirs too in the long run.

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

That scare tactic doesn't hold any water for me anymore. If they take in s/s shotguns & a bolt action .22s there will be a lot more to worry about I reckon.

Guess you havent been reading what Sparks has said about ALL the stuff then,and throwing others to the lions in hope they will be full when they get to you is a typical global shooters low grade tactic.
So I hope it stays VERY fine for you in the future.

The stuff the PTB have problems with make a very small % in the big scheme of things and they stand to loose very few votes. Not to mention that a lot of Joe Public think all guns should be banned &

And you really think your SXS ans BA will be acceptable to Joe and Jane Blow ???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

the majority of shooters don't even think lads need fullbore pistols, semi auto fullbore rifles or anything over .308 either.......................

.

And who died and made YOU spokesman for the Irish shooting community???
You dont speak for me,and you sound quite frankly like another part of the rumour that yet again we are being sold out by our own side with very vested intrests,and Shatters ear as there is a proposal yet again that only "olympic style pistols in .22lr ,but on a shorter list of FIVE pistols will be accepted from now on....


so are we dealing with a few disgruntled shooters who are making a lot of "noise" and possibly trouble for the majority?

Ye will not be heroes when this goes pear shaped again :eek:

I dont care about being a hero.I care about shooting the firearms I like and have paid enough for to own and keep.

I've "lost" stuff too BTW and I made the decision I'd wasted enough money trying to beat the system.

Where,what and when??? Easy to say on the net...:rolleyes:
Guess I havent wasted more than enough money ...yet to keep my stuff.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

"Came for".
Yeah, you've not been listening Grizz. They don't come for anything. They already have it all. You're not in the US, you're in the ROI.


Cmon Sparks ...you can do better than that
I am well aware I am residing for my sins on a corrupt little rock in the Atlantic that has delusions of statehood and importance on the Worlds stage,and is still shall we say diplomatically, a tad behind the times??..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

BTW could we please stop trying to compare Ireland and the USA in ANYTHING at all?? Socially,morally ,economically..Especially firearm related matters??? Its like comparing a field mouse to a blue whale.:rolleyes:

But it is great to see the good me fein and fuk you I'm all right Jack attitude alive and well in the shooting community,as usual.

I might suggest a reread of what happened to the appeasers and purists post Dunblane who thought their Olympic stuff was safe and sound in the UK... Switzerland is nice at this time of the year.:D

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

But it is great to see the good me fein and fuk you I'm all right Jack attitude alive and well in the shooting community,as usual.

It is, but you don't seem to know where in that community it lies.

"Appeasers". Would you ever cop on and grow up for a change? For a man who says he knows where he's living, you don't seem to actually know there's a difference between here and the US. They can go on and on and on with this "You get what you want by being an arsehole and headbutting people and treating them like idiots, not by working with them as though they were real people" ****e. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of this constant inability to act like grownups, I'm sick of the constant need to be fighting someone instead of actually doing the damn sport, I'm sick of the childish peevishness of it all, and I'm sick to my stomach that I wasted so many years trying to help out only to have people deliberately destroy the work of a large number of people just for their own benefit. And people like you Grizz, who open wide and swallow deep whenever they ask, don't seem to cop that they're just a slightly different flavour of "da man". It's ****ing soul-destroying to watch.

MarkWolff

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks wrote: »

"Came for".
Yeah, you've not been listening Grizz. They don't come for anything. They already have it all. You're not in the US, you're in the ROI.


Cmon Sparks ...you can do better than that
I am well aware I am residing for my sins on a corrupt little rock in the Atlantic that has delusions of statehood and importance on the Worlds stage,and is still shall we say diplomatically, a tad behind the times??..:rolleyes::rolleyes:

BTW could we please stop trying to compare Ireland and the USA in ANYTHING at all?? Socially,morally ,economically..Especially firearm related matters??? Its like comparing a field mouse to a blue whale.:rolleyes:

But it is great to see the good me fein and fuk you I'm all right Jack attitude alive and well in the shooting community,as usual.

