Dropping baffles on Firebird popular.

Billy Bunting

The sooty baffle topic got me thinking about this and so i thought i would throw it out for opinions.....


I think we've all seen the FB Popular that's dropped 1 or 2 baffle plates, you normally find that the plate doesn't seem to fit snugly into the retaining channel and slump sidways, now i normally carry a few strips of steel that i slot in to make them snug again, how do you guys sort the problem ??

Wearb

Billy Bunting wrote: »

The sooty baffle topic got me thinking about this and so i thought i would throw it out for opinions.....


I think we've all seen the FB Popular that's dropped 1 or 2 baffle plates, you normally find that the plate doesn't seem to fit snugly into the retaining channel and slump sidways, now i normally carry a few strips of steel that i slot in to make them snug again, how do you guys sort the problem ??

I just scrape out the channels and put them back as best I can. So far so good. Perhaps someone has a better idea.

scudo2

Wedges against them to keep them in place. Or new design of baffle I've developed that don't fall but have improves efficiency by 35%

I've only converted 320 boilers with my design. Money back gaurantee




Fully insured + product liability + product liability, insurance in case anybody needs to ask.!!

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

Wedges against them to keep them in place. Or new design of baffle I've developed that don't fall but have improves efficiency by 35%

I've only converted 320 boilers with my design. Money back gaurantee




Fully insured + product liability + product liability, insurance in case anybody needs to ask.!!

:eek: What kind of efficiency had they before these new baffles?

Billy Bunting

It amazes me that when ever they do fall they end up completly blocking air flow to one side and so you can just imagine what that does to eff.

Have come across one that had 3/4 tube partially obstructing each baffle, this must have been someones modification, simple and no doubt effective to some degree.

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

:eek: What kind of efficiency had they before these new baffles?

280degrees temp wasted out the flue. On old 3 plates either side firebird design.
My design is similar to GRANT's on there 120 but different due to patent law.
Temp reduced to 120 degrees on flue output aprox.

I'll reply to nice polite replys. Pz

Billy Bunting

Any pics Scudo

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

280degrees temp wasted out the flue. On old 3 plates either side firebird design.
My design is similar to GRANT's on there 120 but different due to patent law.
Temp reduced to 120 degrees on flue output aprox.

I'll reply to nice polite replys. Pz

You'll have it condensing yet Scudo. Though if you achieve that with recommended combustion settings and nozzles, then I am impressed. You sure you are not taking readings just after start-up....only joking

scudo2

I'm not trying to start debate/ effin row.

Don't get me wrong. Pz I know most replys wish well.
Ill try to post design in a few days. Phone photos won't transfer properly.
Hope I can sort it.
Cheers
Scudo

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

I'm not trying to start debate/ effin row.

Don't get me wrong. Pz I know most replys wish well.
Ill try to post design in a few days. Phone photos won't transfer properly.
Hope I can sort it.
Cheers
Scudo

Sorry Scudo. I was being a bit sarcastic.

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Sorry Scudo. I was being a bit sarcastic.

Jesus. Hope ye all have figured by now. I've no problem with sarcasm or questions. Have no problem there mate.just don't call me a ......... you know.
Cheers

My family business at home since 1930s aprox is/was metal fabrication. Me the last born got a different trade. Not much choice ! Last in first out and all that.
But I'm welding and designing since 14.

My design of baffle do work as my customers lucky agreed. I gave a money back guarantee + service cost.
I'll try to post photos.
Very similar to multy pass, but different.due to GRANT'S patent on their baffles.

Ta.
Scudo

Dtp1979

scudo2 wrote: »

Jesus. Hope ye all have figured by now. I've no problem with sarcasm or questions. Have no problem there mate.just don't call me a ......... you know.
Cheers

My family business at home since 1930s aprox is/was metal fabrication. Me the last born got a different trade. Not much choice ! Last in first out and all that.
But I'm welding and designing since 14.

My design of baffle do work as my customers lucky agreed. I gave a money back guarantee + service cost.
I'll try to post photos.
Very similar to multy pass, but different.
Ta.
Scudo

So what do u do scudo, change the baffles in all boilers that aren't up to spec?

