Parlimentary Questions - Pistols & license reviews.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm not calling anyone a traitor or anything like that, I'm just curious why shooters would be against other shooters having the firearm of their choice to take part in the sport of their choice?

What leads one shooter to believe that another shooter has no good reason for having a fullbore pistol?

Hate to say that but that is just downright SNOBBERY!
I guess they havent noticed that we have a few of the fox hunting and horsey crowd here betimes and that we support fox hunters on horseback,most of the times;):)Not all of us agree with fox hunting and some hate them...Why?Because we have realised that if fox hunting goes the next in line is game shooting irrespective if you wear knicker bocker tweeds and carry a Purdey or are in jeans and use a pump action.

It is irrevelant to the antis, be they anti field sports or gun ownership or people in power.Their fear is the GUN and nothing else .It doesnt matter to them in their hoplopophobic mindset the reasons it is that you have a gun and have the power of life and death with it and that scares them.
So trying to argue you have a "good gun" over a "bad gun" is an arguement if futility with a hoplopophobe. As they found out in the UK post 97.

i for one see no reason on this earth why a perfectly healthy person needs to go deer stalking with an ar clone in advantage cammo to me that's just making a statement 'i will because i can and want to ' on the other hand if someone had a genuine disability that prevented them using a bolt action rifle then that's different

Well I see no reason why a perfectly sane person needs to dress up in garb entirely unsuited to the 21st not to mind the 20th century where it went out of fashion in the 1920s and a shirt and tie to go and pay a fortune to shoot driven pheasents that have been proably chucked out of a box behind the tree line either,and speak in a plummy make belive upper Clwas Bwitish accent old chap . Or spend 30 grand on a gun that you dont dare let a drop of water get on the fine wood or worry lest it gets the tiniest nick or scratch.

If that cranks your crank more power to you and well wear.But dont ASSume you are somehow morally superior to everyone else in the field.
And as one who uses an AR modular sporting rifle.We DO like correct terminology around here thanks! I could list a dozen reasons here why I use one and prefer one to a bolt action any day.Unless I woke up in Communist N Korea this morning this was still a place where "making a statement" was still more or less permissible,or I'd rather call it using an appropriate tool for the job.

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Grizzly, I still disagree with you on most of your arguments & you've done nothing to convince me that I'm wrong

Fine,but you havent convinced anyone here that you are 100 % right either:p:p
Least of all me!:p:p:p

Dian Cecht

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fine,but you havent convinced anyone here that you are 100 % right either:p:p
Least of all me!:p:p:p

Those who agree with me are not a Bolshie as your supporters Which on reflection, goes back to the reason this thread exists I bet your supporters will be first in line to licence laser guns when the novelty of AR's & such wears off

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thanks for reminding about that one.;) How many of us was it again that did 98% of the work on that one

For the licence fee hike it was a lot more than 2%. Turns out that all these civics discussions and chats about points of legislation mean sod all, but you go for an Irish shooter's wallet and all hell breaks loose...

...and then the TDs (looking to their own jobs before an election) can actually be punted around enough to change stuff. I don't remember any other policy of McDowells being rolled back on quite so fast or quite so completely...

BattleCorp

Dian Cecht wrote: »

BC, at the end of the day we're talking about a small minority within a minority sport.....................in a seriously conservative country.

It's a minority sport because it isn't allowed to grow. The 2009 ban on new centrefire licences went a long way towards killing the sport.

And what did that ban achieve? It didn't make the taxpayers of this country any safer, it just cost them a heap of money in court.

Here is a question to Dian Cecht and Jerrystevens. Why do you think law abiding pistol shooters shouldn't have a centrefire pistol to take part in competitions with?

It's a logical question and I'm hoping for a logical answer.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

hoplopophobic

Oh sweet suffering english teachers. THAT IS NOT A WORD. Grizz, it's a made up term used to make a stupid argument sound like it has airs it has no right to.

