Reseeding and poor land

Conmaicne Mara

One of those questions coming......

I will do more soil tests in the near future, from memory a farm wide (which won't be wholly accurate) soil test was PH 5.1 I believe.

I hope, if I can get the equipment and all goes to plan, to spread some ground lime on the land at at least one ton per acre, two would probably be better.

The plan is to attempt a small bit of reseeding, perhaps on two acres. Given my holding is small I want to attempt that on a poorer part of the farm so if it goes wrong, well it's better to cock up there than on the better part.

I would hope to do this most likely in the beginning of May or very late April right after the ewes have lambed and therefore skinned out that area of grass. Spray it off, use a two wheel tractor to rotovate, and spread seed by hand, then roll using a garden roller. Machinery mostly ain't an option, hope to use a 35 to spread the lime, yet to see if that will work.

Given the Low ph of 5.1, a figure that may yet be adjusted am I wasting my time attempting any reseed until I raise this figure?

If it's possible what's a good variety of seed to use for sheep grazing. Under the current system it gets fairly hard grazed in Spring. The land would be peat based I guess.

If Teagasc is open this week I might drop by the office and pick some brains.

There are a few lads locally interested in this so I'd want to get it right if I give it a go.

just do it

Is the high pH due to peat land? REPS allowed boggy land to have a higher pH before needing lime. I think by one unit but open to correction on that.

I see your point starting with the poorer land, but reseeds work best on good ground. Is it dry? Again will work better if roots can penetrate 1ft. This won't happen if the soil is saturated close to the surface and the old grasses/ rushes will take over again.

For all that you'll be grazing with sheep which is the best thing for establishment afterwards.

Conmaicne Mara

Low PH and I'd say so @ peat. I would like to improve it for my own ends, don't like how things are going at the moment letting fenced holdings go backwards. Better grass = better sheep.

It's shallow, so it's dry when the weather is dry and wet when it's wet. But, I am draining there at the moment so hope to channel water out of the area more effectively. Not worried about the dry, as drains or no drains when it dries out that's that.

In the majority of it there is less than 1ft depth before meeting bedrock or subsoil I suppose I'd call it. In places the bedrock breaks through the surface.

Just remembered I took a photo of part of it this evening for other purposes, for this thread, to scandalise some I'd even consider it

It looks worse in the photo than is, but not by a whole lot.

Added a cropped Bing aerial view, seeing as it's in fashion.

just do it

What's the local merchant like? Could be a good source of info as your location is somewhat unique.

Reilig reseeded his peat field after putting in the connaught agri pipes. He might have thoughts on the pH and seed mix.

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

What's the local merchant like? Could be a good source of info as your location is somewhat unique.

Reilig reseeded his peat field after putting in the connaught agri pipes. He might have thoughts on the pH and seed mix.

Merchant be of little use I'd say, feed @ fencing would be more their style, but I will ask. Due to the difficulty of the operation reseeding isn't something that's really done here, land too full of obstacles. I am stubborn.

Username John

Hi John,

I know I am a terrible man for not really replying to the original question posed - but I will do it again

Is the field fenced at the minute?

1.
I wonder if you tried to graze it well this year, and correct the Ph, P and K levels. And see how it goes. They should all be there next year, should you want to reseed then. Just something else to consider...

If you are set on reseeding...

2.
You say you want to reseed the poorer part. I can understand this in one way, but are you not giving yourself the best chance? Reseeding is not cheap. Lads often say its an investment, which it is I think. So should you invest in your best ground, and see how this goes. Your best ground should give the best return from the investment.

3.
For the ground you have shown in the photo, I am not sure I would rotavate. As the soil is peaty, would it be better to try to keep the surface as intact as possible? I know you will only have sheep on it, but even so, if the top was all churned up, and its very peaty, in wet weather could they still make ****e of it...
So would it be better to chain harrow it, maybe a quad with chain harrow would be a good piece of machinery for it (and i think you have access to one do you?)

So spray, wait for it to die off, lime, chain harrow, fertilser, seed, roll. If you timed the reseeding well, and you got rain straight after, you might get away without rolling.

That post was a bit longer than I intended, not sure I helped

Farmer Pudsey

If reseeding not sure if I would use ryegrass. Maybe traditional like cockfoot/Meadow fescue or even the lowland emeny, Yorkshirefog.

Yorkshire fog will virtually grow anywhere however you have to keep grazed down. If you google it you will see some work carried out in NZ on it. Maybe use ryegrass on better land that you want for silage.

If you think you cannot get pH right I would forget about ryegrasses also most find it hard to survive wet heavy ground.

Birdnuts

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yorkshire fog will virtually grow anywhere however you have to keep grazed down. If you google it you will see some work carried out in NZ on it..

It certainly will - got a couple of acres of degraded old blanket bog that has a good cover of YF that came in naturally. When the weather permits it gives as good grazing as anything else in that part of North Mayo.

Conmaicne Mara

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If reseeding not sure if I would use ryegrass. Maybe traditional like cockfoot/Meadow fescue or even the lowland emeny, Yorkshirefog.

Yorkshire fog will virtually grow anywhere however you have to keep grazed down. If you google it you will see some work carried out in NZ on it. Maybe use ryegrass on better land that you want for silage.

If you think you cannot get pH right I would forget about ryegrasses also most find it hard to survive wet heavy ground.

It'll all be grazed, no silage, no flat land for it. I am looking to grow something that'll push particularly my lambs more than what's there already, old pasture.

I'll get Googling YF.

On PH, well I haven't yet tried. If all comes to all the lime will be shovelled out the back of a transport box. I will have to handle the stuff once, so that'll either be shovelling it into a wagtail, or out of the box.

Conmaicne Mara

Not sure I'm keen on YF after reading a little about it.

My issue at the moment with not reseeding the "better" land is I'll need it in Spring for lambs. Rather than reduce my usable area of that type of land I was thinking of increasing it by improving the worse land.

The plan was to hopefully put ground lime out over Winter or when I can. Then not go deep at all with the rotovator, just enough to loosen up the top of the ground really to roll seeds into. I was thinking of putting out gran lime and 0-7-30 when I would be doing the seeding.

The reason for the two wheel tractor rotavator instead of a chain harrow is obstacles, as hopefully people can see from the photo above and the two of the "better" land included below. I think the rotavator will be easier for me to manage, as driving around is difficult in a lot of places never mind pulling a harrow after me.

Or maybe I am completely wrong............ !

just do it

Have you a seed mix in mind?

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

Have you a seed mix in mind?

I don't. Like I said, no experience in it and it's not done around here really so not much to go on. I certainly want white clover in it. I might be asking too much.

What I'd like to achieve is a rotational grazing system on my holding that will increase the milk production in the ewes and push the lambs to grow them and get them out of the place faster.

Can't really see my flock lambing much earlier than 17th March most years so would use that as a starting point in having lambs on the ground.

Will ring Teagasc in the morning, see if my advisor is knocking around on Thursday.

Poking around the Cotswolds seeds site ATM.

Bodacious

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

I don't. Like I said, no experience in it and it's not done around here really so not much to go on. I certainly want white clover in it. I might be asking too much.

What I'd like to achieve is a rotational grazing system on my holding that will increase the milk production in the ewes and push the lambs to grow them and get them out of the place faster.

Can't really see my flock lambing much earlier than 17th March most years so would use that as a starting point in having lambs on the ground.

Will ring Teagasc in the morning, see if my advisor is knocking around on Thursday.

Poking around the Cotswolds seeds site ATM.

Hi con

Have a look at more grass.ie also ... You want a mix for grazing only... Early or midseason and maybe even a mix for wet ground

2 things , gran lime is not much dearer and it's so much easier to handle and spread without machinery ... If you go for ground lime it's 22 tonne and it's a nightmare to look at yet alone spread when it's wet

Give yourself a fighting chance and pick an acre of better ground to do, it will not fail,grass will grow in the middle of the road if given the chance... For the input you will be delighted with reseed but even more so on a bit of better ground on the farm, it'll yield so much more palatable grass

If you do go with piece shown I wouldn't spray off the grass a foot around the exposed rock, those grasses have adapted to years of living on that 1-2inches of soil.. Don't die in dry weather... Another grass won't be as tough in that shallow soil

Best of luck with it

Masseymad

what part of the country are you in? id say just put out a bit of lime but not too heavy because you might end up wiht more rushes that grass!

poor farmer

Diploid grass seeds are more suited to tough conditions .
Spray ,leave for five days then graze as tight as possible.
As other posters have said, I would start by reseeding a easy worked patch ,you can try a trickier bit later.
In that sort of land a mounted chain (ie. one in a frame )would be ideal ,or what about a good big blackthorn/whitethorn bush.
.

reilig

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingsectors/crops/seedcertification/cropvarietyevaluationcvepublications/2012/GrassCloverRecommendedList2012.pdf

bogman_bass

yorkshire fog? Ah here lads he wants to improve his grassland not make it worse.!
Use ryegrass with high persitancy scores. Maybe some timothy or meadow fescue but you dont want Cocksfoot or Yorkshire fog anywhere near a mix.

deerehunter

Ryegrass a waste of time on ground like that.

you need someting with a good ground cover.

Ryegrass has a very bad ground cover as its pure stem so when its bare its like a feild of stubbles.

I dont know about sheep but i know cattle wont eat ryegrass if it goes strong

intesive grazing mix or someting maby?

bogman_bass

deerehunter wrote: »

intesive grazing mix or someting maby?

what do you think is in that?

actually an intensive mix is the last thing needed in that area.

deerehunter

bogman_bass wrote: »

what do you think is in that?

not fully ryegrass anyway as i have ryegrass on silage ground here and have the grazing mix higher up on the hill there surly is some ryegrass in it but only a smaal amount id imagine

bogman_bass

2kg Gelenvegh
3kg Picadilly
2kg Mezquita
3 kg Premium
1.5 kg Timothy
0.5kg white clover

A mix like that should serve you well

bogman_bass

deerehunter wrote: »

not fully ryegrass anyway as i have ryegrass on silage ground here and have the grazing mix higher up on the hill there surly is some ryegrass in it but only a smaal amount id imagine

any intensive grazing mix I've ever seen is all perenial ryegrass with the exception of clover

reilig

deerehunter wrote: »

not fully ryegrass anyway as i have ryegrass on silage ground here and have the grazing mix higher up on the hill there surly is some ryegrass in it but only a smaal amount id imagine

Late diploid ryegrass is what is recommended. A mix of Glenveagh, Soriento, Piccadilly and about 10% Timothy along with 5% white clover will grow well in peaty soil. It will have a good dense butt and be very suitable for what the OP needs it for - lamb grazing.

bogman_bass

As for yorkshire fog if anybody can find a supplier in Ireland that sells it I'll eat my hat.
There is a very good reason they dont sell it.

Why would the OP spend time and sffort and money to plant grasses that are no better that what he has already?

deerehunter

is that a mix that is widely used? as in it has a name and is bagged by the grass seed cowds or would you have to get it made up ?

bogman_bass

dont go overboard with thimoty. it has a very small seed so you will get a much higher seed count per kg of seed

bogman_bass

deerehunter wrote: »

is that a mix that is widely used? as in it has a name and is bagged by the grass seed cowds or would you have to get it made up ?

seeddirect.ie will do any mix you want.

If that isnt an option look for a Heavy land mix

deerehunter

doesnt that heavy land mix have a tendency to burn in dry weather as it thrives in wet soil? mabey im wrong?

reilig

deerehunter wrote: »

doesnt that heavy land mix have a tendency to burn in dry weather as it thrives in wet soil? mabey im wrong?

Op is putting it into peat soil in an upland area in the west of ireland. Heavy land mix wouldn't be recommended for the Golden vale where they get droughts but the OP doesn't have too many problems with dry weather grass stunting!

deerehunter

reilig wrote: »

Op is putting it into peat soil in an upland area in the west of ireland. Heavy land mix wouldn't be recommended for the Golden vale where they get droughts but the OP doesn't have too many problems with dry weather grass stunting!

yes i know that but when the rock is that close to the surface there im sure it wouldnt take much to dry it out

just do it

reilig wrote: »

Late diploid ryegrass is what is recommended. A mix of Glenveagh, Soriento, Piccadilly and about 10% Timothy along with 5% white clover will grow well in peaty soil. It will have a good dense butt and be very suitable for what the OP needs it for - lamb grazing.

Out of interest is that what you put in the plot you drained with the connaught agri pipes? I'm looking at draining and reseeding a 6ac plot like that next year, if the weather allows. How's the field coping with this heavy rain? i.e. still happy with it?

reilig

just do it wrote: »

Out of interest is that what you put in the plot you drained with the connaught agri pipes? I'm looking at draining and reseeding a 6ac plot like that next year, if the weather allows. How's the field coping with this heavy rain? i.e. still happy with it?

The above is what I used.

Field coping well with the rain - could cross it with the tractor last week. A lot of rain down over the weekend but it will dry out with 2 or 3 days without rain. Very happy with - planning the next drainage project.

bogman_bass

deerehunter wrote: »

doesnt that heavy land mix have a tendency to burn in dry weather as it thrives in wet soil? mabey im wrong?

not really. its not that it grows any better in the wet soil (bar the timothy which grows well in wet coditions) but all the grasses have good ground cover so stand up to poaching better and thats the reason they are put into such mixes

Panch18

Conmaicne Mara


Conmaicne Mara - would you not be better reseeding your better land first. You will get a better response from your new seeds and it will be better value for money?? Then you could think about doing the poorer land??