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

280degrees temp wasted out the flue. On old 3 plates either side firebird design.
My design is similar to GRANT's on there 120 but different due to patent law.
Temp reduced to 120 degrees on flue output aprox.

I'll reply to nice polite replys. Pz

isn't 120dg running very close to the min temp a se boiler should be run at or am I wrong again as usual

corkgsxr

I hammer a metal strip down each to clear the channels out

scudo2

Dtp1979 wrote: »

So what do u do scudo, change the baffles in all boilers that aren't up to spec?

Na, just gave the customers the option, little call for them now as old pre 2002 Firebird boilers are getting old and I've done most of my regular customers + family business gone bang.

Pity after 103 years family business name in a small village.

No sympathy Pz as I was fecked out years ago.
Luckly.!!

Youngest and all that. !!


Which I thank my lucky stars for.

Billy Bunting

corkgsxr wrote: »

I hammer a metal strip down each to clear the channels out

The problem seems to be that the channels are too wide to firmly hold the thickness of the plates and there is little room to go at them with a lump hammer to tighten them up, i have done the same as you corkgsxr but that only seems to get them in, but you couldnt trust them, thus the metal strip laying along side them.

I'm pleased to see its not just me who has to play with these.

scudo2

corkgsxr wrote: »

I hammer a metal strip down each to clear the channels out

+ hammer in the corner of retaining bracket. Also wedge something metalic at the open side of baffle. ie old nozzle.

corkgsxr

I find there usually bent so you have to tap them down.

DGOBS

Would appear our backgrounds are none too dissimilar, am very comfortable around cad/cam, punches, brakes, lasers, water jets etc, all sort of metal fab. (not a family business, although Pops was a toolmaker)

Would be interested to see the design, and maybe even test a set (paid for of course) if you still have some laying around and I line up a guinea pig boiler.

What I can't understand (yet) is even the grant baffle set still only achieves a FGT of approx 200-210 degrees, not dissimilar to the popular (210-220 if plumbed on opposite corners as opposed to same side flow & return) if it was 250 deg surely it was over firing?

RE dropping baffles, pretty much a mix of all the above, thin strips, bashing out the sulphur build-up (or use a condom sounding product!)
but those hangers were always a pain in the behind TBH, have seen a few in my area weld a small upright off the bottom and middle ones in the past as support structures

DGOBS

Come to think of it, had one a long time back where the electricity 'browned out' on a customer for about 1 min, straight after there was a huge bang outside and her heating stopped.

The burner motor had continue to run on low volts, but not enough oil pressure for atomisation, fuel poured into the hot chamber, for some reason no lockout either! Power came back and boiler went though ignition sequence, sparked with upper section full of vapour….bang

No need to straighten those baffles, they were all bend appox 45degs and chamber door torn clean off….

jimf

DGOBS wrote: »

Come to think of it, had one a long time back where the electricity 'browned out' on a customer for about 1 min, straight after there was a huge bang outside and her heating stopped.

The burner motor had continue to run on low volts, but not enough oil pressure for atomisation, fuel poured into the hot chamber, for some reason no lockout either! Power came back and boiler went though ignition sequence, sparked with upper section full of vapour….bang

No need to straighten those baffles, they were all bend appox 45degs and chamber door torn clean off….

you would imagine it would have went to lock out I wonder would the low run voltage to the coil not have helped the cause whats your own theory

DGOBS

Yeah, not sure why no lockout, but the coil in the riello only needs 3v in run mode 27v on startup so low voltage shouldn't be an issue.

Spoke at length with Grant about it when it happened and they had seen it before.

I believe the RDB has low voltage protection built into the control board (wonder why!)

jimf

DGOBS wrote: »

Yeah, not sure why no lockout, but the coil in the riello only needs 3v in run mode 27v on startup so low voltage shouldn't be an issue.

Spoke at length with Grant about it when it happened and they had seen it before.

I believe the RDB has low voltage protection built into the control board (wonder why!)

