optimum nutrition for sport seminar tonight

ROK ON

What interests me is the debate around these issues and how defensive people become - and yeas I mean that.

I actually like the LCHF approach. Have tried it, and now quasi do it (by that I mean three four days per week).


I have cut processed sugar out of my coffee completely - that is 9 spoons of sugar a day.

I have gone from three bars of chocolate per day to about three per week. I have spent years trying to achieve this but I have been doing it four five months without craving. For me that is success.

My issue is with evangalism of a way of life that cannot to my mnd be proven.

I know a fair few vegetarians, and I find the approach from that corner to be equally in humility.

If someone (an athlete for example) moves from a crap orthodox food pyramid diet to an exclusionary diet (either protein based or veg/carb based) and they see improvemnts is it down to this. I dont know.

I see huge crossovers with macro-economics. There is a lot of evidence that stuff works in dealing with issues. But there exists as much evidence that stuff does not work and is actually harmful. All of the people pushing these theories provide evidence, the research is undertaken by people with huge credibility, models are presented in peeer reviewed journals.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Pete - I fully accept yur point that asking for hard scientific evidence maybe impossible. But that should stop society from trying.

We really know very very little how our bodies work and react to nutrition and exercise. But I would be supportive of more experimentation - I guess that is the only way knowledge will advance.

My issue is that in my professional life I see guys building careers around advice. I wont pay for it unless there is some credible reason as to why I should - I havent found that yet - in economics, finance or nutrition.

niceonetom

You can't demand everyone do their best to convince you and then accuse them of being evangelical when they do, that's just obtuse.

petethedrummer

doozerie wrote: »

Re fasted rides,

It occurred to me the other day that in my early twenties I had practiced fasted (or semi-fasted) training. I could not eat after 2 pm to go training at 7 or 7:30 for Gaelic football.

They used to (over) train us to the verge of puking several nights a week and rather than try to hold food down, I was better off not eating for hours beforehand.

ROK ON

niceonetom wrote: »

You can't demand everyone do their best to convince you and then accuse them of being evangelical when they do, that's just obtuse.

I can demand it - I am obtuse.
Yoou are expecting me to be reasonable.

I support the lifestyle choice (and training methodolgies) that are being forwarded - but only because they suit me.

The issue that I have is that the arguments put forward are similar to the arguments put forward by high carb guys, the long distance do as much taraining as you can guys, Ben Brenanke, Paul Krugman, folks that believe in Jesus, folks that disbelieve in Jesus.

Once again - I think people are taking my critique (if it is even that too literally). I am simply pointing out similarities with other stuff.

Let me reiterate - the experimentation is worthy and noble. I believe this without question. Why - because one of the strongest covictions that I have is that people should eat natural food and eliminate process fodd in as much as is possible. I am a shareholder of Tesco (worse luck) but there is now way I would eat anything that sits on their shelves.

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

What interests me is the debate around these issues and how defensive people become - and yeas I mean that.

Well you did refer to my eating habits as extreme. They are entirely rational.

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well you did refer to my eating habits as extreme. They are entirely rational.

I do not believe in rationality as a concept. There is no evidence of rationality anaywhere. Once quaise science accepts that we will make huge leaps in terms of understanding complex issues.

niceonetom

ROK ON wrote: »

I do not believe in rationality as a concept.

I'm out.

Good luck Pete.

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

Pete - I fully accept yur point that asking for hard scientific evidence maybe impossible. But that should stop society from trying.

There are sections of society trying and always have been! But it has taken Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and the Internet to draw together a whole lot of disparate groups who were starting to disbelieve the accepted nutritional model. Lipidologists, personal trainers, GPs, Athletes, dieticians, sport scientists & joe soaps who were seeing negative health outcomes following the current food pyramid.

So it will take time.

thebouldwhacker

ROK ON wrote: »

obtuse

It's not often you get to use that word. I love it, it's such a great word I think. It forms the backbone of a powerful scene in the Shawshank Redemption.
Great movie, great scene, great word.

Sorry, just sharing, carry on...

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

The issue that I have is that the arguments put forward are similar to the arguments put forward by high carb guys, the long distance do as much taraining as you can guys, Ben Brenanke, Paul Krugman, folks that believe in Jesus, folks that disbelieve in Jesus.

