Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

FameHungry

It is beyond a joke how this subject is still compulsory. Irish is a useless subject and an irrelevant language, go away with your "heritage" ****e.
We should have the choice to do something useful like I.T skills.

banquo

Option A: Keep it as compulsory, but revamp the course instead of pandering to a teacher's union that doesn't want to have to change the course.

Option B: Make it optional

Option C: Continue failing to teach Irish to keep happy the people who believe it's important we all understand Irish.

Yeah, Option C sounds like it makes the most sense.

freedominacup

nino1 wrote: »

Yeah and then after 13 years of learning the language you might even be able to put two sentences together

But then again you almost certainly wouldn't. The Irish language is in a permanent vegetative state, there is no hope of recovery, the only thing that is keeping any signs of life apparent is cash. You have gaelgoirs hovering around the body like some demented grieving mother convincing themselves that every tiny involuntary nervous twitch is absolute prrof that the patient can recover. It's time the rest of us manned up and pulled the plug and allowed Irish go the same way as 80 to 95% (depending on who you talk to) of the languages there have every been have gone and the same way as over 80% of the languages currently spoken are going. Irish is going to be one of the languages that dies out every two weeks over the next 100 years. How much are we willing to spend to delay this for how long? because all we are doing is trying to keep the tide out with a bucket.

freedominacup

Stained Class wrote: »

Millions (of mine & thousands of others money)spent & for what???????

Is that you Michael? Millions of your money and thousands of everyone elses. I doubt you're the only one who has ever paid a million plus in tax:p.

Carlos Orange

freedominacup wrote: »

But then again you almost certainly wouldn't. The Irish language is in a permanent vegetative state, there is no hope of recovery, the only thing that is keeping any signs of life apparent is cash. You have gaelgoirs hovering around the body like some demented grieving mother convincing themselves that every tiny involuntary nervous twitch is absolute prrof that the patient can recover. It's time the rest of us manned up and pulled the plug and allowed Irish go the same way as 80 to 95% (depending on who you talk to) of the languages there have every been have gone and the same way as over 80% of the languages currently spoken are going. Irish is going to be one of the languages that dies out every two weeks over the next 100 years. How much are we willing to spend to delay this for how long? because all we are doing is trying to keep the tide out with a bucket.

That seems to be viewing language as being one extreme or the other.
Is there any reason it wouldn't just continue as what it is i.e. a minority language spoken by a small number of people?

JK91

Optional. I believe all languages should be respected and preserved (even if only in academia and museums), but a language should always be optional to learn. Force it on people and it will just breed resentment, and also in people who may otherwise have taken an interest in the language on their own initiative but because of the educational system want nothing to do with it.

freedominacup

psinno wrote: »

Is there any reason it wouldn't just continue as what it is i.e. a minority language spoken by a small number of people?

That is not what it is. Languages are either growing or dying. Irish is dead, has been for a century, cash is acting as a life support keeping basic signs of life active remove the cash and it will be gone.

Chris The Hacker

I'd rather work towards making English a universal language.

Wibbs

freedominacup wrote: »

That is not what it is. Languages are either growing or dying. Irish is dead, has been for a century, cash is acting as a life support keeping basic signs of life active remove the cash and it will be gone.

I disagree. Yes the language has been in sharp decline since around 1800 with some major drops downward since(EG the Famine), however it has remained pretty stable for the last 30 years. Yes it's most certainly a minority language, but it's not dead or dying.

Alf Veedersane

Chris The Hacker wrote: »

I'd rather work towards making English a universal language.

I'd rather work towards making Irish people who have it as their first language capable of using it.

But they do be busy trying to study for the more importanter subjects.

TPfeather

The board of education needs the hire Benny the polyglot to design a syllabus for language learning.

aidan24326

Whatever about it being compulsory in school, it's just plain daft that a student can be denied entry to a 3rd level course for failing Irish, where the Irish language has absolutely no relevance to the course material (which would be true of almost all 3rd level courses bar a small few).

Making Irish compulsory like this is just trying to 'keep the language alive' by shoving it down people's throats. Change the curriculum, make it more interesting and relevant, make it optional and then see how many students will want to study it at second level. With a more interesting curriculum in place I'm guessing enough people will still choose it and you won't be forcing an unnecessary language on those who are not interested.

Green Giant

Optional

The poster above makes some very good points.