I was kind of thinking if the coil needed higher run voltage with the power drop the valve would open and divert oil away from the nozzle port ???

so no oil in chamber

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

Yeah, not sure why no lockout, but the coil in the riello only needs 3v in run mode 27v on startup so low voltage shouldn't be an issue.

Spoke at length with Grant about it when it happened and they had seen it before.

I believe the RDB has low voltage protection built into the control board (wonder why!)

Perhaps it was a sort of intermittent firing -during the low power supply- that allowed for build up of gasses. Something like trying the reset too often.

DGOBS

Nah, they run on low voltage on riello unlike the danfoss & sunvic coils

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Perhaps it was a sort of intermittent firing -during the low power supply- that allowed for build up of gasses. Something like trying the reset too often.

theres a reason why a big feckin only reset twice is stuck over that button

Billy Bunting

Someone appears to of gone Off topic again

jimf

sorry mister bunting please don't tell the big bold mods I cant afford a holiday

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

sorry mister bunting please don't tell the big bold mods I cant afford a holiday

Sorry but Gaz will spot it. :cool:

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Someone appears to of gone Off topic again

kinda thinkin your after a bit of promotion yourself :eek:

Billy Bunting

Don't need it, I'm Gary's No1 and DGOBS phoned me and said i was his favourite.

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Don't need it, I'm Gary's No1 and DGOBS phoned me and said i was his favourite.

arse licker:o:o:o

DGOBS

Sorry my fault, Billy is far to wise for that!

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

arse licker:o:o:o

yep!!!! :P

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

yep!!!! :P

ok you win I give up

Billy Bunting

DGOBS wrote: »

Sorry my fault,

Gary has a three strikes and your out policy, be warned he could be poppin his cherry on you

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

theres a reason why a big feckin only reset twice is stuck over that button

There sure is. It is to make sure that we can make a few handy Euro every now and then

Joking aside; After such a serious incident, I would have expected Grant or HSA to run a controlled test under low voltage to see if this fault could be replicated.

scudo2

baffle scan with arrows.jpg

scudo2 wrote: »

I'm not trying to start debate/ effin row.

Don't get me wrong. Pz I know most replys wish well.
Ill try to post design in a few days. Phone photos won't transfer properly.
Hope I can sort it.
Cheers
Scudo

baffles scan.jpg

Hope this worked.

My tempatures + efficiency are not to any accurate European guide lines, so after a while flue temp would be higher,
efficiency is due to costomers seeing 25-40% savings in running costs on average compaired to old Firebird baffles, this is only results of my own survey !!!
Not by HARP, SEDBUK, or the GERMAN's
OK?

Wearb

scudo2 wrote: »

baffle scan with arrows.jpg

baffles scan.jpg

Hope this worked.

My tempatures + efficiency are not to any accurate European guide lines, so after a while flue temp would be higher,
efficiency is due to costomers seeing 25-40% savings in running costs on average compaired to old Firebird baffles, this is only results of my own survey !!!
Not by HARP, SEDBUK, or the GERMAN's
OK?

Very impressive Scudo. I wouldn't know even know where to start in designing such baffles. Did you just chose the size of the "arrowed" passageways from experience. Did you have a few attempts to get it right? Are you getting those temps with the recommended nozzle sizes? Sorry for all the questions. It would be great to see proper tests done and maybe end up with a cheap upgrade to these boilers.

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

baffle scan with arrows.jpg

baffles scan.jpg

Hope this worked.

My tempatures + efficiency are not to any accurate European guide lines, so after a while flue temp would be higher,
efficiency is due to costomers seeing 25-40% savings in running costs on average compaired to old Firebird baffles, this is only results of my own survey !!!
Not by HARP, SEDBUK, or the GERMAN's
OK?

You know what, if you put that much effort into it, whether it works or not, fair play.
You can certainly have a thanks from me on this one.
Well done Scudo. :-)

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

You know what, if you put that much effort into it, whether it works or not, fair play.
You can certainly have a thanks from me on this one.
Well done Scudo. :-)

Thanks for the thanks,
Let's put the past into the past.