I really don't know what you want? I have a position on things nutritional that I take time to explain. I accept I may be wholly or partially wrong, but I will put forward why I believe my position is correct. I will also put forward shifts in my thinking. Just like anyone else does with their beliefs on whatever topic.

What should I do when challenged? sing a song? build a shed?

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

There are sections of society trying and always have been! But it has taken Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and the Internet to draw together a whole lot of disparate groups who were starting to disbelieve the accepted nutritional model. Lipidologists, personal trainers, GPs, Athletes, dieticians, sport scientists & joe soaps who were seeing negative health outcomes following the current food pyramid.

So it will take time.

This is all important, Very important.

I want to be able to show my wife that the food pyramid is insane.
I want to be able to demonstrate to vegetarians that they are delusional beyond belief )by vegetarians I actually mean people that do not eat meat based protein but would seem to be addicted to carbs - most of the vegies that I know are like this).

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

What should I do when challenged? sing a song? build a shed?

Accept that the challenge will make yoou more determined. Coounter it like yoou have beeen. Devils advocacy is important in life. Challenge is at the core of beuilding a belief system that works for you.

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

I want to be able to show my wife that the food pyramid is insane.
I want to be able to demonstrate to vegetarians that they are delusional beyond belief )by vegetarians I actually mean people that do not eat meat based protein but would seem to be addicted to carbs - most of the vegies that I know are like this).

Unfortunately you are not going to be able to in the current climate.

thebouldwhacker

I'm no fan of the Palio diet, or the Atkins diet or any diet that can sum up the entire spectrum of food you eat in one word however that goes for the food pyramid and the likes too.
However I do believe that success and failure can be discussed (not proven) by anacdotial evidence. Thus allowing the recipient of this information to give it a go for themselves.
I put great weight in protein over carb (it is digested slower and keeps you full for longer etc etc) however the idea of cutting out carbs altogether is more philosophical than medical IMHO. That said if people here reckon it's done wonders for them then so be it.
I have a friend who (truly) believes in angels, this belief has allowed this person do things I know they would not have considered without this belief so for me the means are justified. Will they throw themselves off a roof thinking that they will be protected, no, (why, I don't know. Personally if I knew deep in my heart that I had a winged protector from the spirit world following me about being my enforcer I would certainly employ their abilities to their maximum potential but that's another rant) and so people should treat their diet in the same way, sanely.
What I believe to be true for my body is a balance of food from various sources, I do not eat processed food as this does not add any value to the food. The exception being cerial bars on spins and the like.
I think cutting out a food type based on a philosophy that our body which is a billion plus years in development can not function on a balanced diet ( or on one based on food group exclusion) is questionable and for me has more in common in belief than in fact.
That said if I were a world standard athlete and my success or failure was measured in seconds, and I had a medical team backing me up I too would dabble in the dark arts.
But I don't.
I am Fred Soap who wants to be fit and healthy when I'm 80 so I am eating the food to achieve this.

Balance not exclusion

Now there's a food philosophy worth following over the next 10 years, my book and seminar series will be out by years end.................... Only €9.99.99 in 12 easy payments with a final payment of €500, until the next series......

bohsman

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Palio diet, or the Atkins diet or any diet that can sum up the entire spectrum of food you eat in one word however that goes for the food pyramid and the likes too.
However I do believe that success and failure can be discussed (not proven) by anacdotial evidence. Thus allowing the recipient of this information to give it a go for themselves.
I put great weight in protein over carb (it is digested slower and keeps you full for longer etc etc) however the idea of cutting out carbs altogether is more philosophical than medical IMHO. That said if people here reckon it's done wonders for them then so be it.

This seems to be only done in extreme diet cases in hitting keto in fairness. Most people are trying to cut out empty carbs where there is no other nutritional value in the food. We get plenty of carbs from veg, no need to eat pasta or whatever as well. We certainly aren't designed to eat 300g of carbs per day so as far as that goes I think most paleo people would agree with you on cutting out processed food and a balanced diet.

inc21

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Only €9.99.99 in 12 easy payments with a final payment of €500, until the next series......

Is that all? Sign me up for two copies.

thebouldwhacker

I'm not sure paleo and balanced diet are good bed fellows. Any 'diet' based on such a philosophy is intrinsically flawed, bit like basing economic theory on lose sociological theories to prove the initial economic theory.

As I feel that I'm slipping into a conversation I have already had in an other thread and I don't want to repeat I too am out.
Regards
TBW

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Palio diet, or the Atkins diet or any diet that can sum up the entire spectrum of food you eat in one word however that goes for the food pyramid and the likes too.

So you don't like it when they're easy to label and when they're not easy to label? You like what makes you feel healthy. Funny, that's my approach, only it's not the same as your diet and my diet required a lot of reading as it is unconventional.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I put great weight in protein over carb (it is digested slower and keeps you full for longer etc etc)

Fat and cholesterol keep you fuller for longer. Why not eat those?

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

however the idea of cutting out carbs altogether is more philosophical than medical IMHO.

Cutting out carbs altogether is not a philosophical idea. It is how you get into ketosis, if that is your aim. It is also a method for overweight people to reduce their body fat.

We probably all have a range of refined carbohydrate and HI GI non-refined carbohydrate we can intake. Mine is relatively low. Not so much from a weight gain perspective but with respect to blood sugar/tiredness and I err towards the lower end of the spectrum. Wheat I try to eliminate or reduce to trace amounts.

I accept that sometimes in these discussions lowering carb can seem to be all carbs but it is in particular reference to refined carbohydrate and high glycemic non refined carbohydrate, at least when I am speaking.

AstraMonti

ROK ON wrote: »

I want to be able to show my wife that the food pyramid is insane.
I want to be able to demonstrate to vegetarians that they are delusional beyond belief )by vegetarians I actually mean people that do not eat meat based protein but would seem to be addicted to carbs - most of the vegies that I know are like this).

I think it's impossible to do that. It took me a crazy amount of reading books and sites just to scratch the surface of what I am doing to my body. Unless you really invest time and energy to find out about what each thing you eat does to your body I don't think you can make anyone believe in you.

Harrybelafonte

ROK ON wrote: »

This is all important, Very important.

I want to be able to show my wife that the food pyramid is insane.
I want to be able to demonstrate to vegetarians that they are delusional beyond belief )by vegetarians I actually mean people that do not eat meat based protein but would seem to be addicted to carbs - most of the vegies that I know are like this).

We're delusional beyond belief, really? Why don't you explain why. I'm not the only vegetarian on here, but I think we'd all like an explanation of our "delusion".

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I have a friend who (truly) believes in angels, this belief has allowed this person do things I know they would not have considered without this belief so for me the means are justified. Will they throw themselves off a roof thinking that they will be protected, no,

I know an awful lot of people who believe that a guy rose from the dead after 3 days. Magiced bread and fish out of thin air , walked on water and turned wine into water. He is also is god and the son of god. And was born of an immaculate conception. His mam talked to a firey shrub too. You often see them celebrating it buying chocolate eggs and putting flashy lights on trees.

What this has to do with food choices I do not know but you brought the subject up.

AnotherView

I have read quite alot on the ketogenic diet and effects on the brain
BTW ketosis can be achieved by a low carb diet ( not a no carb diet) and for hours at a time rather than following a full ketogenic diet 24/7

I regularly work out on an empty stomach and I can go hours on no food...for one thing it stops the need for cooking and eating

I think like many things it can be suitable for SOME of the population and moving from a glucose burning workout to a ketone burning one can be difficult for many ...however the greatest benefit for me of ketogenic diet is the clarity of mind and lack of fluctuation in mood

There are numerous studies on the benefits of this diet in seizure control and neurologic disorders in children
More research is looking at the benefit in brain degenerative problems and even cancer...there is alot of research in the pipeline

My variation of the diet is as follows
I would eat at say 7pm and not again until 1pm ( 18 hour fast) ...i do this without feeling hungry .....then its fruit/veg/meat/fish/nuts/seeds/rice/potatoes/limited wine but no gluten and limited dairy with occasional gluten free treat like high quality chocolate/ice cream .....

I sure I don't have enough evidence to suit Roc-On but after alot of study this diet really works for me and improved my endurance and mood plus haven't had cold once since i started it

thebouldwhacker

When you say benefits what are they. This is a genuine question btw. I am interested in what made you decide to go down this dietary route in the first place and what has changed since?

Same to you Pete, what are the changes you have noticed, and why are you referencing Monty Python movies?

lennymc

Aaaanyway, the seminar was interesting. Apart from the ticket price, there was no trying to sell anything (that i saw). I found it to be an informative night giving a different view on the 'fats are bad' message from someone who both competes and works in sports nutrition, and someone who applies the nutritional advice and competes in cycle races (which is primarily what I was interested in).

I would recomend it, even if you don't subscribe to what the guys are saying, as it might provide you with some new insights (then again, it might not).

If you choose to follow their advice or not is entirely up to you.

thebouldwhacker

@harry, have you come across the 'no meat athlete', it may interest you.

ford2600

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

@harry, have you come across the 'no meat athlete', it may interest you.

As someone on a low carb diet, fruit and veg, and high fat, meat, fish, eggs, butter, olive oil, coconut meat and oil, avacado, cream, greek yoghurt etc, I find many benefits on bike and in general life.

Ive always been fit, but at 38 I feel stronger, have great energy, sleep better and have control over when I eat.

I started "diet"for health not weight loss. Ive lost nothing in weight but look leaner.

I can easily cycle for 5-6hrs without any food. I don't use and energy drinks. I can op er ate a chainsaw and lift wood for 6hrs without food.

I always had a healthy appetite buy felt guilty eating lamb, chicken skin and fat, cream etc. Now I enjoy ev er ry meal rather than just refuelling.

At moment im slow cooking spicy beef/pork meatballs in a chorizo tomato sauce.

What really but me on this road was High 5's "nutrition guidance" for sportive riders.

As an aside the search for a diet that suits everyone is an impossible task.

One of the nicer benefits of diet is the adding of Maldonsea salt to most plates!

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

When you say benefits what are they. This is a genuine question btw. I am interested in what made you decide to go down this dietary route in the first place and what has changed since?

Same to you Pete, what are the changes you have noticed,

I think I may have started a thread about it before.

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

and why are you referencing Monty Python movies?

You put forward the example of 1 person believing in something stupid.
I put forward the example of millions of people believing in something stupid.

petethedrummer

I'll do the other side a favour:

Benefits of carbohydrate, off the top of my head
May speed recovery after exercise.
Taste nice.
Probably good to be metabolically flexible and change ratios of your diet now and again.
Provide fuel to the brain during exercise.
Some of your good gut bacteria feed off starches.
If they don't make you fat or fall asleep you might as well eat them.
Low GI carbs will probably cause noone any problems.
You're probably better off eating sugar than the substitutes.
They're not going to kill anyone quickly.

I have nothing good to say about wheat.


And just to be clear the L in LCHF stands for LOW not NO.

thebouldwhacker

Thanks for that Pete, I have read your thread a few times and follow astra's log. I guess I'm a bit like ROK ON insofar as I am trying to monitor my diet to help my performance on the bike. Watching what works, what doesn't etc.
I am interested in the lchf claims but am also a sceptic which wants proof of these claims.
As more posters are putting up their testimonials and experiences my curiosity is certainly increasing, I have met cyclists who are on the lchf diet with various success.
The info out there is amazingly conflicting and dime a dozen websites with very dodgy claims and advice pollute the waters. Because the lchf weight loss aspect holds little interest for me I am more curious about the medical effects/ benefits I find that the reliable info I am seeking can be very hard to access. The body changing into a ketone burning machine is certainly an aspect of the lchf process which I find quite interesting and is new to me.
I think the two aspects which are of interest to me are the potential damage a lchf diet can have on the body.
And The potential rewards in performance, esp in the ability to fast, or at least increase distance between food breaks.

Also Ford, have you a link to High 5's "nutrition guidance" for sportive riders which you referenced, thanks.

petethedrummer

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Thanks for that Pete, I have read your thread a few times and follow astra's log. I guess I'm a bit like ROK ON insofar as I am trying to monitor my diet to help my performance on the bike. Watching what works, what doesn't etc.