Hopolophobe. Think about it. An irrational fear of weapons. Apart from having been invented specifically to make fun of the other side of the argument (yeah, that's a sign that your argument is a strong one), there's nothing irrational about fearing weapons, given that a weapon is something that's used to harm you. You might as well say "Oh, I have a phobia of dying".

Don't you get that when you use words and phrases like this that you paint everyone here with a brush that other people don't think much of? And that that does us harm directly?

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Those who agree with me are not a Bolshie as your supporters Which on reflection, goes back to the reason this thread exists I bet your supporters will be first in line to licence laser guns when the novelty of AR's & such wears off

My supporters????,oh so we are back to square 1,well I most heartfeltedly apologise for wishing to shoot two guns I like and forgot completely that shooting in Ireland is a most serious humourless affair and must be kept in the late 19th century or some romnatisced Dowton Abbeyesque period and where those dashed confounded semi auto pu:rolleyes:mp American things are kept off the moor and driven shoot,what what old chap!

I also most humbly apologise for wanting to use a gun design that by modern assault rifles is as dated now as anything from ww2.
And also for actually having the GALL to fight in the courts with my own money and not a hope of costs being paid out,so not inconvienceing the rest of you by misusing your tax money in recompense.

Yep very sorry for all the inconvience caused and for upsetting all and sundry..
and you can all kiss my angry,white Irish German American ass too if you dont like it!!:p:p:p

Naw...phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range is where it will be at.:pac:

Grizzly 45

For your further education and elucidation Sparks.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplophobia

Hoplophobia (pronounced HOP-li-fobia), from the Greek hoplon, or weapon, is
a phobia identified by firearms instructor Colonel Jeff Cooper in 1962. His
intent was to satirically use a clinical term to bring public recognition of
the irrational fear of firearms. He stated that "the most common
manifestation of hoplophobia is the idea that instruments possess a will of
their own, apart from that of their user".

Hoplophobia is deemed to be a cultural side effect of those who engage in
the primordial human belief systems that anthropologists refer to as
"Animism", or the belief that inanimate objects can hold spirits that can
effect human actions.


More importantly WHAT this is based on..And it wouldnt have been to inappropriate for the late Col Cooper to use it as I belive he had a masters in psychology[?]

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis".

Guess he didnt know what he was talking about either then??
But then dont worry the anti version is a Gun nut, blood moron,"big gun small penis" etc etc.:rolleyes:

yubabill1

to Charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.

A Chara,

If Minister Shatter seeks to change the S.I. regarding the above without consulting shooting representatives, Councillor James Daly will no longer have my support in Luggacurren 2014.

Sincerely

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

For your further education and elucidation Sparks.

Not so much, but thanks for thinking I haven't actually learnt all this stuff a decade or two ago...

a phobia identified by firearms instructor Colonel Jeff Cooper in 1962. His intent was to satirically use a clinical term

In other words, he made it up out of thin air to make fun of the people he was arguing against, like I said. And he was hardly just some random firearms instructor...

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud, "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis".

Freud never said any such thing, in that book or any other.

rowa

yubabill1 wrote: »

to Charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.

A Chara,

If Minister Shatter seeks to change the S.I. regarding the above without consulting shooting representatives, Councillor James Daly will no longer have my support in Luggacurren 2014.

Sincerely

charlie flanagan is no friend of ours, he did a lot of bellowing and puffing when ahern announced his intention to ban the centrefires. but did very little about it afterwards.

Dian Cecht

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's a minority sport because it isn't allowed to grow. The 2009 ban on new centrefire licences went a long way towards killing the sport.

Agreed.

As a counter argument there is currently the potential for .22lr pistol shooting to develop & grow and it hasn't taken off as it's far to expensive for most people to get involved.

BattleCorp wrote: »

And what did that ban achieve? It didn't make the taxpayers of this country any safer, it just cost them a heap of money in court.