I'm all for the native language of this country being taught up to Leaving Cert level and it would be a shame to see that change.

What does need to change is the structure of the course. Maybe it has been altered in the 8 years since I did the LC, but at that time there was an entire paper dedicated to completely irrelevant things such as poetry, stories and the old favourite 'Stair na Gaeilge'

I believe that a lot of young people in Ireland dislike the language because of having this outdated material shoved down their throats. Ironically, I even said as such in my Irish oral. If Irish was taught in the same way as French, German, etc. - i.e. by putting emphasis on learning the language for everyday use, particularly when visiting a region in which it is the native tongue - I think there would be considerably less antipathy towards it.

Sin é

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'd rather work towards making Irish people who have it as their first language capable of using it.

But they do be busy trying to study for the more importanter subjects.

If they have it as theire first lanaguge, they're already capable of using it.

Iwasfrozen

Green Giant wrote: »

The poster above makes some very good points.

I'm all for the native language of this country being taught up to Leaving Cert level and it would be a shame to see that change.

What does need to change is the structure of the course. Maybe it has been altered in the 8 years since I did the LC, but at that time there was an entire paper dedicated to completely irrelevant things such as poetry, stories and the old favourite 'Stair na Gaeilge'

I believe that a lot of young people in Ireland dislike the language because of having this outdated material shoved down their throats. Ironically, I even said as such in my Irish oral. If Irish was taught in the same way as French, German, etc. - i.e. by putting emphasis on learning the language for everyday use, particularly when visiting a region in which it is the native tongue - I think there would be considerably less antipathy towards it.

Sin é

It will be taught up to leaving cert level, it just won't be compulsory. win win.

Jester252

Wibbs wrote: »

I disagree. Yes the language has been in sharp decline since around 1800 with some major drops downward since(EG the Famine), however it has remained pretty stable for the last 30 years. Yes it's most certainly a minority language, but it's not dead or dying.

While the language has remained stable for the last 30 years you can't overlook that the government has it on a sudo-life support. If the money that is being pumped into promoting the language or grants/befits for using the language where cut Irish will suffer. How many students would sit the LC through Irish if there where no bonus marks?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jester252 wrote: »

While the language has remained stable for the last 30 years you can't overlook that the government has it on a sudo-life support. If the money that is being pumped into promoting the language or grants/befits for using the language where cut Irish will suffer. How many students would sit the LC through Irish if there where no bonus marks?

Funding arts and cultural aspects is one of any government's roles - nto just langauge. I'd argue, despite not being a fan of the langauge, that funding it's future is as important as funding the Natural History Museum or the Natinoal Gallery of Ireland.

I do wish they'd fund it outside of education though, and target audiences not alredy speaking the it.

dlouth15

What those advocating compulsory Irish and other artificial props to the language need to realise is that since the foundation of the State, this approach has been a dismal failure. We've had in the past the requirement of Irish as entry to the civil service, the requirement of passing Irish to obtain a leaving cert. Presently we still require Irish to enter certain universities regardless of what the student will study there. Passing an exam in Irish can still enhance your promotion prospects, regardless of your area of work, in the civil service.

What the compulsarians need to realise is that none of these measures have worked or are likely ever to work. Ireland is a case study in how not to promote a language. The measures described above are all about rewarding those who already have some competence in the language but do little to encourage genuine interest in others. And if someone grudgingly puts a bit of work into the subject in order to get into college, having achieved that goal, they are not going to want to have much to do with the language after that.

I don't have any great interest in seeing the Irish language widely spoken, but if I did I would definitely remove these artificial props and in particular compulsory leaving cert Irish. Concentrate resources on very early stage primary school and ideally pre-school when children naturally acquire languages. Let them then choose Irish in the leaving cert if they so wish.

on the river

Optional

dlouth15 wrote: »

What those advocating compulsory Irish and other artificial props to the language need to realise is that since the foundation of the State, this approach has been a dismal failure. We've had in the past the requirement of Irish as entry to the civil service, the requirement of passing Irish to obtain a leaving cert. Presently we still require Irish to enter certain universities regardless of what the student will study there. Passing an exam in Irish can still enhance your promotion prospects, regardless of your area of work, in the civil service.

What the compulsarians need to realise is that none of these measures have worked or are likely ever to work. Ireland is a case study in how not to promote a language. The measures described above are all about rewarding those who already have some competence in the language but do little to encourage genuine interest in others. And if someone grudgingly puts a bit of work into the subject in order to get into college, having achieved that goal, they are not going to want to have much to do with the language after that.

I don't have any great interest in seeing the Irish language widely spoken, but if I did I would definitely remove these artificial props and in particular compulsory leaving cert Irish. Concentrate resources on very early stage primary school and ideally pre-school when children naturally acquire languages. Let them then choose Irish in the leaving cert if they so wish.

You should not have to "choose" your national hertiage. Irish must remain compulsery . A better system for learning Irish will allow children have a fondness of their native tongue.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

on the river wrote: »

You should not have to "choose" your national hertiage. Irish must remain compulsery . A better system for learning Irish will allow children have a fondness of their native tongue.

Of course you should choose! Being born into something does not imply living a life by it, in the same way that being born a Catholic does nto mean you have to remain a Ctholic for the rest of your life!

We grow up, we have different experiences we choose somethign we relate to and compulsory Irish is not going to change this.

Jester252

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Funding arts and cultural aspects is one of any government's roles - nto just langauge. I'd argue, despite not being a fan of the langauge, that funding it's future is as important as funding the Natural History Museum or the Natinoal Gallery of Ireland.

I do wish they'd fund it outside of education though, and target audiences not alredy speaking the it.

I never said they should cancel the funding for Irish based project. I was point out that with out funding or support Irish will suffer. I do find it idiotic that students get bonus marks in the LC for doing it through Irish. Why not give the same for people doing through Chinese or Polish?

dlouth15

on the river wrote: »

You should not have to "choose" your national hertiage. Irish must remain compulsery . A better system for learning Irish will allow children have a fondness of their native tongue.

Right. Your national heritage is not your national heritage unless it is forced.

No wonder it has been such a great success to date.

on the river

Optional

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But you do choose. In the same way you choose a religion (or lack thereof). Being born into something does not imply living a life by it and compulsory Irish is not going to do a blind thing to change this.

you are saying that you are ashamed of been Irish . That is the problem some people with this mentality who want the language to fail miserably. Without co operation and reform irish will be no more. when that happens no more jobs for people in the gaeltacht regions university graduates and gael scoiles. It seems that what you want make people redundent.

Iwasfrozen

on the river wrote: »

you are saying that you are ashamed of been Irish .

Nope but I'm ashamed of this mentality.

on the river wrote: »

That is the problem some people with this mentality who want the language to fail miserably. Without co operation and reform irish will be no more. when that happens no more jobs for people in the gaeltacht regions university graduates and gael scoiles. It seems that what you want make people redundent.

That's really not our problem. They choose their own degree.

aidan24326

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I do wish they'd fund it outside of education though, and target audiences not alredy speaking the it.

Target them for what though? What exactly would you be trying to achieve?

If someone wants to learn Irish they can go ahead and do so, same as for any other language.

I don't see why the government should be looking to 'target' people so as to encourage them to learn a language that is no longer of any real use.

Right now there is a bunch of people sitting in an EU office in Brussels translating documentation and audio transcripts into Irish, no doubt at significant cost. Same is happening in Government departments here. And will anybody ever have any need for these translations? No. It must be one of the most pointless jobs you could do and not to mention a total waste of money. That's what the Gaeilgeoir lobby have given us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

on the river wrote: »

you are saying that you are ashamed of been Irish .

No, I'm not saying that. You're saying that.

on the river

Optional

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that. You're saying that.

Really then why is your username mocking past cheiftans and areas. Why do you continue to have a alternative of abandonment of your native tongue. So ya your not a proud Gael afterall.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

on the river wrote: »

Really then why is your username mocking past cheiftans and areas. Why do you continue to have a alternative of abandonment of your native tongue. So ya your not a proud Gael afterall.

The username is a pisstake on a TV show called "Friends" and a movie called "Highlander", neither of which have anything to do with being Irish, either positive or negative.

If you think my user name as a valid reason for compulsory Irish, or is a valid argument for sticking with the factors of your initial status of Birth and ignoring those of your personal experience, you're going to have to come up with something a bit more susbtantial.

shruikan2553

on the river wrote: »

Really then why is your username mocking past cheiftans and areas. Why do you continue to have a alternative of abandonment of your native tongue. So ya your not a proud Gael afterall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txmd5trrv6c

I always assumed this is what the username refers to. To abandon your native tongue would you not need to speak it in the first place?

Akarinn

Optional

Townies and dubs would want it optional.. But yet they all would be moaning about england stealing our counties rubbish. But yet not want to reserve any of the heritage that we have left. Quit complaining about it, i did irish in LC and so did the rest of the country and we got on fine.

All just comes down to people being lazy.

Carlos Orange

on the river wrote: »

You should not have to "choose" your national hertiage. Irish must remain compulsery . A better system for learning Irish will allow children have a fondness of their native tongue.

Irish isn't my native language. It isn't many peoples native language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Akarinn wrote: »

Townies and dubs would want it optional.. But yet they all would be moaning about england stealing our counties rubbish. But yet not want to reserve any of the heritage that we have left. Quit complaining about it, i did irish in LC and so did the rest of the country and we got on fine.

All just comes down to people being lazy.

Not wanting to research the subject or listen to peoples' arguments is what's "lazy".

Akarinn

Optional

Doesnt matter if your polish or Russian or any other nationality. You should still have to take up Irish as a subject. I didn't like learning french but i was made to.

Once again.. down to people being lazy.

Iwasfrozen

Akarinn wrote: »

Townies and dubs would want it optional.. But yet they all would be moaning about england stealing our counties rubbish. But yet not want to reserve any of the heritage that we have left. Quit complaining about it, i did irish in LC and so did the rest of the country and we got on fine.

All just comes down to people being lazy.

No it comes down to freedom of cultural and linguistical identity. Two concepts that clearly go over your head.

shruikan2553

Akarinn wrote: »

Doesnt matter if your polish or Russian or any other nationality. You should still have to take up Irish as a subject. I didn't like learning french but i was made to.

Once again.. down to people being lazy.

You really dont want to start a "this is what happened to us in school therefore it is ok" argument. Especially not in terms of Irish schools.

Nobody is forced to learn French, never knew a time it was forced on people. Im assuming you can speak French, German, Spanish and have several phds or are you lazy too?

Akarinn

Optional

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it comes down to freedom of cultural and linguistical identity. Two concepts that clearly go over your head.

Your clearly not Irish and if you are your not proud of your heritage.

Akarinn

Optional

I was forced to learn another language to get into 3rd level. If we are going to question Irish as a subject, then why not maths? I have never used half of the crap that we had to learn in 2nd level, nor any history.. Business studies.. woodwork.. CSPE, SPHE.. So get a grip.

So really why should be try to educate ourselves at all if its all pointless down the line. You have to sit through these subjects for all of 5 years.. and its not even hard. Quit complaining.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Akarinn wrote: »

I was forced to learn another language to get into 3rd level. If we are going to question Irish as a subject, then why not maths? I have never used half of the crap that we had to learn in 2nd level, nor any history.. Business studies.. woodwork.. CSPE, SPHE.. So get a grip.

So really why should be try to educate ourselves at all if its all pointless down the line. You have to sit through these subjects for all of 5 years.. and its not even hard. Quit complaining.

It is all pointless down the line. That's the problem. That's why people are complaining. Why not spent the time doing somethign useful?

Iwasfrozen

Akarinn wrote: »

Your clearly not Irish and if you are your not proud of your heritage.

Hold on let me check. Yep I'm Irish.

Now let's get a few things straight.

1. The Irish language is not my heritage. All of my family while ethnically and culturally Irish have not spoken the language in centuries. I come from an English speaking family. English is my linguistical heritage.

2. I'm not ashamed of my heritage. I'm not proud of it either I'm neutral. Why would I feel emotive over someone else's actions before I was born.

FunLover18

on the river wrote: »

Really then why is your username mocking past cheiftans and areas. Why do you continue to have a alternative of abandonment of your native tongue. So ya your not a proud Gael afterall.

Akarinn wrote: »

Townies and dubs would want it optional.. But yet they all would be moaning about england stealing our counties rubbish. But yet not want to reserve any of the heritage that we have left. Quit complaining about it, i did irish in LC and so did the rest of the country and we got on fine.

All just comes down to people being lazy.

If both of your are so gung-ho about preserving Irish culture can you explain why you're not insisting that GAA, sean-nós singing, and our actual history aren't compulsory subjects?

What is so important about the LC that makes the previous 11 years of learning Irish redundant? What possible difference could those two years be making? Making it optional does not take away anybody's right or ability to study Irish at LC level. Gaeilgeors insist on their right to conduct business with the state the in Irish, surely the rest of the country has the right to choose not to study Irish at LC. It's a very small ask in comparison and yet we get slammed for being ashamed to be Irish, when your own definition of "being Irish" is rooted in the 1800s.

Jester252

Akarinn wrote: »

Your clearly not Irish and if you are your not proud of your heritage.

What is my heritage? If Irish is apart of my heritage because it was spoken as the first language by my potential ancestors over 100 years ago and thus I must learn it? Why is Latin not compulsory?

You fail to understand about heritage is that its not stationary. If it was Irish would not exist. Heritage is dynamic. It's constantly changing. My heritage is not the same as my grandparents or my parents. Your child's heritage will be different to your.

Akarinn

Optional

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It is all pointless down the line. That's the problem. That's why people are complaining. Why not spent the time doing something useful?

How did you learn to read and write? School im assuming..? How did you learn to count, to add and subtract?

You would like to think that your on this thread trying to gain support on how Irish shouldn't be compulsory, but all in all..

You and many others are just trying to get through school with as little effort as possible and come out complaining there isnt enough jobs. And worst of all YOU are the main reason your unemployed.. because your uneducated..

Iwasfrozen

Akarinn wrote: »

I was forced to learn another language to get into 3rd level. If we are going to question Irish as a subject, then why not maths? I have never used half of the crap that we had to learn in 2nd level, nor any history.. Business studies.. woodwork.. CSPE, SPHE.. So get a grip.

So really why should be try to educate ourselves at all if its all pointless down the line. You have to sit through these subjects for all of 5 years.. and its not even hard. Quit complaining.

You've never used leaving cert maths? What's your profession?

shruikan2553

Akarinn wrote: »

I was forced to learn another language to get into 3rd level.

They accept mutiple languages and even then not everywhere requires a language (engineering in the NUIs for example)

Akarinn wrote: »

If we are going to question Irish as a subject, then why not maths? I have never used half of the crap that we had to learn in 2nd level, nor any history.. Business studies.. woodwork.. CSPE, SPHE.. So get a grip.

We are talking about Irish as a leaving cert subject but I agree that many aspects of maths and english arent used by people after the leaving cert but these two subjects are of use to a lot more people than Irish is. History, business etc are all optional for the leaving cery and SPHE and CSPE end after the JC.

Akarinn wrote: »

So really why should be try to educate ourselves at all if its all pointless down the line. You have to sit through these subjects for all of 5 years.. and its not even hard. Quit complaining.

Its not all pointless, only some of it.

FunLover18

Akarinn wrote: »

How did you learn to read and write? School im assuming..? How did you learn to count, to add and subtract?

You would like to think that your on this thread trying to gain support on how Irish shouldn't be compulsory, but all in all..

You and many others are just trying to get through school with as little effort as possible and come out complaining there isnt enough jobs. And worst of all YOU are the main reason your unemployed.. because your uneducated..

I think you meant to say "you're uneducated"

Akarinn

Optional

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think you meant to say "you're uneducated"

A grammar nazi... Excellent

Jester252

Akarinn wrote: »

A grammar nazi... Excellent

Kinda funny you complaining about a grammar nazi when you what to force people to learn a language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Akarinn wrote: »

How did you learn to read and write? School im assuming..? How did you learn to count, to add and subtract?

You would like to think that your on this thread trying to gain support on how Irish shouldn't be compulsory, but all in all..

You and many others are just trying to get through school with as little effort as possible and come out complaining there isnt enough jobs. And worst of all YOU are the main reason your unemployed.. because your uneducated..

Can't believe you just made up arguments for me instead of bothering to look back through the thread and actually reading what my arguments were - I've made them enough times and it won't take long - and then called other people "lazy"!

Most people can read, write and do basic maths by 11 or 12. After that, the bulk of secondary school is pretty much pointless. Quadraitc equations, Shakespeare, Peig, the lot. My arugment - made repeatedly - is that all subjects should be optinal from the age of about 13 or 14.

SEPT 23 1989

my daughter is picking her subjects for secondary school and it annoys me to think she is going to waste 6 more years on this subject rather than picking something she might use in the future

Akarinn

Optional

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

my daughter is picking her subjects for secondary school and it annoys me to think she is going to waste 6 more years on this subject rather than picking something she might use in the future

Such as?