I'm not convinced I'll go much faster as a direct consequence of the diet but what it has done is reduce recovery time, reduced asthma symptoms, lowered weight, reduced day to day tiredness, eliminated lower back pain and a few other benefits. I accept that there may be confounding factors like my reduced training load & the mild weather but it all happened within 1 week of the dietary shift when my training load was higher. I'll probably go the same speed but with less effort.

I am fairly sure it is the way to go for ultra endurance sports, whether its is the be all and end all for 1 to 2 hours of high intensity bike racing remains to be seen. That's another issue w.r.t. to LCHF, most data seems to be coming from the ultra endurance world and may be irrelevant to shorter sports. But then again the LA Lakers, Australian cricket team, Team Saxo and a few others are adoption this approach (to varying degrees), not just Tri-Athletes.

If a person has no issue with their current diet I would not change it. If you have nagging issues like being overweight despite eating "healthy", huge sugar cravings, tiredness after meals, random occurrences of asthma that you can't tie to environmental factors, overweight despite exercising, then I would consider investigating your diet.

I'll take a guess that you have always been naturally healthy, lean and fit. A change in diet is probably not going to do much for you, it may make things worse.

ford2600

Also Ford, have you a link to High 5's "nutrition guidance" for sportive riders which you referenced, thanks.[/QUOTE]

Not sure I'd call it nutrition. It's for sportive riders, a large percentage of whom are overweight wrong side of 30 and just looking to get healthy.

As regards damage to body, my shopping trolley is normally full of whole foods.

I'm not excluding carbs, just cutting them way back. If you want I'll pm you what I typically eat in a day.

You'll probably know yourself if it'll suit you before you start. Listen to your body, it works for me with regard to food, stress, people etc. I got that advice about 10 years ago and it rarely fails.

It retrospect my favorite holidays with regard to food have been
* Touring Portuguese interior
* Touring south of France
* Alaska

All of those I was eating very high fat diets, pork, goat's cheese, pate, beef,
wild meats salmon and feeling great but guilty because they were "bad" for me.

ROK ON

Pete

Do you have any reading for reduction in asthma.

I get chronic seasonal asthma - have been on steroids for a month and no where near a bike. So I would be interested in that aspect.

I have been giving more thought to the conundrum that I have.
The best I can put it is as follows.

Astra Monti by his own admission had an appalling diet of crap and highly processed food.

Astra know notices a significant improvement.

I would live to know how much of that improvement (indicated by recent medical tests) is due to cutting out processed food and how much is due to exclusively to lchf. That is, is it sufficient to cut out processed food or do more of the benefits come in a two stage process - (i) cut out junk and (ii) transition to lchf.

The only way I think that this could be answered is by taking a live experiment with triplets who have similar body weight/fat/bloods etc.
All have a crap high processed food/White carb diet.

The experiment involves giving up high processed food completely.

One eats low GI carbs.
One eats a balanced diet of carb and proteins with no processed food
One eats lchf.

All follow same exercise program.

That experiment would begin to answer queries that are difficult to answer.

Thanks for all the links Pete and Astra.

To make this more interesting I have entered into a bet witha mate of mine who is similaly overweight.

Competition is to see who loses most body fat from Jan to March.
Winner takes loser to Shanahans for the ultimate lchf meal :-)

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

Do you have any reading for reduction in asthma.

Nothing much to hand. You'll just have to go googling. Here's the asthma association of America.... http://www.aafa.org/display.cfm?id=9&sub=20&cont=519

This lad tried everything and came to the same conclusions as me: http://jdmoyer.com/2010/07/17/how-i-cured-my-asthma-with-one-simple-lifestyle-change/

This wasn't an intention when I started, more of a welcome side effect. My asthma has randomly come and gone over the years and I've never been able to nail down why. So I cannot say with 100% certainty that it is the wheat and not just another random clearing up of symptoms.

El Director

Lads,

I was at the seminar too, just wondering if any of you guys got the summary notes??

ryan_sherlock

Sorry - was putting it together - will get it out to those who were there as soon as I can.

El Director

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

Sorry - was putting it together - will get it out to those who were there as soon as I can.

Thanks Ryan, fair play.