Time to ban rickshaws

cactusgal

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are there loads of older folks and children out on the pavements at rickshaw peak operating hours (11pm to 3am)?

How many people have been killed or seriously injured by rickshaw riders in the past 20 years or so?

That wasn't the question. I'll rephrase, to make it simpler.

Some rickshaw drivers drive recklessly on footpaths which are full of pedestrians. Do you think this behaviour is OK?

AndrewJRenko

cactusgal wrote: »

That wasn't the question. I'll rephrase, to make it simpler.

Some rickshaw drivers drive recklessly on footpaths which are full of pedestrians. Do you think this behaviour is OK?

Yes, I know that wasn't your question. I know that you want to zoom in on this very minor issue and ignore the really serious issues that result in people being killed or maimed on the road every week.

But I'm not going to play your game. This is a very minor issue. Why don't you tell me how serious an issue this is by comparison to the other serious problems on our roads that result in people being killed every week?

cactusgal

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, I know that wasn't your question. I know that you want to zoom in on this very minor issue and ignore the really serious issues that result in people being killed or maimed on the road every week.

But I'm not going to play your game. This is a very minor issue. Why don't you tell me how serious an issue this is by comparison to the other serious problems on our roads that result in people being killed every week?

Sigh. Yes, there are, of course, plenty of other serious issues. But this is a discussion about rickshaw drivers. I see you are not prepared to respond to my question, that's cool. You take care.

AndrewJRenko

cactusgal wrote: »

Sigh. Yes, there are, of course, plenty of other serious issues. But this is a discussion about rickshaw drivers. I see you are not prepared to respond to my question, that's cool. You take care.

So just to make sure I understand you correctly, are you of the opinion that this issue (which involves zero deaths and no substantiated reports of serious injuries over twenty years) is of a similar scale in seriousness to the problems on our road deaths that result in four or five deaths each week and as many people again maimed?

Hilly Bill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You haven't really. You've avoided giving a straight answer because it exposes the weakness of your argument.



I think that the attention of our regulators, our legislators and our enforcers should be focused on the real problems on the road - particularly the killing of four or five people each week by motorists. When we get that sorted we can come back and worry about rickshaws, jaywalkers, people who spit out their chewing gum and other very minor issues.

You are clutching at straws for an excuse to continue being a danger on the road with your rickshaw.

Hilly Bill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, I know that wasn't your question. I know that you want to zoom in on this very minor issue and ignore the really serious issues that result in people being killed or maimed on the road every week.

But I'm not going to play your game. This is a very minor issue. Why don't you tell me how serious an issue this is by comparison to the other serious problems on our roads that result in people being killed every week?

Minor issue? 😀 now that attitude is a good reason to ban the rickshaws in itself.

AndrewJRenko

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Minor issue? 😀 now that attitude is a good reason to ban the rickshaws in itself.

I prioritise issues by their impact. No-one has been killed by rickshaw in the 20-ish years they've been operating in Dublin. There hasn't been any substantiated report of serious injuries.

That's why it is a minor issue. If there is an issue in drug-dealing, then by all means, enforce that law fully. If there is an issue with Revenue fraud or social welfare fraud, then by all means, enforce those laws fully.

But let's not exaggerate risk beyond what the data clearly shows.

gizmo81

You cannot compare the numbers of rickshaws on the road 20 years ago to the recent flood of them by south americans.

We counted 42 on the quays one rush hour going to a drake concert. On a stretch from IFSC to 3 Arena, at rush hour.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I prioritise issues by their impact. No-one has been killed by rickshaw in the 20-ish years they've been operating in Dublin. There hasn't been any substantiated report of serious injuries.

That's why it is a minor issue. If there is an issue in drug-dealing, then by all means, enforce that law fully. If there is an issue with Revenue fraud or social welfare fraud, then by all means, enforce those laws fully.

But let's not exaggerate risk beyond what the data clearly shows.

AndrewJRenko

gizmo81 wrote: »

You cannot compare the numbers of rickshaws on the road 20 years ago to the recent flood of them by south americans.

We counted 42 on the quays one rush hour going to a drake concert. On a stretch from IFSC to 3 Arena, at rush hour.