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Very impressive Scudo. I wouldn't know even know where to start in designing such baffles. Did you just chose the size of the "arrowed" passageways from experience. Did you have a few attempts to get it right? Are you getting those temps with the recommended nozzle sizes? Sorry for all the questions. It would be great to see proper tests done and maybe end up with a cheap upgrade to these boilers.

A few mesurements + attempts.
Horse shoe shape is welded to plate, legs are spacers, horseshoe keeps heat aganst boiler wall for better heat transfer. no heat wasted in the middle. Each horseshoe has a flat plate welded on to it's top, bottom baffle has two plates welded onto it ( top & bottom) making a box shape baffle, this fits into Firebirds bottom bracket providing solid platform for the rest of the baffles to sit on. My mesurements on size ment that existing baffel retainers on boiler did not obstruct my new design. A flat plate ( Baffel plate) is also fitted between baffels and boiler door to act as a heat shield.

Design can also be used on older warmflow and gerkros boilers that have a water panel in the middle, or bigger plates for the 120 Firebird.

I only concertrated on 50-90 Popular as there was so many of them down here. I had to get enough for 50 boilers made at a time to be viable.

I converted well over 320 boilers with this design and not one complaint.


DGOBS has asked to see a set and he'll proberly give his view.

Proberly ban me and patent the idea !:)

jimf

scudo2 wrote: »

baffle scan with arrows.jpg

baffles scan.jpg

Hope this worked.

My tempatures + efficiency are not to any accurate European guide lines, so after a while flue temp would be higher,
efficiency is due to costomers seeing 25-40% savings in running costs on average compaired to old Firebird baffles, this is only results of my own survey !!!
Not by HARP, SEDBUK, or the GERMAN's

first class bit of engineering there scudo do you actually sell them

DGOBS

Wow, must be Christmas spirit. Great to see a thread where we are all getting on

There would be a running cost saving, but if it reduced the FGT to let's say 120deg the savings would be let's say 10%, anything else would be purely down to good sizing and set up, and your proper servicing.

How long would the FGT stay low? And rise to what?

None of this is an attack, just curious about the detail, it's great to see any ingenuity from techs, as it's usually at the coal face where someone sees the really good ideas IMHO

And the tune goes:

DING DONG MERRILY ON HIGH THE CONTRARY TWO ARN'T BITCHING

My work here is done, carry on Billy.

scudo2

DGOBS wrote: »

Wow, must be Christmas spirit. Great to see a thread where we are all getting on

There would be a running cost saving, but if it reduced the FGT to let's say 120deg the savings would be let's say 10%, anything else would be purely down to good sizing and set up, and your proper servicing.

How long would the FGT stay low? And rise to what?

None of this is an attack, just curious about the detail, it's great to see any ingenuity from techs, as it's usually at the coal face where someone sees the really good ideas IMHO

Most if not all the boilers had been regularly serviced by me so any difference in oil consumption is due to baffles as customers already had the best service money can buy !!!

Heat travels 4' in old design.
Heat travels 18' with my design,
Both sides of baffles X two sets.



Baffles in the post tomorrow to DGOBS

Help yourselves to design.

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

And the tune goes:

DING DONG MERRILY ON HIGH THE CONTRARY TWO ARN'T BITCHING

My work here is done, carry on Billy.

We are defined by how well we rise after falling....

Just as long as I am not chased by anyone waving mistletoe! My lips are fairly tired at this time of year.

DGOBS

Gary put that mistletoe away.......

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

We are defined by how well we rise after falling....

Just as long as I am not chased by anyone waving mistletoe! My lips are fairly tired at this time of year.

Hug ?

scudo2

Wearb wrote: »

Very impressive Scudo. I wouldn't know even know where to start in designing such baffles. Did you just chose the size of the "arrowed" passageways from experience. Did you have a few attempts to get it right? Are you getting those temps with the recommended nozzle sizes? Sorry for all the questions. It would be great to see proper tests done and maybe end up with a cheap upgrade to these boilers.

CHEAP UPGRADE.!!
It paid for Scudo 2

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

Hug ?

Always remember sometimes not getting what you want can sometimes be the best thing for you... :eek: