S & S and class periods

TheDriver

Sept 2004 was the crunch date as people before this date can retire on 35/55 rule and get a supplementary state pension until old age kicks in if A prsi and D it doesn't affect.
After 2004, its a different story and basically solerina is correct, work is until retirement age AFAIK unless you have AVCs or get an acturially reduced pension. Check out CS pensions website keeping in mind teachers have slightly different terms....

Outsidethebox

TheDriver wrote: »

Sept 2004 was the crunch date as people before this date can retire on 35/55 rule and get a supplementary state pension until old age kicks in if A prsi and D it doesn't affect.
After 2004, its a different story and basically solerina is correct, work is until retirement age AFAIK unless you have AVCs or get an acturially reduced pension. Check out CS pensions website keeping in mind teachers have slightly different terms....

Did you have to have a contract in 2003 to be retire on 35/55?

I subbed in 2003.

Any idea where I stand?

(Sorry for off topic post, hardly worth a thread in its own though)

TheDriver

once you were in the system and paying pension contributions. Check your payslips or ring the Dept. Off hand, I don't think subs pay pension but correct me if I am wrong.

km79

Outsidethebox wrote: »

Did you have to have a contract in 2003 to be retire on 35/55?

I subbed in 2003.

Any idea where I stand?

(Sorry for off topic post, hardly worth a thread in its own though)

Oh God it's getting more depressing by the day. I started teaching in September 2002 but for first 3 years I did mat leaves and sick leaves. So this does not count ......?

teacherhead

I think it does count once you made contributions in that time.

My understanding is that those who started after 2004 had to go till 65 before getting a full pension. You can still retire after 40 years but if you're not 65 you cant claim full pension.

if you want to claim pension earlier it is actuarially reduced and spread over a longer time span. I'll be on a zimmer frame i'd say before I can get out.

solerina

Sorry that this is off the actual topic but just on pensions, does anyone know if you can still use your AVCs to retire early (I'm pre 2004 and would like to go at 60) because we have had 3 pension advisor men in recently and all have said you cant claim your AVCs until 68...in fairness I want them to retire early so they aren't much good to me at 68 !!

km79

teacherhead wrote: »

I think it does count once you made contributions in that time.

My understanding is that those who started after 2004 had to go till 65 before getting a full pension. You can still retire after 40 years but if you're not 65 you cant claim full pension.

if you want to claim pension earlier it is actuarially reduced and spread over a longer time span. I'll be on a zimmer frame i'd say before I can get out.

I dont think I have any of those payslips anymore. Would someone currently doing a mat leave mind checking theirs to see ?

happywithlife

mockingjay wrote: »

Do any of you know if the Department have posted the official form to opt out on yet?

Notice went up in our staff room today to say it'll be issued tomorrow

km79

km79 wrote: »

I dont think I have any of those payslips anymore. Would someone currently doing a mat leave mind checking theirs to see ?

A quick read through asti website pensions section told me that all part time work since 2001is pensionable .....as long as there was no more than a 26 week break .

teacherhead

happywithlife wrote: »

Notice went up in our staff room today to say it'll be issued tomorrow

I understand that tomorrow should see a circular on s&s and also on the alleviation of posts of responsiblity.

Re opting out I'm told that the school will receive an allocation to allow them to pay for substitution in lieu of the hours that would be due from those opting out.

Peter Flynt

teacherhead wrote: »

I understand that tomorrow should see a circular on s&s and also on the alleviation of posts of responsiblity.

Re opting out I'm told that the school will receive an allocation to allow them to pay for substitution in lieu of the hours that would be due from those opting out.

Why don't they get the teachers who are paying 1769 to give the money to their schools instead?

It would be far more honest

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Why don't they get the teachers who are paying 1769 to give the money to their schools instead?

It would be far more honest

Tax and USC issues with that solution plus allocations will have this down to a tee quickly and schools will get what they are owed.

whiteandlight

Anyone newly taking it up how are you finding it in your school? Are you regularly called for more than one?