And still, no-one died.

wordofwarning

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I prioritise issues by their impact. No-one has been killed by rickshaw in the 20-ish years they've been operating in Dublin. There hasn't been any substantiated report of serious injuries.

So you think regulators should regulate when someone flies out the back of a rickshaw and ends up in a coma? You don't regulate something with the potential to cause serious harm, after it has caused someone serious harm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's why it is a minor issue. If there is an issue in drug-dealing, then by all means, enforce that law fully. If there is an issue with Revenue fraud or social welfare fraud, then by all means, enforce those laws fully.

I find it bizarre that you have a double standard. You strongly believe that the Gardai should not waste time on going after rickshaw drivers for taxi offenses. Yet you have no issue with them going after them for petty drug dealing. Likewise you have no issue with Revenue going after them for potential tax evasion. They are a small fish compared to the massive tax evasion carried out by others in the economy. But you think potential tax evasion should strongly be enforced.

Why is drug dealing and tax evasion unacceptable, while getting up onto footpaths and injuring people (as long as it is not serious...) acceptable?

Instead of wasting Gardai time on enforcing drug charges and wasting Revenues time on checking their affairs. We could just ban them.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But let's not exaggerate risk beyond what the data clearly shows.

It is hard to find data on Google about rickshaw injuries, as the only searches coming up are about a rickshaw driver raping a women.

gizmo81

Foresight

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And still, no-one died.

jackofalltrades

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to make sure I understand you correctly, are you of the opinion that this issue (which involves zero deaths and no substantiated reports of serious injuries over twenty years) is of a similar scale in seriousness to the problems on our road deaths that result in four or five deaths each week and as many people again maimed?

Ah the "bikes don't kill people so leave us alone to break the rules" argument.
Yes their behaviour is minor when compared to people dying on the roads.
But that isn't an excuse to do nothing about it.
Just like how the Gards invest resources in solving crimes other than murder.
Pedestrians should be able to walk in peace through pedestrian areas without the risk of being knocked down.

Why are you so resistant to the idea of rickshaw drivers behaviour being dealt with?
And why can't you answer a simple question about whether you consider their behaviour OK?

AndrewJRenko

wordofwarning wrote: »

So you think regulators should regulate when someone flies out the back of a rickshaw and ends up in a coma? You don't regulate something with the potential to cause serious harm, after it has caused someone serious harm

So we should ban kitchen knives urgently too, I presume?

wordofwarning wrote: »

I find it bizarre that you have a double standard. You strongly believe that the Gardai should not waste time on going after rickshaw drivers for taxi offenses. Yet you have no issue with them going after them for petty drug dealing. Likewise you have no issue with Revenue going after them for potential tax evasion. They are a small fish compared to the massive tax evasion carried out by others in the economy. But you think potential tax evasion should strongly be enforced.

Why is drug dealing and tax evasion unacceptable, while getting up onto footpaths and injuring people (as long as it is not serious...) acceptable?

Instead of wasting Gardai time on enforcing drug charges and wasting Revenues time on checking their affairs. We could just ban them.

Ok, it seems slightly pedantic, but let me explain fully my position. If there is an issue in drug-dealing, then by all means, enforce that law fully within the context of overall Garda resources and priorities. If there is an issue with Revenue fraud or social welfare fraud, then by all means, enforce those laws fully within the context of overall Revenue/social welfare priorities and resources.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Instead of wasting Gardai time on enforcing drug charges and wasting Revenues time on checking their affairs. We could just ban them.

I know a plumber who was selling a few pills while claiming the dole. Should we ban plumbers?

wordofwarning wrote: »

It is hard to find data on Google about rickshaw injuries, as the only searches coming up are about a rickshaw driver raping a women.

I'd imagine that the reason why it is hard to find data about rickshaw injuries is because by and large, there are none. Yes, I remember the one about the rickshaw driver rapist, though not while on duty iirc. You'll also find reports about the taxi driver rapist and the aviation company owner rapist and the security man rapist.

hytrogen

AndrewJRenko wrote:

I know a plumber who was selling a few pills while claiming the dole. Should we ban plumbers?

We're those pills used to clean drains? If so he should be a millionaire

AndrewJRenko

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Why are you so resistant to the idea of rickshaw drivers behaviour being dealt with?

I've no problem with their behaviour being dealt with, within the context of overall Garda resources and priorities.

I have a problem with the 'I don't like them so ban them' nonsense.

gizmo81

And this is the crux of it

Why should the overstretched Gardai have to deal with it.

Why can people come in create a problem and then expect others to fix it?

The Rickshaw drivers aren't even contributing taxes to fund the Gardai who you want to 'deal' with it.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've no problem with their behaviour being dealt with, within the context of overall Garda resources and priorities.

I have a problem with the 'I don't like them so ban them' nonsense.

John_Rambo

Maybe we should have a lesser payed worrywart police service to deal with rickshaw contemplatives. Employ them to make cups of tea in civic centres and nod and shake their heads in sympathy with victims or rickshaw atrocities, massive injuries, loss of lives, post traumatic stress victims. They could set up hand wringing support groups, they could even slam their fists on the table every now and then to show fury and anger at the dreaded rickshaw endemic. We could propose a 4C bonus for them to start a march where they'd gather like minded anti rickshaw people to march on the city streets and say something like;

"whadowewant... no more rickshaws... when do we want them.. never"

And let the Gardai deal with crime.

AndrewJRenko

gizmo81 wrote: »

And this is the crux of it

Why should the overstretched Gardai have to deal with it.

Why can people come in create a problem and then expect others to fix it?

The Rickshaw drivers aren't even contributing taxes to fund the Gardai who you want to 'deal' with it.

So you want to ban them to avoid extra work for the Gardai? Who do you think is going to enforce the ban?

Hilly Bill

Garda traffic corps

Hilly Bill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I prioritise issues by their impact. No-one has been killed by rickshaw in the 20-ish years they've been operating in Dublin. There hasn't been any substantiated report of serious injuries.

That's why it is a minor issue. If there is an issue in drug-dealing, then by all means, enforce that law fully. If there is an issue with Revenue fraud or social welfare fraud, then by all means, enforce those laws fully.

But let's not exaggerate risk beyond what the data clearly shows.

Any idiot cutting through the flow of traffic in the wrong direction is not a minor issue.

AndrewJRenko

gizmo81 wrote: »

Why should the overstretched Gardai have to deal with it.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Garda traffic corps

You guys should really get together and come up with a workable proposal that doesn't contradict itself.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Any idiot cutting through the flow of traffic in the wrong direction is not a minor issue.

Relative to the killing of four people and maiming of as many more on the road this week, it is a minor issue. If you're going to ban people for cutting through the flow of traffic, you'd want to start by banning pedestrians.

Dr Crayfish

wordofwarning wrote: »

There is a demand for heroin in the city. So maybe we can all just leave them to it and carry on living with our lives? Your point makes no sense.

Well that's exactly what's happening. Heroin is openly dealt and used on the streets of Dublin, we've all seen it. The Garda do nothing. So we may as well legalise it, it's not going to go away.

Hilly Bill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You guys should really get together and come up with a workable proposal that doesn't contradict itself.


Relative to the killing of four people and maiming of as many more on the road this week, it is a minor issue. If you're going to ban people for cutting through the flow of traffic, you'd want to start by banning pedestrians.

Cutting through the flow of traffic is not the problem, it's when they do it across the path of incoming cars that's the problem. It's simple, they are a danger to themselves their passengers and other road users so should be taken off the road. If you can't see the danger in what you are doing then you shouldn't be on the road.

Hilly Bill

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well that's exactly what's happening. Heroin is openly dealt and used on the streets of Dublin, we've all seen it. The Garda do nothing. So we may as well legalise it, it's not going to go away.

Now i know you are just spoofing.

Dr Crayfish

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now i know you are just spoofing.

About what?

AndrewJRenko

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Cutting through the flow of traffic is not the problem, it's when they do it across the path of incoming cars that's the problem. It's simple, they are a danger to themselves their passengers and other road users so should be taken off the road. If you can't see the danger in what you are doing then you shouldn't be on the road.

Again, relative to what happens with other road users - pedestrians, cyclists and motorists - it is a minor issue. If you're to take every road users who cuts across a flow of incoming cars off the road, you'd want to have a very big banning stick.