ABlur

Hi JDI, how did your chainharrow reseed turn out vs the powerharrow? Interested in the chain harrow for some poor ground I have. Thanks.

beef burger

we have some land similar to that bout an inch of peat then alot of thick marle or dawb wede call it as soon as it drizzles the soil goes get difficult anyway i was debating trying a little project with red clover only because it has good roots and fix nitrogen and strip graze it with 2 or 3 dairy bred calves mite be worth a shot as a trial for you aswell.

Conmaicne Mara

Thanks for all of the replies, I am keeping up with the thread, just sort of keeping out of the way seeing as I asked for advice, I am listening

Bodacious wrote: »

Hi con

Have a look at more grass.ie also ... You want a mix for grazing only... Early or midseason and maybe even a mix for wet ground

2 things , gran lime is not much dearer and it's so much easier to handle and spread without machinery ... If you go for ground lime it's 22 tonne and it's a nightmare to look at yet alone spread when it's wet

Give yourself a fighting chance and pick an acre of better ground to do, it will not fail,grass will grow in the middle of the road if given the chance... For the input you will be delighted with reseed but even more so on a bit of better ground on the farm, it'll yield so much more palatable grass

If you do go with piece shown I wouldn't spray off the grass a foot around the exposed rock, those grasses have adapted to years of living on that 1-2inches of soil.. Don't die in dry weather... Another grass won't be as tough in that shallow soil

Best of luck with it

On gran lime I can only get it in 50kg bags, which were I think €9.50 a bag last year. It's certainly easier for me to handle, but the figures don't add up. If I can find a decent vicon to spread it I'll be saving and spreading at the one time.

Interesting thinking on the rock border, I will take that on board.

Now, seasons, I am a bit at sea when it comes to grass variety and "seasons"?

Masseymad wrote: »

what part of the country are you in? id say just put out a bit of lime but not too heavy because you might end up wiht more rushes that grass!

The extreme West of your own county Heard that about rushes, we had a chat about it at our first STAP meeting this year but I've forgotten since I'll probably end up putting out one ton/acre this year, two would be tops and certainly no more than that.

reilig wrote: »

Late diploid ryegrass is what is recommended. A mix of Glenveagh, Soriento, Piccadilly and about 10% Timothy along with 5% white clover will grow well in peaty soil. It will have a good dense butt and be very suitable for what the OP needs it for - lamb grazing.

As well as the lambs when they're eating in their own right, it'd be nice to have that bit more grass for the ewes at lambing, also in Autumn. I could be asking too much again as my knowledge is limited.

deerehunter wrote: »

yes i know that but when the rock is that close to the surface there im sure it wouldnt take much to dry it out

Place stood up pretty well during our July heatwave. Some areas of soil will curl up around bedrock and extremely shallow areas but in all honesty it's not a huge problem.

just do it

ABlur wrote: »

Hi JDI, how did your chainharrow reseed turn out vs the powerharrow? Interested in the chain harrow for some poor ground I have. Thanks.

Worked out well. I'd plenty posts on the photo thread during Sept/Oct. I was able to graze out the chain harrowed section when it got wet in October whereas I was unable to graze the disc & power harrowed section as underfoot conditions were too soft.

I'd definitely have no hesitation going with the chain harrow only in future. Interestingly on the headlands which remained quite hairy the reseed took quite well as well without any care. Just shows grass will grow anywhere.

just do it

Conmaicne
Are you planning on any cultivation/ levelling? Just if it's destined for grazing only I'd recommend against it given the soil type and terrain. A discussion group member this year who's done a lot of reseeding over the last few years reckoned he got just as good a response to one bit of ground that only had seed broadcast - no harrow, no roller.

reilig

just do it wrote: »

Just shows grass will grow anywhere.

I have been saying that here for the last couple of years and it's amazing the number of people who contradicted me saying that I wasted seed and that i should have been ploughing or power harrowing or stitching etc.

Reseeding is as simple as ensuring that the seed comes in contact with the soil, having the right nutrients, and having enough fertilizer. People can complicate it as much as they like after that with machines, but at the end of the day this is what any machine does to achieve a successful reseed.

monseiur

My advice would be :

Stage 1 Graze tight, sheep are best, fence them in say 2 acres at a time.

Stage 2 : Spread 2 to 3 tons ground limestone per acre immediately after grazing.

Stage 3 : Next March/April track all over with a 4 to 6 ton track machine, the lime will have softened the top layer of soil and the track machine will break up this layer making it a little mucky and also uproot existing grass, scrub etc. giving new grass a head start to get established.

Stage 4 : Allow to dry out a little, then broadcast seed, rake over lightly - a bush behind a quad should do !