It has stopped the proliferation of these types of firearms, which is what Ahern said he wanted. Taxpayers money is being wasted in lots of way & we don't seem to care so why would we/they care about it when it's been spent on the subsequent court cases.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Here is a question to Dian Cecht and Jerrystevens. Why do you think law abiding pistol shooters shouldn't have a centrefire pistol to take part in competitions with?

It's a logical question and I'm hoping for a logical answer.

I never said they shouldn't or that they hadn't a valid reason to have them My argument has been that if people keep taking & winning cases for them that the Minister will, and it looks likely that this is going to happen, change the law and may take the opportunity to ban other stuff while he's at it. Not fair, but neither are the hairs on my arse

rowa

Dian Cecht wrote: »

It has stopped the proliferation of these types of firearms, which is what Ahern said he wanted. Taxpayers money is being wasted in lots of way & we don't seem to care so why would we/they care about it when it's been spent on the subsequent court cases.

Stopped the proliferation of these types of firearms ? Not among the criminal classes it hasn't, people getting shot or threatened with c/f pistols everyday of the week.
Taxpayers money being wasted ? Firstly shooters are taxpayers aren't they ? Secondly it wasn't new applicants who were being refused licences and heading to court, it was people like myself who had c/f pistol licences for years, used them regularly in practice and competitions and had demonstrated a valid reason and membership of rifle and pistol club for the initial granting of the licence, then all of a sudden these reasons weren't good enough anymore, even though nothing had changed in what was required for the granting for a licence.
As for your arse, any chance of giving it a rest ?

Grizzly 45

]Not so much, but thanks for thinking I haven't actually learnt all this stuff a decade or two ago...

No worries,you could have forgottn it too with all the things you profess to know!:P

In other words, he made it up out of thin air to make fun of the people he was arguing against, like I said. And he was hardly just some random firearms instructor..

.
Oh I'm sorry.I didnt realise there was a law that stated you must not poke fun at your opponents costs in any debate,as that somehow belittles your moral position. Guess the worlds best leaders statesmen and politicans never heard of that rule either... Gimme a break man!!


[

URL="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Misattributed"]Freud never said any such thing, in that book or any other[/URL].

[/QUOTE]
WICKI Quotes???As bad a resource as Wikipedia..Honestly Sparks..:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Agreed.

As a counter argument there is currently the potential for .22lr pistol shooting to develop & grow and it hasn't taken off as it's far to expensive for most people to get involved.

Well yes it is expensive if people keep pushing for only the "pure Aryan disiplines of Olympic pistol shooting with a five grand pistol." Of course it is expensive then,but it could be started with a 200 euro or less pistol,but thats not an Olympic style pistol is it??Be like showing up at a snob shoot with a common old Webly SXS when everyone is carrying H&H or Purdey.. ...
Think ever world class Olympic pistol got a ten grand pistol shoved in their hands the first day???They started with crappy old .22,and if you have seen some of the russian training guns ,or better still Sparks can tell you all about Baikal quality control:D:D.But because of our enlightned laws we cant do that here either..

I never said they shouldn't or that they hadn't a valid reason to have them My argument has been that if people keep taking & winning cases for them that the Minister will, and it looks likely that this is going to happen, change the law and may take the opportunity to ban other stuff while he's at it. Not fair, but neither are the hairs on my arse

So IOW please dont try and follow the ligitimate course of appealing your liscenses as the status quo and elite of the shooting world in Ireland are worried that they might loose something ??So you are suggesting that for the common good we should just shut up and give up our stuff that your stuff stays safe???

I dont think I can publish a civil enough reply without getting a months ban here to that:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Kryten

22lr pistol is as inexpensive as it gets. Look at the " approved pistol list" . It contains a heap of Olympic compliant pistols for less than a grand new. At the level of Irish Olympic pistol shooting, there is no need for high end Walthers, Benellis or pardinis. Even at that none of these are anywhere near 5 grand. No need for fancy jackets, slings, Sights or any paraphernalia. Just some. .22 ammo.
Centerfire pistol is a successful and legitimate target shooting sport. There are lots of various courses of fire and disciplines popular throughout the entire world. Irish centerfire pistol shooters were meeting international successes in a short period of time and the potential was there for greatness and growth in the sport. We weren't some gung ho bunch of idiots with Hollywood aspirations of pistol shooting, but sensible passionate competitive shooters with a serious commitment to our sport. So why the f***k should we be thrown to the wolves and lose our sport because some narrow minded so called fellow shooters with no clue about our sport can feel safer about being not affected by up coming firearms laws? Show a bit of F***in solidarity.

yubabill1

Charlie is my local FG TD

If a few shooters emailed their local FG TD informing them of their concern and of how their support for their local FG councillor cannot be relied upon, I'll bet it gets noticed.

yubabill1 wrote: »

to Charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.

A Chara,

If Minister Shatter seeks to change the S.I. regarding the above without consulting shooting representatives, Councillor James Daly will no longer have my support in Luggacurren 2014.

Sincerely

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry.I didnt realise there was a law that stated you must not poke fun at your opponents costs in any debate,as that somehow belittles your moral position. Guess the worlds best leaders statesmen and politicans never heard of that rule either...

(a) I don't think, from what I've read of him, that Cooper would have appreciated being called a politician.
(b) It's not a law, it's reality. When your argument consists of poking fun at the person you disagree with, all you do is belittle your own argument. And that tars us all. In the US you could get away with it; in Ireland, it's just one more step down the road to losing our sport.

WICKI Quotes???As bad a resource as Wikipedia..Honestly Sparks..:rolleyes:

Pick up the book itself and go to page 33 so :rolleyes:

Vegeta

Kryten wrote: »

So why the f***k should we be thrown to the wolves

Ok to preface all of this, I support your position. I do not think pistols should face further restrictions. Can't make my stance any clearer.

Can I ask though, of anyone who has used that phrase, who is doing the throwing in the above statement? I would have guessed that these changes are coming about because of the court case spoken about here:

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
372. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality if he is reviewing Garda firearm license policy in view of a recent court case that granted licences which had previously been refused on the advice of Garda ballistic experts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [52971/13]

Alan Shatter (Minister, Department of Justice, Equality and Defence; Dublin South, Fine Gael)

I can inform the Deputy that my Department is examining key issues relating to firearms licensing, in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive recommendations as a result of this process in February 2014. That process will have regard to any relevant court cases.

Is it a fair statement to say that this examination (and potential outcome) is a result of the court case mentioned above?

Grizzly 45

Vegeta wrote: »

Ok to preface all of this, I support your position. I do not think pistols should face further restrictions. Can't make my stance any clearer.

Can I ask though, of anyone who has used that phrase, who is doing the throwing in the above statement? I would have guessed that these changes are coming about because of the court case spoken about here:


Is it a fair statement to say that this examination (and potential outcome) is a result of the court case mentioned above?

I think the phrase of throwing to the wolves by many is in refernce to certain posters attitudes here that somehow their segment of shooting is much pure than the rest of us rabble and that would we please shut up and stop winning cases by the prescribed legal means set out in the SIs for the "common good".
Translated..Stop rocking the boat ,as we are much more important than you oiks with your pistols and semi rifles and WE wish not to be concerned on possibly losing or having to increase our security measures.:rolleyes:

In relation to the dail question ,just too bad that the judicary agrees with us and the state cannot prove its case.Every judge from the DC up to High court has said it is bad law that helps no one[,thats the entire firearms act they are referring to.]The States rep ,who incidently put together the so called guidelines has been in attendance in every court case that I have been in this year, and has been over the country at all the other cases too.obviously he is there to see how successful or not this legislation is going to be so obviously he is reporting back on what sort of success this is,or not.

Might try to be optimistic and say that it might be that Shatter tells the AGS to cop themselves on too and to stop wasting tax payers money for their own personal vendettas against inanimate objects too.He isnt a great fan of the Comissioner either,and having to pull them out of the ****e in the last minute in the HC didnt help relations either.
But somehow I think that being too optimistic.:rolleyes:

Jerrystevens

no-one is throwing anyone to the wolves , just don't expect support from shooting people who have no understanding of what is done with full bore pistols.The question i have been asked is why is a 9mm or .40 calibre pistol needed would a 22 not do sure it's only paper targets !!!
something that is not understood or appreciated won't garner support especially when their side of things is mocked by those shouting the loudest from the other side .There is no need to lambaste others just because they are not shouting with you everyone is entitled to their opinion
I personally can see the dismay and frustration caused by a refusal of a licence for a previously held and enjoyed firearm just because of a change in policy or personnel .

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

(a) I don't think, from what I've read of him, that Cooper would have appreciated being called a politician.
(b) It's not a law, it's reality. When your argument consists of poking fun at the person you disagree with, all you do is belittle your own argument. And that tars us all. In the US you could get away with it; in Ireland, it's just one more step down the road to losing our sport.

Pick up the book itself and go to page 33 so :rolleyes:

a] Being picky and pendantic on a irrevelant point doesnt do your debating skill much favour either.

b]Rubbish from start to finish!!!

c] Agree to disagree.

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I think the phrase of throwing to the wolves by many is in refernce to certain posters attitudes here that somehow their segment of shooting is much pure than the rest of us rabble and that would we please shut up and stop winning cases by the prescribed legal means set out in the SIs for the "common good".

Ok so it is in relation to 2 or 3 posters here, got ya. Now my question is, do we really believe that anyone here can actually (throw) influence the Minister (the wolf) to do anything? My personal opinion is that it would be extremely unlikely....

But somehow I think that being too optimistic.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately I think so too

Grizzly 45

Jerrystevens wrote: »

no-one is throwing anyone to the wolves , just don't expect support from shooting people who have no understanding of what is done with full bore pistols.The question i have been asked is why is a 9mm or .40 calibre pistol needed would a 22 not do sure it's only paper targets

!!!

Going by that logic we could all manage with a .410 for ALL game shooting then as well?? Why do you need a 3.5in magnum shotgun for duck or goose hunting either. Different matches and disiplines are shot with different calibres.Not a hard concept to grasp

something that is not understood or appreciated won't garner support especially when their side of things is mocked by those shouting the loudest from the other side

Speak for yourself on that one...Generally it is accepted if you dont understand something you make an effort to get informed somewhat on the topic before opining on it.

There is no need to lambaste others just because they are not shouting with you

And no need to degneirate others or class them as inferior or troublemakers because they share a different choice of lifestyle or firearm either.

The same sun dries all our rags,dont hang all of yours on the one nail [Russian proverb]

I personally can see the dismay and frustration caused by a refusal of a licence for a previously held and enjoyed firearm just because of a change in policy or personnel .

Then try to understand why we are doing what we have legal recource to do,its not by any of our choices belive you me to have to go to the DC every 3years.:(

Grizzly 45

Vegeta wrote: »

Ok so it is in relation to 2 or 3 posters here, got ya. Now my question is, do we really believe that anyone here can actually (throw) influence the Minister (the wolf) to do anything? My personal opinion is that it would be extremely unlikely....

Persistent rumour is,that it is SOME OF OUR OWN that are whispering in Shatters ear to cut a deal so "their Sport and guns" are left alone.:mad:
Wouldnt surprise me either,plenty of Judases in Irish society cutting deals to save their own skins.:rolleyes:

Too many factors and possibilities to say what or who could be brought to bear to influence a minister.Maybe somone saw Min Shatter eating a Bacon sanger and is threatning to tell the cheif Rabbi of Ireland??:pac::D

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

certain posters attitudes here ... would we please shut up and stop winning cases by the prescribed legal means set out in the SIs for the "common good".

Are you reading this site through google translate or something Grizzly?
Nobody has a problem with people going down the prescribed legal route; the problem is when instead of using the DC for appeals as a last resort, we gather up hundreds of cases and try to use them as a stick to beat the Minister with. And skipping the legal means set forth in the Act isn't helping either (taking a chief super to the HC for a JR instead of appealing his decision in the DC isn't doing anyone any favours and can't get you the licence anyway, so why would you do it?)

Translated..Stop rocking the boat

That would be a good idea.
Real example of why: When short firearms got restricted, the original wording was going to be that an unrestricted short firearm was one that complied with the IOC's rules (which meant the ISSF rulebook effectively). No more .40s and .45s and that was bad, but we were in a bad place from the get-go. Then at the second public FCP meeting, when we should have been raising serious issues with firearms range legislation (which had the potential to shut down shooting in this country by closing ranges) and instead got all shouty about how it was not right that ISSF pistols were to be left alone and fullbore pistols banned. "I'm alright Jack" was mentioned a lot, along with elitism, "selling out", and other such fun phrases. One lad even got up and said quite loudly that ISSF was dull and boring and his 9mm pistol would fit in the ISSF measuring box and complied with ISSF rules so why couldn't he keep it? Spoke truth to power right there, so he did.

Because, you see, that hadn't occurred to anyone. No, not one person had known that this wording would lose some centerfire pistols but save the .32s and the .38s and the 9mms since they all complied with the ISSF rules. I mean, us ISSF guys don't know our own rulebook, so how would we know, and if we didn't know, how could anyone else? No, it was totally unknown to everyone in the shooting community except this lad. And noone in the DoJ knew either. I mean, they didn't know ISSF used fullbore pistols, it's not like we'd been lobbying for them since 1972 or so, it's not like we'd not been talking to them or that they'd read the ISSF rulebook off the web or had examples of ISSF fullbore pistols shown to them, they couldn't have known either. Thankfully, this gent educated us all that day, and also educated the members of the AGS who were present and who really didn't take to the idea of us owning firearms (including the lovely lady from Boston who was brought in to get rid of this awful handgun culture we were starting to suffer from). It was such a good education in fact, that that very day the phones were buzzing and by the next day the wording had to be changed. And thus we lost .32's, .38's and 9mms as well as everything else, but that was okay, because all or nothing, right?


But no, you keep on rocking that boat Grizz. I mean, it's such a good idea we have old sayings about it that we still use even though most of us will never have been in a boat ourselves...

rowa

Wasn't the move from the dc to the hc done because there were so many cases and because they were causing a backlog ? Thought it was done by mutual consent.

Sparks

Don't think you can do that kind of thing rowa. If you'd had one test case taken to the HC while the rest remained on the DC list but adjourned, maybe - but 180-odd cases on the HC diary? That's not the same ball park at all.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Persistent rumour is,that it is SOME OF OUR OWN that are whispering in Shatters ear to cut a deal so "their Sport and guns" are left alone.:mad:
Wouldnt surprise me either,plenty of Judases in Irish society cutting deals to save their own skins.:rolleyes:

Yeah, the evil bastards. I mean, they ought to be going through the FCP with the rest of .... oh, right. We don't have a way for all the shooting associations to sit down together with the DoJ anymore, and now they're all having to go meet the DoJ individually. So they're all evil bastards. Or, you know, they're all incompetent because they're not representing their members properly.

When the NASRPC did an end run around the FCP, that was being underhanded. But right now, nobody has any choice but to work their own corner.

Or should I stop harping on about the FCP Grizz since it's all ancient history and can't affect us today?

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Wasn't the move from the dc to the hc done because there were so many cases and because they were causing a backlog ? Thought it done by mutual consent.

Nope,ASFIK each case had been in the DC for hearing first.