And in the meantime, motorists kill four or five people each week, but you're not banning them. We have about 100k uninsured drivers on our road, but you're not banning them.

rubadub

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So we should ban kitchen knives urgently too, I presume?

Carrying a knife of a certain length in public can be decided to be illegal or not, whether it has a skull & crossbones on the handle or a kitchen knife with a picture of onions & tomatoes on the handle. RIckshaws would be legal to use on private land, just like samurai swords can be held at home.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you want to ban them to avoid extra work for the Gardai? Who do you think is going to enforce the ban?

The gardai enforce such laws as they see fit. Many will not be enforced for the most part as the gardai thankfully actually have some cop on, and are not idiotic pedantic little hitlers. They actually know what the law set out to prevent, so the little old lady on Moore street cutting up fish for the last 40 years with a 12 inch razor sharp knife in public is not done, the threatening scumbag with a 4 inch blunt blade IS. If no such laws were in place they could do nothing about said scumbag. Just because laws are not 100% enforced is a ridiculous reason to not bother having them or to repeal them.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you're going to ban people for cutting through the flow of traffic, you'd want to start by banning pedestrians.

A lot of dangerous crossing by pedestrians is illegal. Many are unaware that we do actually have "jaywalking" type laws here. Again not often enforced but if idiots are acting the maggot gardai can pull them up on it. Thankfully laws are in place so the scum cannot laugh in their face and get off.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We have about 100k uninsured drivers on our road, but you're not banning them.

again illegal. If it wasn't there would be an awful lot more doing it. It's bizarre how some people think a law will make little or no difference, unless enforced to the full. If a guy set up a taxi transport firm widely acknowledged to employee uninsured drivers it would attract gardai attention, any obviously organised illegal activity would.

Hilly Bill

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Again, relative to what happens with other road users - pedestrians, cyclists and motorists - it is a minor issue. If you're to take every road users who cuts across a flow of incoming cars off the road, you'd want to have a very big banning stick.

And in the meantime, motorists kill four or five people each week, but you're not banning them. We have about 100k uninsured drivers on our road, but you're not banning them.

How many insured rickshaw drivers are there?

AndrewJRenko

rubadub wrote: »

Carrying a knife of a certain length in public can be decided to be illegal or not, whether it has a skull & crossbones on the handle or a kitchen knife with a picture of onions & tomatoes on the handle. RIckshaws would be legal to use on private land, just like samurai swords can be held at home.


The gardai enforce such laws as they see fit. Many will not be enforced for the most part as the gardai thankfully actually have some cop on, and are not idiotic pedantic little hitlers. They actually know what the law set out to prevent, so the little old lady on Moore street cutting up fish for the last 40 years with a 12 inch razor sharp knife in public is not done, the threatening scumbag with a 4 inch blunt blade IS. If no such laws were in place they could do nothing about said scumbag. Just because laws are not 100% enforced is a ridiculous reason to not bother having them or to repeal them.


A lot of dangerous crossing by pedestrians is illegal. Many are unaware that we do actually have "jaywalking" type laws here. Again not often enforced but if idiots are acting the maggot gardai can pull them up on it. Thankfully laws are in place so the scum cannot laugh in their face and get off.


again illegal. If it wasn't there would be an awful lot more doing it. It's bizarre how some people think a law will make little or no difference, unless enforced to the full. If a guy set up a taxi transport firm widely acknowledged to employee uninsured drivers it would attract gardai attention, any obviously organised illegal activity would.

But how am I to get my kitchen knife home from the shop if I can't carry it?

I'm pleased to hear your confirmation that Gardai can use discretion to implement the law. Dangerous cycling is an offence, so Gardai can charge rickshaw drivers who cycle dangerously with that offence any time they like. There is no need for banning to address this issue.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How many insured rickshaw drivers are there?

A long way off 100k (the number of uninsured drivers on our road) to be sure.

gizmo81

Cyclists are private individuals.

Rickshaws are a commercial venture.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But how am I to get my kitchen knife home from the shop if I can't carry it?

I'm pleased to hear your confirmation that Gardai can use discretion to implement the law. Dangerous cycling is an offence, so Gardai can charge rickshaw drivers who cycle dangerously with that offence any time they like. There is no need for banning to address this issue.


A long way off 100k (the number of uninsured drivers on our road) to be sure.