S & S and class periods

gaeilgebeo

DK man wrote: »

about half of those attending wouldn't have reduced timetable or no timetabled hrs.

Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand the above part of your post.
I would not be happy at all about the lunch time meetings on both your part and as a teacher that has to cover the corridors/canteen with 570+ students minus the teachers in a meeting!
Why has no one else brought it up?
Why are the other teachers happy to do this?
Would you not consider speaking to your principal?

happywithlife

ASTI members who did not participate in supervision and substitution during the 2012/13 school year, and who wish to avail of the opt-out option negotiated by the ASTI, will have their gross salary reduced by €1,769 per annum from January 1st 2014.
ASTI members who are eligible to opt out and who wish to opt out are required to fill out a Department of Education and Skills form and submit it to the school principal. However, since this form is not yet available from the Department, the ASTI is advising members who wish to opt out to submit their decision in writing to the principal as soon as possible.
ASTI members who are eligible to opt out and who have not yet made a decision about supervision and substitution are advised to continue to do supervision and substitution and/ or advise the school principal that they are available to do supervision and substitution until they submit formal notification with their final decision.

Ok the above is from the asti website. I didn't opt in last year so presume I'm eligible to opt out.did opt in thus year in my new school though. Thing is, my current school is fine as in s&s isn't too bad, crowd control in the corridors is manageable. However it's not a given I'll have hours renewed next year so am thinking of opting out cos I've been in some right dodgy schools where s&s has been a nightmare and I'd suck up the pay cut easily enough as my pay has always varied anyway so I'm not dependent on a fixed paycheck every fortnight
..
Now if I decide to play it safe and continue to do my s&s this year and submit notice in say may that I'm opting out - assuming that the
form that is yet to be made available would have such a deadline of course- am I right in thinking from reading the above asti info that this is an option for me?
Or am I reading it all wrong?

DK man

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but I don'y understand the above part of your post.
I would not be happy at all about the lunch time meetings on both your part and as a teacher that has to cover the corridors/canteen with 570+ students minus the teachers in a meeting!
Why has no one else brought it up?
Why are the other teachers happy to do this?
Would you not consider speaking to your principal?

Home school liaison / guidance / year head / resource /


There are about 5 teachers on lunch time supervision every day

I'm not sure why no one has brought it up and I am not happy to do this but I'm on my own so after some protest and consultation with the Tui rep I reluctantly am going along with this. I did mention this to the principal and told him that we would be acting against the directive of the Tui - he more or less said that it was so hard to try to timetable these meetings and sure wouldn't it be great if we all agreed with it. At that point I went to the Tui rep and he said that the principal could do this if he liked!

km79

People on asti face book page asking about how many periods a week we now have to do and whether we are getting paid for it! Absolutely beyond belief really that people still have not educated themselves on such a career changing piece of literature . wonder whether they even voted and if so which way......

Peter Flynt

km79 wrote: »

People on asti face book page asking about how many periods a week we now have to do and whether we are getting paid for it! Absolutely beyond belief really that people still have not educated themselves on such a career changing piece of literature . wonder whether they even voted and if so which way......

These people are an embarrassment to the profession.

Peter Flynt

km79 wrote: »

Seems suspicious now that the exact date Quinn threatened to stop paying s and s is the date chosen by the union of the rollout of the new scheme. It's almost as if they were in on it together ......

I'd say the Jan 20 date was picked in order so as to help out the ASTI.

Save yourself 330 quid a year and leave the ASTI.

km79

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I'd say the Jan 20 date was picked in order so as to help out the ASTI.

Save yourself 330 quid a year and leave the ASTI.

I am .......want to leave it another month till all the ins and outs of this are sorted and to see if there is industrial action on JC reform

Peter Flynt

Does anyone know that if teacher A is substituting a class for teacher B where teacher B has taken teacher A's class on an outing. . . Is this included in the 43 hours for teacher A?

Delphi91

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Does anyone know that if teacher A is substituting a class for teacher B where teacher B has taken teacher A's class on an outing. . . Is this included in the 43 hours for teacher A?

That is not now, nor was it ever, covered under S&S - it does not cover school business, etc.

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Does anyone know that if teacher A is substituting a class for teacher B where teacher B has taken teacher A's class on an outing. . . Is this included in the 43 hours for teacher A?

This is merely reassignment and counts for nothing extra.

Moody_mona

km79 wrote: »

People on asti face book page asking about how many periods a week we now have to do and whether we are getting paid for it! Absolutely beyond belief really that people still have not educated themselves on such a career changing piece of literature . wonder whether they even voted and if so which way......

Had an adamant YES voter enraged in the staff room trying to convince her we wouldn't be paid for Sept to Dec S&S, how could people canvassing for a vote not know the details, shocking.

TheDriver

its not like this info was hidden til now!

Qwerty?

Are TUI members eligible to Opt Out of S&S if they haven't done S&S prior to this year?

teacherhead

Qwerty? wrote: »

Are TUI members eligible to Opt Out of S&S if they haven't done S&S prior to this year?

yes

gaeilgebeo

DK man wrote: »

Home school liaison / guidance / year head / resource /


There are about 5 teachers on lunch time supervision every day

I'm not sure why no one has brought it up and I am not happy to do this but I'm on my own so after some protest and consultation with the Tui rep I reluctantly am going along with this. I did mention this to the principal and told him that we would be acting against the directive of the Tui - he more or less said that it was so hard to try to timetable these meetings and sure wouldn't it be great if we all agreed with it. At that point I went to the Tui rep and he said that the principal could do this if he liked!

I would not be happy with giving up a lunchtime for meetings.
That's what HR hours after school are for.
We have a pastoral care team(about 5 staff members) but they meet during CP hours and liaise with staff at CP meetings.
Why are you meeting once a week? When do you liaise with staff re, pastoral care issues?
Your principal is taking the proverbial!

foodie86

Just wondering how are other schools now going to implement the new S & S. With us there is a fear that too many teachers will drop out and there will be too few to cover classes.

Also I have been doing S & S since last sept and I assumed I would keep the same classes I originally put my name in for and just slot in two more elsewhere, it has been suggested that all teachers must pick new classes to cover, to make it fairer on those who have never done s&s. Is this what's happening elsewhere?

Finally it has been put forward that if an agreement cannot be made management will pick the classes we cover themselves. I am off Tuesday mornings and if is the case I could be asked to come it at 9 am to cover even though I could be off.

Any insight into what others schools are doing would be really appreciated.

vamos!

foodie86 wrote: »

Just wondering how are other schools now going to implement the new S & S. With us there is a fear that too many teachers will drop out and there will be too few to cover classes.

Also I have been doing S & S since last sept and I assumed I would keep the same classes I originally put my name in for and just slot in two more elsewhere, it has been suggested that all teachers must pick new classes to cover, to make it fairer on those who have never done s&s. Is this what's happening elsewhere?

Finally it has been put forward that if an agreement cannot be made management will pick the classes we cover themselves. I am off Tuesday mornings and if is the case I could be asked to come it at 9 am to cover even though I could be off.

Any insight into what others schools are doing would be really appreciated.

This has been suggested in our place but relates to supervision only. DP timetables supervision. So far they have been good about trying to leave you free if you have a double free in the morning. A lot of parents who drop their own children to local schools for 830 do the morning slots.

I suppose it is only fair to redo it all but it is annoying for those of us who have been doing extra free work all year. I know I will be losing more frees but am happy with my supervision areas and times and will be really annoyed if I get 'worse' areas.

teacherhead

I asked teachers to.indicate 5 in September and in the event tgat the HRA was introduced we would use them.

First few weeks had a roster of 3 per week then it waschanged to 5 after HRA.

Anyone who has last two off or such generally gave other classes and we're doing ok. There is a problem on a Friday evening where I.have only one person on Rota last class, people are very good and help out if I'm stuck.

The problem is where you have teachers who dont select early morning or late afternoon - if this happens the Rota isn't sufficient to cover all absences. I think that part if the review will be to allow management to timetable as necessary for cover where there isn't enough flexibility but there will need to be a respect for people's free time.