I might suggest a reread of what happened to the appeasers and purists post Dunblane who thought their Olympic stuff was safe and sound in the UK... Switzerland is nice at this time of the year.:D

Why are you living here if you have this attitude towards this country?

Grizzly 45

MarkWolff wrote: »

Why are you living here if you have this attitude towards this country?

I bet myself last night somone would come up with this peevish sterotypical reply :rolleyes:... Belive me Mr Wolff the moment my last parent passes on you wont see me for dust in this godawful country ever again!! My biggest mistake was coming back 20 years ago out of duty to my family,nothing else.

chem

Sparks I'm sorry but you are pure Irish in your thinking. Tip the cap to the gov way of thinking. This country needs a kick up the arse, to take it into the 21st centery and in line with the rest of europes way of thinking! Ireland needs to educate its people. The small minded still rule here!

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

It is, but you don't seem to know where in that community it lies.

"Appeasers". Would you ever cop on and grow up for a change? For a man who says he knows where he's living, you don't seem to actually know there's a difference between here and the US. They can go on and on and on with this "You get what you want by being an arsehole and headbutting people and treating them like idiots, not by working with them as though they were real people" ****e.

DOUBLE FACE PALM!! Did you read my second paragraph before you threw your teddy out of the pram in the above??
I said its a pointless exercise in stupidity comparing a country of 4.5 million with draconian gun laws to a country of 275 million with appx 360 million known firearms,and a constitutional right.One is the planets hyperpower the other is a unimportant little island off the coast of Europe with delusions of being a major player in World affairs. So maybe you should take your own advice??

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of this constant inability to act like grownups, I'm sick of the constant need to be fighting someone instead of actually doing the damn sport

,

IRONY....Much????????

I'm sick of the childish peevishness of it all, and I'm sick to my stomach that I wasted so many years trying to help out only to have people deliberately destroy the work of a large number of people just for their own benefit

Thats Ireland... In any and all walks and colours.So cheer up its just reality biting you...
But dont worry ,once you are dead you will be lauded as a great man of much foresight and a terrible shame he didnt live to see his success and all the other cliches we use to describe people who tried to change the system,and were pelted with dung when they failed:rolleyes:
Us Irish prefer our heroes very dead it seems....:p:rolleyes:

.

And people like you Grizz, who open wide and swallow deep whenever they ask, don't seem to cop that they're just a slightly different flavour of "da man". It's ****ing soul-destroying to watch.

When you have quite finished with the personal abuse...
As a great man who is being buried today said;

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner."

I guess he never got to see the workings of Irish society in full when he was here,or even he was blamased by our Blarney.:rolleyes:
I've been trying this all my life here.Bit hard to do when the other side is a no compromise,because they have "Da power" so that makes them right no matter what.
A very sound ideal,but one that unfortuneatly doesnt work very well if your enemy doesnt want to listen to you or even meet you in the first place.
Something the Irish shooting community and society could try sometime maybe??

badaj0z

Sparks is right. The NRPAI sought legal advice after the 1972 one month custody order which took in the pistols and any rifles above .22LR. The advice given was that it was likely that a legal challenge under the existing laws would win, but then the laws would be changed to reestablish the staus quo or some thing worse. So, a while passed, then the challenges were mounted and won. Then the laws changed again , becoming more restrictive, were challenged and more challenges were won and here we are now. So the law may change again. Laws change to reflect the sitting government's view on public opinion. If they think that more votes can be obtained by appearing to be harder on gun ownership, then that is what will happen. We can think ourselves lucky that gun ownership and hunting in Ireland are considered to be more available to the general public than they are in the UK. All of the bluster and hard ass attitude about "taking them on" will only win a short term victory.
Amongst the ways to progress this, to the benefit of shooters, are to influence public opinion in our favor or to influence the politicians and administrative bodies in our favor. The latter supports Sparks argument about the FCP. The former cries out for the demagogues like Grizzly to stand for the Dail.