Parlimentary Questions - Pistols & license reviews.

Sparks

I thought so to, but no, apparently several were direct-to-the-HC judicial reviews.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Are you reading this site through google translate or something Grizzly?
Nobody has a problem with people going down the prescribed legal route;

From the many posts of some people here apprently "lots" do have a problem with us doing this very thing.

That would be a good idea.

Much snippage of what happened and is now past tense and cant be undone

(including the lovely lady from Boston who was brought in to get rid of this awful handgun culture we were starting to suffer from

).

Words for her...
Pepper pellet riot gun,less leathl,rookies,lack of training, Apres baseball party match out of hand,one death, 4 [?]seriously injured by Boston PD,massive lawsuit against the city of Boston PD,Collusion,coverup,misappropriation of funds for anti gun programme with mayor, resignation,before serious public enquiry gets going,pull strings with Irish pals in AGS to get job..

Ask her to put a paragraph together of her career on those lines as Boston PD cheif....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dian Cecht

It's no wonder DOJ are treating shooters the way they are if the attitudes of some here is what they have to deal with. Petty insults & attempting to shout others down does not change peoples opinions :rolleyes:

Fortunately, what I have is VERY unlikely to be in the firing line next year. And when the proverbial ****e hits the fan and they're taking your stuff don't expect me or others like me to rally around and support you. As you said "I'll be all right Jack. Pull up the ladders". The DOJ don't need to divide & conquer................there are plenty within our own ranks doing a good enough job all on their own

Witcher

Dian Cecht wrote: »

And when the proverbial ****e hits the fan and they're taking your stuff don't expect me or others like me to rally around and support you.

Anyone else feel a tingling in their back?:pac:

civdef

What an utterly unhelpful, pointless, destructive and thoroughly demoralising thread this has (possibly predictably) turned into.

BattleCorp

Dian Cecht wrote: »

As a counter argument there is currently the potential for .22lr pistol shooting to develop & grow and it hasn't taken off as it's far to expensive for most people to get involved.

While it's not quite as cheap as getting into football, as shooting goes, .22lr pistol shooting isn't near the top end of the scale for price when you are starting off. Yes, you could buy a Pardini for €2,500 but who does that starting off. My pistol cost me €400 second hand. Fair enough, throw in club membership, insurance, and all the other bits and pieces that are needed, then it adds up. But it's far from prohibitive.

The sport is growing, albeit slowly, but it is growing.

It has stopped the proliferation of these types of firearms, which is what Ahern said he wanted.

The proliferation of these types of firearms......... ah here.

It stopped law abiding licence holders from having them. Licenced holders who have shown that they are safe and responsible with them. There is no record of a legally held centrefire pistol being used in a crime here. It didn't stop scumbags from having them. They don't give a toss about the law.

Why Ahern wanted them gone is a mystery to me. They weren't doing any harm, they weren't being used illegally and getting rid of them served no purpose only to punish law abiding shooters for no apparent reason.

My argument has been that if people keep taking & winning cases for them that the Minister will, and it looks likely that this is going to happen, change the law and may take the opportunity to ban other stuff while he's at it. Not fair, but neither are the hairs on my arse

I'll agree with you that it doesn't go in your favour to embarrass the Minister in court.

But please consider the following point.

What would you do if you bought a 9mm back when they were allowed, used it properly and for the reason you were granted it, and then, for no apparent reason, you were refused your licence renewal?

What are the options open to you?

Personally I think the NARGC shouting and roaring after the court case probably did more to embarrass (p1ss off) the Minister than the court cases.

rowa

Dian Cecht wrote: »

It's no wonder DOJ are treating shooters the way they are if the attitudes of some here is what they have to deal with. Petty insults & attempting to shout others down does not change peoples opinions :rolleyes:

Fortunately, what I have is VERY unlikely to be in the firing line next year. And when the proverbial ****e hits the fan and they're taking your stuff don't expect me or others like me to rally around and support you. As you said "I'll be all right Jack. Pull up the ladders". The DOJ don't need to divide & conquer................there are plenty within our own ranks doing a good enough job all on their own

"Don't expect me or others to rally around and support you"
well right back at you guard, read the story in the link below, maybe when the minister decides that the laws around shotguns needs tightning up you might be glad of support of fellow shooters yourself.

http://www.herald.ie/news/sick-gang-shot-horse-dead-for-practice-29849984.html

Vegeta

So rowa and Blay (as you've thanked the post) are you saying that if shotguns came under the eye of the Minister you would not support shotgun shooters because 2 lads in this whole thread don't support ye?

Is that not being a bit hypocritical?

Witcher

Vegeta wrote: »

So rowa and Blay (as you've thanked the post) are you saying that if shotguns came under the eye of the Minister you would not support shotgun shooters because 2 lads in this whole thread don't support ye?

Is that not being a bit hypocritical?

You're presuming that I'm a CF pistol shooter and not a shotgunner, when the opposite is in fact the truth.

I thanked Rowa's post not for what he specifically said but for it means more broadly speaking. If one of the disciplines I shot was stabbed in the back by one of the other shooting bodies in the future I would not support them when it was their turn to be shat upon.

Jerrystevens

what i tried to get across is that a very large % of game and rough shooters have no idea of what a 9mm/.40 or larger calibre handgun is used for or why it is needed , to all intensive purposes as far as they are concerned a .22 would do exactly the same job ie put a hole in a piece of paper .that is not a smart or arsey comment it's a genuine observation

i stand by what i said about semi automatic rifles for deer stalking , if someone has a genuine reason ie a handicap rather than just' i want it because i can and i'm going to have it at any cost ' then so be it

rowa

Vegeta wrote: »

So rowa and Blay (as you've thanked the post) are you saying that if shotguns came under the eye of the Minister you would not support shotgun shooters because 2 lads in this whole thread don't support ye?

Is that not being a bit hypocritical?

I support all legal shooting sports without question, even those which i have no actual interest in shooting or how small the numbers are that participate in them. if some shooter of air rifle field target or target rifle lost their sport , i'd feel bad for them. If we don't stick together we'll all hang together. Apparently its not like that with everyone sadly, infact quite the opposite as displayed by the two plants in this thread.

BattleCorp

Jerrystevens wrote: »

what i tried to get across is that a very large % of game and rough shooters have no idea of what a 9mm/.40 or larger calibre handgun is used for or why it is needed , to all intensive purposes as far as they are concerned a .22 would do exactly the same job ie put a hole in a piece of paper .that is not a smart or arsey comment it's a genuine observation

i stand by what i said about semi automatic rifles for deer stalking , if someone has a genuine reason ie a handicap rather than just' i want it because i can and i'm going to have it at any cost ' then so be it

Fair enough, I see what you are saying about game and rough shooters having no idea of what a 9mm/.40 or larger calibre handgun is used for or why it is needed.

But here's the thing: If they don't know much about it, why would they be against ownership of them? What harm is somebody having a centrefire doing to them?

I don't have a centrefire pistol nor do I have a centrefire semi rifle. But that doesn't mean that I'm against other lads having them if they have a legal use for them.

Secondly, on your point of having a semi centrefire rifle for stalking, you can't have one "because you can". You have to prove to the Chief Super that you need to have it. You can't get one "just because you want one."

BattleCorp

rowa wrote: »

I support all legal shooting sports without question, even those which i have no actual interest in shooting or how small the numbers are that participate in them. if some shooter of air rifle field target or target rifle lost their sport , i'd feel bad for them. If we don't stick together we'll all hang together.

I'm in 100% agreement with this.

rowa

So if you don't know what a sport or discipline consists of, rather than trying to enlighten yourself you call for it to be banned, or otherwise denigrate it ? Irish logic in a nutshell.

Jerrystevens

nobody is calling for anything to be banned either
the point was made many many posts ago that one part of the shooting community was selling out the other just because the side by side hooray henry type wasn't supporting the full bore pistol shooters
that's bollox if fairness if there is any selling out done it's been by one set of pistol shooters to another as far as i can see
if anything is true it's that a very large of shooters of whatever flavour in this country don't care about fullbore pistol shooting because they know so little about it and just because they choose not to educate themselves about something it's now their fault

Vegeta

rowa wrote: »

I support all legal shooting sports without question, even those which i have no actual interest in shooting or how small the numbers are that participate in them. if some shooter of air rifle field target or target rifle lost their sport , i'd feel bad for them. If we don't stick together we'll all hang together.

Same here and well said

Apparently its not like that with everyone sadly, infact quite the opposite as displayed by the two plants in this thread.

It's about 2 guys from the whole thread in reality, not even a majority on this thread. Frankly the guys who don't know what pistol shooting is don't have the Minister's ear and are not in a position to back stab anyone. Worrying about them is not worth your time or harbouring resentment over.

Look if I am completely blunt I think this examination by the Minister was disappointingly predictable. As soon as people caught wind of these court cases they were saying this was a strong possibility. The court case caused this examination, not anyone back stabbing. I would never blame the individual shooters in this scenario though. Not all shooters keep abreast of shooting politics and understand that court cases have a tendency to lead to restrictive legislation or precedent for us. I would however question the wisdom of the Governing Bodies who took this on, it is not their first rodeo and they would have a better awareness of what "winning" in court leads to.

So while I am a little miffed that the cases were handled like they were, against good advice and the downfall of the FCP, none of that is the individual shooters fault and they still get my full support.

Witcher

Jerrystevens wrote: »

a very large of shooters of whatever flavour in this country don't care about fullbore pistol shooting because they know so little about it and just because they choose not to educate themselves about something it's now their fault

If they're ignorant about pistols then why not just stay quiet?

Why adopt the government's rhetoric of 'Sure you don't need a 9mm, a .22 will do ya'? That's only giving the gov. ammunition because they could say 'Even your fellow shooters don't support you'.

I don't shoot deer, but you don't hear me saying 'You don't need a .308/.300WM for Irish deer, .22/250 did deer stalkers for years so that's all you can have'. If it ever came to that, I would support them unreservedly in the hope that they would do the same for me.

Vegeta

I should point out that by "cases" in the above post I do not mean individuals going to the DC and following procedure. I mean the NARGC cases.

Dian Cecht

So now we've moved on from demands to clear off & name calling to telling me & JS we're "plants" :rolleyes: I presume not the vegetable variety

Now to those who've accused me of various unsavoury things, which doesn't really bother me :rolleyes: ................... I'll ask ye a really simple question ............... where did I call for, agree to or advocate a ban on c/f pistols or rifles in this thread

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Why Ahern wanted them gone is a mystery to me. They weren't doing any harm, they weren't being used illegally and getting rid of them served no purpose only to punish law abiding shooters for no apparent reason.

Because he was the most coniving,anti gun minister since Desmond O Malley.
He went and used a murder of Shane Greghan in Limerick,with an illegally held pistol as the excuse to ban any further liscenses,not helped by the other FG bollix Mr "Ill smoke in the Dail if I like" gobbing off about the poliferation of handguns... The writing was on the wall in May of that year when Aherne said at the ASGI AGM that he would tighten up the legislation...And every man jack in the Irish sgooting scene ignored it and even derided it here on boards.

" Dont worry about it,sure they will have more to do than worry about it as the arse has just fallen out of the economy." Is one quote that sticks in my mind on this.
It was a cynical political move to show he was a big man on crime from a poisionious little cripple with an agenda,who didnt even have enough party loyalty to go down with his political ship,and lied outright to the Irish people on the bank bailout.Even the people who thought he was "their man" the AGS,he shot them in the back too,for good measure by cutting their wages and overtime bills..Poetic justice in a way that and shows you just cant trust any Irish politican at all.

Grizzly 45

Vegeta wrote: »

So rowa and Blay (as you've thanked the post) are you saying that if shotguns came under the eye of the Minister you would not support shotgun shooters because 2 lads in this whole thread don't support ye?

Is that not being a bit hypocritical?

Not really if they claim they are repersentative of "lots of Irish shooters" views.
I'll say it again for the X time.This has ALL played out in the UK post Dunblane and Hungerford...Same mindset,same arguements,and very proably the same conclusions without the benefit of some sort of UK logic or compromises.

Grizzly 45

Jerrystevens wrote: »

n

i stand by what i said about semi automatic rifles for deer stalking , if someone has a genuine reason ie a handicap rather than just' i want it because i can and i'm going to have it at any cost ' then so be it

So what in your esteemed opinion is a significant handicap to qualify them for such honour??

badaj0z

Can I suggest that the main antagonists in this thread meet in a pub in Portlaoise and argue their points with each other until a conclusion is reached? Like many similar threads before, this has passed the point where any sense is being made and just become an ego trip(and defense of the ego being slighted).
When you have met and agreed on a common statement about what happened, what it means, and what we should do about it in the future, please can you post a statement as an end to this stream of consciousness.

323

Jerrystevens wrote: »

i for one see no reason on this earth why a perfectly healthy person needs to go deer stalking with an ar clone in advantage cammo to me that's just making a statement 'i will because i can and want to ' on the other hand if someone had a genuine disability that prevented them using a bolt action rifle then that's different

Handicap? I for one see no reason on this earth why a perfectly healthy person needs so many different golf clubs to play a game. Which for most I undestand from a number of my friends means, week in week out, knocking little balls of the exact same size and weight around a course they know like the back of their hands. Making some sort of statement I guess.

Interesting though that year by year these clubs (or should I call them weapons) account for more murders in the US (and many other countries) than rifles, AR modular/bolt action or otherwise.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, the evil bastards. I mean, they ought to be going through the FCP with the rest of .... oh, right. We don't have a way for all the shooting associations to sit down together with the DoJ anymore, and now they're all having to go meet the DoJ individually. So they're all evil bastards. Or, you know, they're all incompetent because they're not representing their members properly.

When the NASRPC did an end run around the FCP, that was being underhanded. But right now, nobody has any choice but to work their own corner.

Or should I stop harping on about the FCP Grizz since it's all ancient history and can't affect us today?

Right...the FCP,the FCP,the FCP...Did you mention the FCP Sparks,oh yes you didnt mention the FCP this morning at breakfast over your toast and FCP!!!:rolleyes:
We have ALL got the point are blinded deaf and dumb that the blasted FCP was a wasted opportunity and all that.It is past,dead,done,it is no more,it is an UN FCP,Kaputt,finito, briste.
No point on you going on about it,its in the past now and whats done is done.

So yet again,without referring us back to many threads on this subject,as a cop out
I'll ask again WHAT CAN We do to get it organised and working again???
On a practical level,individuals or groups?? I and Im sure plenty of others would like to hear your solution to this problem.I'm not asking this to be narky ,but as trying to get a step forward rather than wasting bandwidth going on about the late great FCP.

It sounds like the old joke how many Irish republican folks singers do you need to change the light bulb? Ten .One to do it and nine to sing about how great the last one was.:p

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No point on you going on about it,its in the past now and whats done is done.

Can I quote that at you about IPSC?
Or would that be "different"?

I'll ask again WHAT CAN We do to get it organised and working again?

We as in you and me? Nothing.
We as in the shooting community as a whole? It'd be possible, but we'd have to ditch the shoutiness, put the worst of the tablepounders out to pasture and let cooler heads prevail. And the minute you tried that, you'd unleash a ****storm that would make this thread look mild.
And I think we both know that

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Can I quote that at you about IPSC?
Or would that be "different"?

Nice try:)...But of course you can quote me,I've accepted that IPSC is dead and gone in the ROI,and still survives in the civillised Northern bit of this land for those who want to shoot it.

We as in you and me? Nothing.
We as in the shooting community as a whole? It'd be possible, but we'd have to ditch the shoutiness, put the worst of the tablepounders out to pasture and let cooler heads prevail. And the minute you tried that, you'd unleash a ****storm that would make this thread look mild.
And I think we both know that

Maybe,maybe not,you and me are but one rod of the Fasces,but if there was another grassroots attempt on everyones respective organisation to start talking again to the govt?? More of a long shot,as of course it involve people getting over the couldnt be arsed syndrome..It would be a start,and a thouasnd mile journey starts with one step.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

if there was another grassroots attempt on everyones respective organisation to start talking again to the govt?

Not needed in almost every case; it was only the NARGC that quit the FCP.
So far as I know, the other NGBs would all be damn happy to restart it.
The problem is the one we talked about before; do you cut 20,000 hunters out o the FCP?

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Maybe,maybe not,you and me are but one rod of the Fasces,but if there was another grassroots attempt on everyones respective organisation to start talking again to the govt?? More of a long shot,as of course it involve people getting over the couldnt be arsed syndrome..It would be a start,and a thouasnd mile journey starts with one step.

The problem was too many cooks wasn't it ? Every shooting discipline has more than one alphabet soup organisation looking to get their oar in.

Grizzly 45

BillyBoy13 wrote: »

Not really. You can cut shotgun barrels in half and you get these cartridge drums or what have ya but would it really be your first choice if you wanted to go into say a supermarket and kill people. I think most people would pick the glock. I dont keep up with shootings in the US etc so I could be off the mark here but Id nearly put money on it that most of those shootings are carried out with semi rifles and pistols over shotguns.

Have you ever shot a glock or a shotgun??Which one was easier and got the most hits?? So please dont tell us rubbish that "most people" would choose a firearm that needs extensive training and practise to even get a modicoum of accruacy..
Apart from what you have seen in the media on the statistically low spectulars,the avearge day to day shooting on the streets of the US are actually cut down shotguns or cheap .22 Saturday night specials pistols.

But its totally irrevelant anyway "as the USA " is a totally different country ,and situation that is not even comparable to good old Ireland in any shape or form.In case you didnt notice,most favoured weapon in Ireland for criminal shootings is a chopped shotgun.Not so much for concealbility but for its sure chance of hitting something in the swarm of sub missiles coming out with one shot..
But I guess ,the old gunfighters,contary to much Hollywood fiction didnt bother much with fancy six shooters ,they used sawn off double barrells. Or that most US police officers take down the pump from the cruiser rack if there is a problem,and dont just rely on their sidearm??Of course they dont know jack....