Peter Flynt

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Anyone newly taking it up how are you finding it in your school? Are you regularly called for more than one?

Speaking to the DP in my school the situation is that every one who signs up would be requested to do the FULL 43 hours such is the demand for S&S.

That's an average of 78 minutes per week S&S over 33 weeks.

There are two non-payments here:

1 - No payment for S&S itself.

2 - No payment for being on call for the remaining time.

The DES are also untrustworthy . . .Who's to say that this demand will not be increased (with no union opposition as usual) in the future?

Nevertheless it would be very interesting to hear the views of others in the TUI who have been operating this for a while..

evolving_doors

Soo. link to the details for S&S from updated ASTI is HERE.

Don't know if it's being mentioned already (apologies if so) but 2 points that jump out at me are...

* Uncertified sick leave may now be covered by S&S and from the 2014/2015 school year S&S will be extended to cover the first day of force majeure leave.

&

* The maximum number of hours S&S to be completed by all teachers undertaking S&S during the 2013/2014 school year is 43. This means that if you have not already completed S&S in the previous term, your commitment for the remainder of the school year will be to provide up to 43 hours. This is subject to a weekly limit of 3 hours during each working week.

I normally hate emotocons but this makes me :mad:

Razorfish

Hi Peter,
TUI school perspective here. One 35 min lunchtime per week and at least 2 substitutions if not 3 per week. I'm opting out but can't do so until the circular (and form) is released. Also in my school its all crowd control so zero chance of getting your own work done during a substitution class. I'm in a disadvantaged school.

S&S appears to be very different depending on the school you teach in.

Peter Flynt

Had a very interesting one today. .

At a staff meeting the management claimed that the five S&S periods would be ASSIGNED to staff by them as follows (for the rest of the academic year) - the three already nominated with TWO more ASSIGNED by management and not nominated by the teacher.

From September it was stated that all FIVE would be ASSIGNED to the teacher.

Caused a bit of a furore - I informed them that it doesn't state anywhere in the Haddington Road Agreement that management can assign the 5 periods.

What's the situation on other schools?

Interestingly, to defend the management, it states the following on the ASTI website (13th January 2014):

ASTI members participating in S&S duties under the Haddington Road Agreement are required to be available for 5 periods a week

whiteandlight

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Had a very interesting one today. .

At a staff meeting the management claimed that the five S&S periods would be ASSIGNED to staff by them as follows (for the rest of the academic year) - the three already nominated with TWO more ASSIGNED by management and not nominated by the teacher.

From September it was stated that all FIVE would be ASSIGNED to the teacher.

Caused a bit of a furore - I informed them that it doesn't state anywhere in the Haddington Road Agreement that management can assign the 5 periods.

What's the situation on other schools?

Interestingly, to defend the management, it states the following on the ASTI website (13th January 2014):

This is an interesting one and one that doesn't surprise me all that much. I would imagine it will be clarified and confirmed in a circular in the future for operational reasons.

The reason I assume, is no one really wants to nominate last classes, particularly on a Friday and with certain types of cover required from these hours management have to have staff available at all times even the less popular ones.

sitstill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Had a very interesting one today. .

At a staff meeting the management claimed that the five S&S periods would be ASSIGNED to staff by them as follows (for the rest of the academic year) - the three already nominated with TWO more ASSIGNED by management and not nominated by the teacher.

From September it was stated that all FIVE would be ASSIGNED to the teacher.

Caused a bit of a furore - I informed them that it doesn't state anywhere in the Haddington Road Agreement that management can assign the 5 periods.

What's the situation on other schools?

Interestingly, to defend the management, it states the following on the ASTI website (13th January 2014):

Management in my school also tried to assign 2 periods of their choosing to each teacher on top of the 3 we already had. After a heated debate, they allowed teachers to volunteer 2 periods but would not guarantee that teachers would get the periods of their preference.

Razorfish

In fairness to management in my school (TUI), we got to choose our 5 periods ourselves. Friday afternoon appeared to be chosen by very few.

whiteandlight

sitstill wrote: »

Management in my school also tried to assign 2 periods of their choosing to each teacher on top of the 3 we already had. After a heated debate, they allowed teachers to volunteer 2 periods but would not guarantee that teachers would get the periods of their preference.

I suppose its not entirely fair either way. We had to re-nominate all five periods and lunchtime supervision. The board was in the staffroom and it was first come first served so if you happened to be on all classes that day or working through breaks you missed it and got screwed as there was only a certain number of slots per class period.

Peter Flynt

There is a real psychological difference I'd say with management assigning the 5 periods. . . . Effectively puts things out of the control of the teacher and makes it appear as if it is indeed a further 5 periods on the timetable.

This is something i believe the leadership of the ASTI could have deliberately hidden from teachers.

Incidentally teachers were told that the 43 hours would be made up of the following where I am:

45 minutes of supervision per week for 33 weeks with a maximum of 27 periods of 40 minutes substitution.

This would mean, on average, substitution for one 40 minute class per week with the exception of six weeks with 45 min supervision per week.

Pwpane

We were given blank timetables to volunteer our extra slots, while being asked to take into account the spread of numbers on the present rota.

km79

Any circular yet ?

endakenny

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok thanks for that..did the substitution work the exact same way under the gentleman's agreement...nominate 5 and do 3 ?

This was the reason for me being against the other voluntary stuff being thrown into croke park..once the goodwill is tied in and measured it is a mess to untangle it.. I could imagine people throwing it back in our faces too "shur aren't ye getting paid to do the extra curricular?..and the summer holidays joe..."
I suppose when you look over the long term with retirements etc. the numbers doing the S&S will gradually increase.

Just because you imagine it doesn't necessarily mean that it will happen. I believe that most parents respect their children's teachers. Generally, prejudice is the preserve of the minority.

solerina

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Had a very interesting one today. .

At a staff meeting the management claimed that the five S&S periods would be ASSIGNED to staff by them as follows (for the rest of the academic year) - the three already nominated with TWO more ASSIGNED by management and not nominated by the teacher.

From September it was stated that all FIVE would be ASSIGNED to the teacher.

Caused a bit of a furore - I informed them that it doesn't state anywhere in the Haddington Road Agreement that management can assign the 5 periods.

What's the situation on other schools?

Interestingly, to defend the management, it states the following on the ASTI website (13th January 2014):

Is this definite because at our staff meeting on Tuesday the Principal also stated that management would assign two extra periods to those who were already part of S&S and assign 5 to those who weren't...unfortunately no one said anything....If I was certain they couldn't do this then I will speak up, but I want to be sure first, I def dont want them to just assign the periods, that would be making bad things much worse imo

Razorfish

According to HR, teachers nominate all 5 periods of their choosing. That's what has operated in my school (TUI) since the new S&S scheme has been in operation since October.

I think if management are allowed to assign periods now, it'll set a precedent for the future operation of the new S&S scheme.

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

Just because you imagine it doesn't necessarily mean that it will happen. I believe that most parents respect their children's teachers. Generally, prejudice is the preserve of the minority.

I agree but politicians appeal to the general population and not just parents. Hence the recent appeasement to the 'underperforming teachers' ' debate' at the start of the new year..notice 3 politicians and newspaper referred to teachers when they were talking about introducing bonuses..when every teacher damm well knows its unworkable...but yet the teaching profession was persistently placed in the middle of the kite flying.
I'd agree that parents are generally ok...however if extra curricular is tied into sands then -as someone else pointed out - the vocational/goodwill aspect to teaching will be discounted as its ' part of our job'. Before SandS was largely done by goodwill but once it was measured and tied into wages then it's becoming impossible to untangle in a fair manner.
Notice when RQ was talking about the new JC he mentioned that students should get credits from things like the Young Scientists. Same mistake again...it just kills the spirit of the task... They/we do it for it's intrinsic value...not for 'credits'.

ethical

Is it not the cart before the horse again in our dear old banana republic! The Dept are to issue a circular on Monday next,the ASTI are having a CEC meeting on Saturday............................yet the dear old teachers have to decide whither to opt in or out by tomorrow Friday! Laughable if it was not so serious...........and JMB propaganda has appeared on our noticeboards telling us same! Cronies will be catered for and any good ,law abiding teacher will be put in the last slot on Friday for S and S by incompetent management!

solerina

Razorfish wrote: »

According to HR, teachers nominate all 5 periods of their choosing. That's what has operated in my school (TUI) since the new S&S scheme has been in operation since October.

I think if management are allowed to assign periods now, it'll set a precedent for the future operation of the new S&S scheme.

I hope that's the case cause the idea of management choosing the slots for you is a disaster..I have first class off on a Wednesday...the only class I have off that day and it looks like it could possible be selected as one of my extra slots as the DP was saying today that the needed to have good availability for 9am....I wouldn't normally mind but as I have a full day after that class its time to get organised, photocopy etc


below is from ASTI Site...doesn't help a lot though, would like clarification on whats in bold


Schools will operate two rotas for S&S: one for supervision and one for substitution. Teachers should be consulted in drawing up both the supervision and substitution rotas.

A teacher will be placed on the substitution rota for 5 class periods per week and may be called upon to substitute for any of these periods, subject to their overall weekly and yearly S&S commitment cap.

A teacher will also be placed on the supervision rota, which can include lunchtime, breaks, and morning and evening supervision and will be called upon to supervise during their allotted period, subject to their overall weekly and yearly S&S commitment cap.

You will, therefore, know in advance when you will be called upon to supervise. You will also know when you might be called upon to substitute, but you may not be required to do so at these times each week because other teachers may be called upon for those times or your yearly/weekly cap may have been exhausted.

Peter Flynt

This is what the HRA states. .

"The requirement that a teacher be available for three timetabled class periods per week will be increased to five class periods per week."

Teachers are to make themselves available. . . . It's not for management to do it.

rafared

These classes have to be agreed by consensus. You cannot be forced into doing classes at times you do not want to do.
I'm a TUI school and currently I get 2-3 classes a week and a 15min pre school on Thursday. It is almost the norm now that I have a full day Monday and a full day Friday.

For anyone who knows do Principals, Dept Principals and Guidance Counselors have to do S and S classes?

Razorfish

TUI Website:

"Teachers will be required to indicate availability for substitution for 5 classes per week"

Teachers indicate availability, shouldn't be foisted on you be management.

Peter Flynt

rafared wrote: »

For anyone who knows do Principals, Dept Principals and Guidance Counselors have to do S and S classes?

They are NOT excluded from S&S under Haddington Road.

Of course they could always exclude themselves deliberately and let their staff assume that they've taken the opt out and paid the 1769.

rafared

Peter Flynt wrote: »

They are NOT excluded from S&S under Haddington Road.

Of course they could always exclude themselves deliberately and let their staff assume that they've taken the opt out and paid the 1769.

Thanks Peter. The two GC's in out place do not do S and S. We have two DP's and I have never ever seen either supervise a class in 12 years in my current school. Funnily I have asked around and nobody else can remember them doing the classes either. I was totally bent over a barrel to provide the 5 slots(along with many others) while others get away with not complying with the scheme.
I also asked one of our GC's if she was enjoying her S and S classes recently and she replied "I wasn't asked to get involved".

teacherhead

Good to see a change of approach on the forum, the bitterness has extended to guidance teachers now also...who will we vilify next.

our guidance teacher spends 11 hours in the classroom with the rest for guidance, its all we can manage with our allocation not quite a cushy number when the school is expected to provide 'Appropriate guidance'. She does s&s also.

id like to think that people could have empathy for their colleagues.

re: management assigning classes there has to be some consensus about it. I don't think that its right or fair to assign classes at will. Equally i don't think its fair to label management as incompetent for assigning or seeking to assign a person to cover an absence last class on Friday. Absent teachers don't come back for last class to cover it so someone has to do it.

i think its preferable to arrange it by consent but if a whole staff refused to give afternoon slots there has up be a mechanism to fill them.

TheDriver

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Of course they could always exclude themselves deliberately and let their staff assume that they've taken the opt out and paid the 1769.

It is actually ironic that I have heard no P/DP with this idea yet the conspiracy theorists have all the good ones....

The S&S timetable is difficult to predict at moment as the CL49 circular is unconfirmed at moment and whether schools will continue to receive so at this stage the complete TT must be filled by S&S until that outcome is known. I'm sure the circular will clarify.

And yes, P, DP, GC all in the HRA unless they opt out and I have done a mountain of S&S already as has many more P/DP that I know.

solerina

I know in my school the Principal, D.P and Guidance Counsellor have always been involved in the S&S scheme and I reckon none of them can buy their way out as I don't remember any stage when they weren't in the scheme so they must be part of the pensionable group and so ineligible to opt out.

Pwpane

teacherhead wrote: »

id like to think that people could have empathy for their colleagues.

re: management assigning classes there has to be some consensus about it. I don't think that its right or fair to assign classes at will. Equally i don't think its fair to label management as incompetent for assigning or seeking to assign a person to cover an absence last class on Friday. Absent teachers don't come back for last class to cover it so someone has to do it.

i think its preferable to arrange it by consent but if a whole staff refused to give afternoon slots there has up be a mechanism to fill them.

By 'whole staff' do you mean including management?

If even the management refuse to fill the last-class-on-Fri slot, then surely that's the time to pay someone to do it?

teacherhead

Pwpane wrote: »

By 'whole staff' do you mean including management?

If even the management refuse to fill the last-class-on-Fri slot, then surely that's the time to pay someone to do it?

yes i do mean management, that's two people in most schools (by the standard used here to label management that is). 5 days in a week, 5 last classes, the principal and deputy cant do it all.

how do you pay someone if you don't have the money? It seems that many people have a point of view that doesn't take account of reality.

Pwpane

teacherhead wrote: »

yes i do mean management, that's two people in most schools (by the standard used here to label management that is). 5 days in a week, 5 last classes, the principal and deputy cant do it all.

how do you pay someone if you don't have the money? It seems that many people have a point of view that doesn't take account of reality.

I didn't suggest that the principal and deputy should 'do it all'. Last class on Fri is one slot a week, between two people. I say two people because that's the way it is in many schools. It shows no empathy for colleagues for management to assign this class to someone else when they don't want to do it themselves.

Have you information that there will be no money for any S&S regardless of numbers of teachers opting out?

TheDriver

Pwpane wrote: »

I didn't suggest that the principal and deputy should 'do it all'. Last class on Fri is one slot a week, between two people. I say two people because that's the way it is in many schools. It shows no empathy for colleagues for management to assign this class to someone else when they don't want to do it themselves.

Have you information that there will be no money for any S&S regardless of numbers of teachers opting out?

I would happily do last class in the day as I have done. I am in school after end of day anyways so it makes no difference except trouble and incidents etc always occur in the latter part of the day and its prudent to be available to sort out issues/dossing/pupils wandering etc.

worseforwear

solerina wrote: »

I know in my school the Principal, D.P and Guidance Counsellor have always been involved in the S&S scheme and I reckon none of them can buy their way out as I don't remember any stage when they weren't in the scheme so they must be part of the pensionable group and so ineligible to opt out.

Unless they hadnt done it for a year before they became P or DP

worseforwear

Pwpane wrote: »

I didn't suggest that the principal and deputy should 'do it all'. Last class on Fri is one slot a week, between two people. I say two people because that's the way it is in many schools. It shows no empathy for colleagues for management to assign this class to someone else when they don't want to do it themselves.

Have you information that there will be no money for any S&S regardless of numbers of teachers opting out?

Its not that they don't want to do it themselves but you have take into consideration that the dp may have class anyway and there are always issues to be sorted out late in the day, meetings to be had, phone calls to be returned along with a multitude of other tasks.
There is no information that money will be made available to pay external supervisors to replace teachers opting out. And schools have not been given any money to pay these people since sept either, they have had to be paid from school funds. Its all up in the air yet.
Guess who has been filling in the gaps in the meantime incase the school doesn't get the money.?
Yep the p and dp.
Last week , Dp alone covered 12 periods and 2 days on the yard.

Peter Flynt

My understanding is that schools will be re-imbursed 1769 for each full time teacher that opts out of S&S. . . . So effectively the teacher is paying the school with the DES acting as some sort of go-between.

The situation here is that no where in the Haddington Road Agreement does it give management the right to choose the 5 periods for a teacher doing substitution.

The argument from management is that they won't have anyone first class Monday or last class Friday. . . . .So they should assign the classes.

Well I've news for any management - Teachers are there to serve their students . . . Not Management. If you cannot get anyone for a particular period then employ someone to do it using the money given by the DES.

It should be up to the teacher to decide these periods based on the time available to them to carry out their out of class duties so as to serve their students.

solerina

worseforwear wrote: »

Unless they hadnt done it for a year before they became P or DP

They have both been in the school (as P and DP) since S&S came in and have both done it every year so they cannot opt out !!

worseforwear

Peter Flynt wrote: »

My understanding is that schools will be re-imbursed 1769 for each full time teacher that opts out of S&S. . . . So effectively the teacher is paying the school with the DES acting as some sort of go-between.

The situation here is that no where in the Haddington Road Agreement does it give management the right to choose the 5 periods for a teacher doing substitution.

The argument from management is that they won't have anyone first class Monday or last class Friday. . . . .So they should assign the classes.

Well I've news for any management - Teachers are there to serve their students . . . Not Management. If you cannot get anyone for a particular period then employ someone to do it using the money given by the DES.

It should be up to the teacher to decide these periods based on the time available to them to carry out their out of class duties so as to serve their students.

Why is that your understanding? Is it official and if so can you post that information?
If not, there's no point in stating what should or shouldn't be done.
I agree that its up to teachers which classes want to assign, I've no problem with that.
But I don't think that the P and DP should be expected to cover all the gaps themselves. It's not much use having 4 or 5 teachers availabe for one period and none for the next 2.
Picture this....
Youve organised a field trip or some other activity ...yourself and another teacher going ...bus waiting outside. All periods are covered and everything is good to go. Another teacher rings in sick (uncertified) .... guess what? ....the trip youve spent time organising has to be cancelled last minute because there isn't enough cover. You can't get external cover because as it stands, you cant say if they will be paid or not.
What's your news for Management on that one?

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

My understanding is that schools will be re-imbursed 1769 for each full time teacher that opts out of S&S. . . . So effectively the teacher is paying the school with the DES acting as some sort of go-between.

The situation here is that no where in the Haddington Road Agreement does it give management the right to choose the 5 periods for a teacher doing substitution.

The argument from management is that they won't have anyone first class Monday or last class Friday. . . . .So they should assign the classes.

Well I've news for any management - Teachers are there to serve their students . . . Not Management. If you cannot get anyone for a particular period then employ someone to do it using the money given by the DES.

It should be up to the teacher to decide these periods based on the time available to them to carry out their out of class duties so as to serve their students.

Where did you get the info about the school being paid the money?

teacherhead

I posted about the money a few days ago, i was told it by a union official who had seen the draft circular.

i think we will find that there will be sone negotiations around the implementation of the circular.

if nobody opts out and you have no money how do you pay someone to sub? There needs to be an understanding on both sides.

worseforwear

teacherhead wrote: »

I posted about the money a few days ago, i was told it by a union official who had seen the draft circular.

i think we will find that there will be sone negotiations around the implementation of the circular.

if nobody opts out and you have no money how do you pay someone to sub? There needs to be an understanding on both sides.

Id agree that's what will probably happen. But that's no comfort in the mean time. Just wish the would sort it out.
If no teachers opted out, schools would still need an amount of money to pay others to step in when needed.
It hasn't been thought through at all.
How has it been working in ETB schools so far?