Stage 5 : When grass is established spread 7:6:17 or similar, very lightly at first, just enough to give it a boost. When grass is well established spread 10:10:20 ad lib. Job done.

reilig

Has anyone ever spread ground limestone on bog?

Made the mistake of putting over 2 ton to the acre on it once and it wasn't a pretty site a few months after. Best to spread lime in small amounts carefully every year on peat soil than putting on a couple of ton in the one go or else you will have very soft ground.

just do it

reilig wrote: »

Has anyone ever spread ground limestone on bog?

Made the mistake of putting over 2 ton to the acre on it once and it wasn't a pretty site a few months after. Best to spread lime in small amounts carefully every year on peat soil than putting on a couple of ton in the one go or else you will have very soft ground.

Interesting. I was considering 0.5-1ton annually for a few years for that exact reason. Also no heavy stock for first 12m post reseed until a scraw has formed. Starting with a good field has been an education. Still very vulnerable when wet.

Conmaicne Mara

just do it wrote: »

Conmaicne
Are you planning on any cultivation/ levelling? Just if it's destined for grazing only I'd recommend against it given the soil type and terrain. A discussion group member this year who's done a lot of reseeding over the last few years reckoned he got just as good a response to one bit of ground that only had seed broadcast - no harrow, no roller.

You could describe the plan as being effective as cheaply as possible, I am on the shoestring budget. While I do not want the effort to fail I don't want to spend where I don't absolutely need to.

I had intended on rotovating, I think I am convinced to harrow instead now. How to work the harrow is another question. To risk getting one for the tractor and not being able to drive around enough with it (lots of: open drains, rocks, stone walls, hilly). Or, get an atv version and rent/borrow (less likely at the moment) one but would it have the weight or power for that job, it would be maneuverable enough.

I would like to roll it, which will be a hand roller. Anything I've read has stressed seed/soil contact.

just do it

I reckon graze tight, grow, spray, graze tight, 2 bags granular lime, 1 bag 10-10-20, seed and roll would do it. To be honest I don't think the chain harrow made an ounce of difference to my reseed as it hardly scratched the surface due to how dry it was. Then another bag of 10-10-20 2 weeks later.

just do it

Another thought has struck me. As you'll be doing it all yourself you could run a trial on a 20m x 20m plot (0.1ac) early in the spring one ground temperatures allow. You'll know if it's a success within 2/3 weeks.

Farmer Pudsey

If it is peaty or black soil ground it will till easy. I be inclined to spray with roundup and graze tight. If you have it fenced in keep them in it until they graze it bare. Then Chain harrow as if it is peaty it will pull the grass out of it. I would not be rushing into it in the spring it may well pay to do it in really dry weather in May, June or even July.

The trick to reseeding wet or peaty ground is that ground temperatures are up above 10C ideally 5-6 above this. I with relig little and often with lime I would be using Granlime type product. with high ground temp and dry ground you will be able to till it with a chain harrow, Drag will be better than frame I think.

Spread your seed and if you have access to slurry 2k/acre on top of seed if rain expected or ground is moist. High ground temperature is the main thing so that when seed hit the ground it takes off.

Conmaicne Mara

No slurry I am afraid, again it's due to the type of terrain. It's just not tractor friendly, therefore the farming practices common on more trafficable farmland don't exist here. Only two lads in this village attempt to make their own hay, no silage, but they'd be better off trying to make that than the hay.

The plan is coming together now

I am still against the granlime, I've worked out the price and it comes in 5-6 times more expensive than ground. I know the handling of ground will be a major problem for me but money is simply a bigger issue lol.

I'm liking the test patch idea.

manjou

just do it wrote: »

I reckon graze tight, grow, spray, graze tight, 2 bags granular lime, 1 bag 10-10-20, seed and roll would do it. To be honest I don't think the chain harrow made an ounce of difference to my reseed as it hardly scratched the surface due to how dry it was. Then another bag of 10-10-20 2 weeks later.

Why not try this without the reseed you would be increasing the p&k in the soil and ph and you might be suprised how much grass you will grow.Washed spreader one day that had bag left in it and stripe could be seen for years down field.

just do it

Slurry. I ran out of it last summer so only 70% of the ground got it. Grass grew just as well throughout. But pre-reseed soil test showed it was at least index 3, if not 4, for both P & K.

just do it

Lime. Some points.
Is that note limestone land you have? Also lime at time of reseed is important for neutralising the acid generated by decaying vegetation. If you've it grazed very tight by sheep this will minimise decaying vegetation and you may well get away with 2 bags/ac of ground lime broadcast at same time as seed.