Anyone with only one free class a day shouldby gave to give it up imo, similarly, if you are off first two it would be unfair to be rostered for the first period. I think the best outcomes will be where there is negotiated fostering and not people trying to get all their classes in the middle of the day every day. Needs to be give and take.

km79

teacherhead wrote: »

I asked teachers to.indicate 5 in September and in the event tgat the HRA was introduced we would use them.

First few weeks had a roster of 3 per week then it waschanged to 5 after HRA.

Anyone who has last two off or such generally gave other classes and we're doing ok. There is a problem on a Friday evening where I.have only one person on Rota last class, people are very good and help out if I'm stuck.

The problem is where you have teachers who dont select early morning or late afternoon - if this happens the Rota isn't sufficient to cover all absences. I think that part if the review will be to allow management to timetable as necessary for cover where there isn't enough flexibility but there will need to be a respect for people's free time.

Anyone with only one free class a day shouldby gave to give it up imo, similarly, if you are off first two it would be unfair to be rostered for the first period. I think the best outcomes will be where there is negotiated fostering and not people trying to get all their classes in the middle of the day every day. Needs to be give and take.

We are not given the option of choosing any class times that may suit us. Our slots are put on our timetable

joebloggs32

vamos! wrote: »

This has been suggested in our place but relates to supervision only. DP timetables supervision. So far they have been good about trying to leave you free if you have a double free in the morning. A lot of parents who drop their own children to local schools for 830 do the morning slots.

I suppose it is only fair to redo it all but it is annoying for those of us who have been doing extra free work all year. I know I will be losing more frees but am happy with my supervision areas and times and will be really annoyed if I get 'worse' areas.

It is not recommended to take responsibility for any one one particular area when supervising. In the event of an incident happening in your alotted zone you could be held accountable. The unions directed that no teacher be assigned a particular area for this reason

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is not recommended to take responsibility for any one one particular area when supervising. In the event of an incident happening in your alotted zone you could be held accountable. The unions directed that no teacher be assigned a particular area for this reason

We are and have always been told as such that we are responsible for anything that happens there. This gets more and more interesting .....

teacherhead

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is not recommended to take responsibility for any one one particular area when supervising. In the event of an incident happening in your alotted zone you could be held accountable. The unions directed that no teacher be assigned a particular area for this reason

You can't be every where all the time. A teacher supervising a long corridor can't be expected to be at both ends simultaneously. The idea that your corridor is your responsibility is ridiculous, you.only supervise there cos youre rostered for it, you are only responsible while you are supposed to be there. If youre not there and something happens thats s different story.

Thre is some interesting case law on this I must look it up and give you a link.

joebloggs32

teacherhead wrote: »

You can't be every where all the time. A teacher supervising a long corridor can't be expected to be at both ends simultaneously. The idea that your corridor is your responsibility is ridiculous, you.only supervise there cos youre rostered for it, you are only responsible while you are supposed to be there. If youre not there and something happens thats s different story.

Thre is some interesting case law on this I must look it up and give you a link.

That's thing, about not being there, let's say you were not for some reason, then you could be in bother

Red Waterlily

Trying to figure out how the supervision of corridors (before and after school and during break times) fits in with the new HRA arrangements. HRA only seems to mention five class periods - no mention of break times etc. I opted out years ago so can't remember what the set up was. I can't imagine that we have to nominate five periods in addition to multiples 15 or 30 minute blocks during breaks . . . yet I can't see anything in the HRA info about nominating blocks of time at breaks at all - it seems to only refer to 5 class periods. So where do the breaks come in to it? Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Peter Flynt

Many teachers take on the role (unpaid) of 'tutor' to class groups.

They should now seek to have this time incorporated into the 43 hours.

TheDriver

The scheme includes anything of a supervisory nature e.g. before school, break, after school etc hence the name.

About the responsibility, there is indeed many discussions on this in the past. There is a big difference between being in the area and hence doing the best you can do vs hanging out by the copier getting work done whilst its clear there is war where you should be. Reasonable effort to be supervising is the key....

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Many teachers take on the role (unpaid) of 'tutor' to class groups.

They should now seek to have this time incorporated into the 43 hours.

Ah in fairness Peter, you could write a list as long as you are alive of things we would like in the 43 hours but you know its never going to happen. the 43 hours are supervising or substituting but not doing pastoral care work or teaching hours

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

Ah in fairness Peter, you could write a list as long as you are alive of things we would like in the 43 hours but you know its never going to happen. the 43 hours are supervising or substituting but not doing pastoral care work or teaching hours

Then teachers should stop doing 'tutor'.

TheDriver

Indeed if they wish but its got nothing to do with the 43 hours S&S

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

Indeed if they wish but its got nothing to do with the 43 hours S&S

If a teacher is in the presence of a class for ten minutes 2/3/4/5 times a week then this counts as supervision?

Moody_mona

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Then teachers should stop doing 'tutor'.

I'm pretty sure our tutor roles I'm my school are considered contact time and included in our 22 hour contract, or is that even possible?

doc_17

teacherhead wrote: »

I asked teachers to.indicate 5 in September and in the event tgat the HRA was introduced we would use them.

First few weeks had a roster of 3 per week then it waschanged to 5 after HRA.

Anyone who has last two off or such generally gave other classes and we're doing ok. There is a problem on a Friday evening where I.have only one person on Rota last class, people are very good and help out if I'm stuck.

The problem is where you have teachers who dont select early morning or late afternoon - if this happens the Rota isn't sufficient to cover all absences. I think that part if the review will be to allow management to timetable as necessary for cover where there isn't enough flexibility but there will need to be a respect for people's free time.

Anyone with only one free class a day shouldby gave to give it up imo, similarly, if you are off first two it would be unfair to be rostered for the first period. I think the best outcomes will be where there is negotiated fostering and not people trying to get all their classes in the middle of the day every day. Needs to be give and take.

This came up at a staff meeting early in the year and our Principal asked us to put down 5 classes but was told in friendly terms that this was not acceptable as HR had been defeated. To be honest a lot of us thought it was out of order in a way to even suggest it.

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a teacher is in the presence of a class for ten minutes 2/3/4/5 times a week then this counts as supervision?

as with moody mona, tutor is completed as part of class contact time and hence not supervision. But I understand it can be as you state in certain schools.

doc_17

TheDriver wrote: »

Ah in fairness Peter, you could write a list as long as you are alive of things we would like in the 43 hours but you know its never going to happen. the 43 hours are supervising or substituting but not doing pastoral care work or teaching hours

When we have a tutor class there are teachers who may be timetabled off at that time who are tutors. This is incorporated in S&S in our school. We never batted an eyelid before HRA agreement came in and just did it. But since it came in our TUI workplace committee took it to management and said any teacher who was "free" that period and also a tutor would have the class counted as S&S and management agreed. In fairness to our management they are fairly level headed and reasonable.

vamos!

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is not recommended to take responsibility for any one one particular area when supervising. In the event of an incident happening in your alotted zone you could be held accountable. The unions directed that no teacher be assigned a particular area for this reason

How does this work in practice. 5 teachers are told just to figure it out and maintain a presence? Is nobody 'on' the canteen or outside duty? Could everyone choose to just do the calm inside areas. I know we can't be everywhere at the same time and our areas are fairly big but I know that I am in the locker room on a Monday and on the long corridor after school on Tuesday. I presume I can't be held responsible if something happens at the bottom of the long corridor when I am at the top? We have always been told that we are responsible for our area and that there will only be negative consequences if we were nowhere in our area at our designated time.

vamos!

TheDriver wrote: »

Ah in fairness Peter, you could write a list as long as you are alive of things we would like in the 43 hours but you know its never going to happen. the 43 hours are supervising or substituting but not doing pastoral care work or teaching hours

How nice and practical would it be if we had to do say half of our hours a year extra curricular, pastoral (like volunteer tutor), extra tuition after school if we wanted to. The things we already do but for them to be recognised. We could just note the dates and times and sign for them at the end of the year. I'm sure most of us would go way over but it would a) be productive and worthwhile, b) be less soul-destroying than S&S and c) recognise the extra we already give while still saving the government money by doing S&S.

Peter Flynt

If a teacher were to choose to opt out where does that leave them if they are requested, in some way, to carry out a duty for the free periods that they "paid for".

I'm considering opt out and if I do I will write a letter to management informing them of the 5 periods I am paying 1769 to be free from.

If an inspection occurs and the inspector requests to see the teacher during one of the five periods to discuss the class inspected . . What's the situation there?

Godge

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a teacher were to choose to opt out where does that leave them if they are requested, in some way, to carry out a duty for the free periods that they "paid for".

I'm considering opt out and if I do I will write a letter to management informing them of the 5 periods I am paying 1769 to be free from.

If an inspection occurs and the inspector requests to see the teacher during one of the five periods to discuss the class inspected . . What's the situation there?

Well, think logically for a change.

If you had opted in for S&S, in the way that you envisage it would work, you could be supervising a class at that time and would be unavailable to the inspector so he would have to request another time that you were available to him outside of the 5 hours.

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a teacher were to choose to opt out where does that leave them if they are requested, in some way, to carry out a duty for the free periods that they "paid for".

I'm considering opt out and if I do I will write a letter to management informing them of the 5 periods I am paying 1769 to be free from.

If an inspection occurs and the inspector requests to see the teacher during one of the five periods to discuss the class inspected . . What's the situation there?

If it were the case last year would you get that meeting put down as part of s&s?

Peter Flynt

Godge wrote: »

Well, think logically for a change.

If you had opted in for S&S, in the way that you envisage it would work, you could be supervising a class at that time and would be unavailable to the inspector so he would have to request another time that you were available to him outside of the 5 hours.

No logic there. . . You're not answering the question I asked.

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

No logic there. . . You're not answering the question I asked.

Can you answer mine

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a teacher were to choose to opt out where does that leave them if they are requested, in some way, to carry out a duty for the free periods that they "paid for".

I'm considering opt out and if I do I will write a letter to management informing them of the 5 periods I am paying 1769 to be free from.

If an inspection occurs and the inspector requests to see the teacher during one of the five periods to discuss the class inspected . . What's the situation there?

1) Covering a class of a teacher when you would be timetabled to teach anyways but the class is away is standard practice and nothing to do with S&S.
2) There should be a number of teachers rostered during a period when you are required to attend a meeting, then again its nothing to do with S&S. You are technically free and the DP would ensure they don't assign you to a duty for that period that week. It also doesn't count towards your s&s because you haven't substituted or supervised an absent teacher. Opting out doesn't mean you go writing about 5 free periods, they are all free periods and its your right to agree or disagree to meet an inspector during a free period if you feel thats how you want to play it. Writing letters like that to your Principal is futile to be honest.

Peter Flynt

TheDriver wrote: »

1) Covering a class of a teacher when you would be timetabled to teach anyways but the class is away is standard practice and nothing to do with S&S.
2) There should be a number of teachers rostered during a period when you are required to attend a meeting, then again its nothing to do with S&S. You are technically free and the DP would ensure they don't assign you to a duty for that period that week. It also doesn't count towards your s&s because you haven't substituted or supervised an absent teacher. Opting out doesn't mean you go writing about 5 free periods, they are all free periods and its your right to agree or disagree to meet an inspector during a free period if you feel thats how you want to play it. Writing letters like that to your Principal is futile to be honest.

Read what I posted again and get back to me.

seavill

Did you read what I asked you?

teacherhead

doc_17 wrote: »

This came up at a staff meeting early in the year and our Principal asked us to put down 5 classes but was told in friendly terms that this was not acceptable as HR had been defeated. To be honest a lot of us thought it was out of order in a way to even suggest it.

Look, I didn't insist on it, I suggested that people might do it and the majority did. At the time I felt it might persuade people into an anti HRA position - that obviously didn't happen. It's when you hear stories about teachers now only realising that they need to do 5 periods that highlight the need to put it in peoples faces.

In any case a few people didn't fill it in for 5, when the HRA cam in they came along and gave two more periods, no big deal. I wasn't going to fall out with people over it and I didn't.

teacherhead

Peter Flynt wrote: »

If a teacher were to choose to opt out where does that leave them if they are requested, in some way, to carry out a duty for the free periods that they "paid for".

I'm considering opt out and if I do I will write a letter to management informing them of the 5 periods I am paying 1769 to be free from.

If an inspection occurs and the inspector requests to see the teacher during one of the five periods to discuss the class inspected . . What's the situation there?

meeting inspectors is something that happens in different ways, at different times in different schools. If you want to be thorny about it and specify the times that you are unavailable that's your business I suppose but I'm not sure of the logistics of it or the legality of it.

Cartainly I'd say that your break times should be honoured but outside of that if you are being asked to meet a principal or an inspector I think that professional courtesy has to come into play at some point. For most people that is.

acequion

teacherhead wrote: »

meeting inspectors is something that happens in different ways, at different times in different schools. If you want to be thorny about it and specify the times that you are unavailable that's your business I suppose but I'm not sure of the logistics of it or the legality of it.

Cartainly I'd say that your break times should be honoured but outside of that if you are being asked to meet a principal or an inspector I think that professional courtesy has to come into play at some point. For most people that is.

I don't think he's being in any way thorny,just asserting his right to his own time when he has paid 1.769 euro for that "privilege". I can't see how that doesn't make perfect sense!

The days of professional courtesy have gone right out the window since our professionalism has been savaged. Courtesy is a luxury we no longer have because we're too frazzled trying to squeeze so much into each day.

Time to get tougher and assert our rights!

Miss Lockhart

I work in another profession and if anyone, including the equivalent of an inspector, wanted to meet me outside of contracted hours we would arrange a time to suit both of us by mutual agreement. Likewise if I as the boss want to meet a professional I employ I ask to arrange a mutually convenient time. That's professional courtesy. There is little professional courtesy in dictating a meeting time. It's not operatives on a factory line we're talking about.

Meangadh

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I work in another profession and if anyone, including the equivalent of an inspector, wanted to meet me outside of contracted hours we would arrange a time to suit both of us by mutual agreement. Likewise if I as the boss want to meet a professional I employ I ask to arrange a mutually convenient time. That's professional courtesy. There is little professional courtesy in dictating a meeting time. It's not operatives on a factory line we're talking about.

I do agree with that- I mean a bit of flexibility and common sense is important, looking at the big picture etc.

However, I can completely understand why people are getting frustrated- people who are opting out of S&S are essentially being docked pay for not availing of overtime. In no other job (that I can think of anyway) would that happen. If I was working in Dunnes, for example, and was offered overtime and turned it town, that would be it, the wages I earned up to that would be mine. In teaching, you don't do overtime and you have wages taken from you. It's ridiculous and I can understand therefore why people are reluctant to be flexible.

Miss Lockhart

Meangadh wrote: »

I do agree with that- I mean a bit of flexibility and common sense is important, looking at the big picture etc.

However, I can completely understand why people are getting frustrated- people who are opting out of S&S are essentially being docked pay for not availing of overtime. In no other job (that I can think of anyway) would that happen. If I was working in Dunnes, for example, and was offered overtime and turned it town, that would be it, the wages I earned up to that would be mine. In teaching, you don't do overtime and you have wages taken from you. It's ridiculous and I can understand therefore why people are reluctant to be flexible.

I don't disagree. I completely understand that point. The individual teacher as a professional practitioner must make and be responsible for these decisions themself. There may be a contractual requirement to meet inspectors though. But agreement on when, if outside contracted hours, should lie with the individual.

Much of the inspectorate and some of those managing schools seem to be under the illusion they are managing unskilled operatives following a list of instructions, instead of leading a group of professional individuals. Imo that is the biggest failing of schools and this disrespect and micromanagement filters down and is to the detriment of education as a whole. And professionalism is a two way street in that regard though - teachers have to act professionally, demand professional treatment and be professionally accountable.