AVB has been sacked, Sherwood appointed

KingdomYid

Small time club??? haha. Yes we are so small time that we are in the top 6 clubs in England. Yes laugh at our situation now but to call us small time is wrong.

eagle eye

CSF wrote: »

He really hasn't. He had the honeymoon period that most managers that come into a club with decent players mid-season get. He has blatantly been shown up as lacking tactical ability since then.

How can you say that its been a honemoon period? He has been in charge of them for 12 games and have showed great form, good enough to make the ECL if they keep it up. If they had played at the same level for the first 17 games of the season as they have since Sherwood has taken over they would currently be lying second in the table.

A lot of people are going off the deep end because of what happened against Chelsea which is ridiculous when you look at the two squads and the gap in class between them.

Mr Alan

eagle eye wrote: »

good enough to make the ECL if they keep it up.

How'd you figure that?

CSF

eagle eye wrote: »

How can you say that its been a honemoon period? He has been in charge of them for 12 games and have showed great form, good enough to make the ECL if they keep it up. If they had played at the same level for the first 17 games of the season as they have since Sherwood has taken over they would currently be lying second in the table.

A lot of people are going off the deep end because of what happened against Chelsea which is ridiculous when you look at the two squads and the gap in class between them.

They've lost 3 of their last 5 games despite not awfully difficult fixtures in that time. That would indicate poor recent form to me after the honeymoon period where they never looked that organised to begin with.

eagle eye

Mr Alan wrote: »

How'd you figure that?

Because 73 points has only once not been enough to make the ECL from the Premier League. Well fourth place I mean.

eagle eye

CSF wrote: »

They've lost 3 of their last 5 games despite not awfully difficult fixtures in that time. That would indicate poor recent form to me after the honeymoon period where they never looked that organised to begin with.

Your sample size is tiny, and the lost two and won three of their last five EPL games. Are you including the Dnipro games? That is a two legged affair and they won their way through it.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

Because 73 points has only once not been enough to make the ECL from the Premier League. Well fourth place I mean.

They need 20 points from 27 to achieve that.

Liverpool and Arsenal only need 14 points from 30 to achieve 73 points as a comparison, both have far superior goal differences to Spurs too. It would need collapse from either team.

City are on 57 points but have 3 games in hand over Spurs.

I have a feeling the points total for 4th will be higher this year tbh, perhaps 75-76 points.

eagle eye

rarnes1 wrote: »

They need 20 points from 27 to achieve that.

Liverpool and Arsenal only need 14 points from 30 to achieve 73 points as a comparison, both have far superior goal differences to Spurs too. It would need collapse from either team.

City are on 57 points but have 3 games in hand over Spurs.

I have a feeling the points total for 4th will be higher this year tbh, perhaps 75-76 points.

Fair enough, but for if you averaged for a full season the games that Sherwood has been in charge for, it would leave Tottenham with 82 points. My point was that they have shown ECL qualification form under him.

K-9

eagle eye wrote: »

Your sample size is tiny, and the lost two and won three of their last five EPL games. Are you including the Dnipro games? That is a two legged affair and they won their way through it.

In fairness your sample size isn't that large either, to me it seems the initial bounce is over and when the pressure came on, he isn't good enough.

eagle eye

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness your sample size isn't that large either, to me it seems the initial bounce is over and when the pressure came on, he isn't good enough.

What are you basing that on? Two losses, one of which was to Chelsea?

CSF

eagle eye wrote: »

Your sample size is tiny, and the lost two and won three of their last five EPL games. Are you including the Dnipro games? That is a two legged affair and they won their way through it.

Last 5 games is what current form is usually based on which was what I was referring to.

K-9

eagle eye wrote: »

What are you basing that on? Two losses, one of which was to Chelsea?

Not on Europa cup, I'd say the majority of Spurs fans could live without it. They were 3 points behind Liverpool a couple of weeks ago.

I'm basing it on Norwich and Hull Away, worrying results considering they've the best away form in the league. Seems to be going pear shaped despite being in a very good position 5 games ago.

eagle eye

K-9 wrote: »

Not on Europa cup, I'd say the majority of Spurs fans could live without it. They were 3 points behind Liverpool a couple of weeks ago.

I'm basing it on Norwich and Hull Away, worrying results considering they've the best away form in the league. Seems to be going pear shaped despite being in a very good position 5 games ago.

So you are going all the way back to the hull game and just dismissing the Newcastle game even though they beat Chelsea and drew with Liverpool?
Also Hull beat Liverpool this season.

You really only have one game to talk about and that's the Norwich one and you realise just how ridiculous that is but you just want to save face I'd imagine?

LuckyLloyd

Silly getting into a debate with EE here. This is just the start of the unravelling. The case will be much stronger by season's end.

irishmover

rob316 wrote: »

I call them small time because they are historically and in recent times a selling club. Spurs has consistently sold there best players, while the profits have been handsome, stability is the key to success or bucket loads of money ala City, Chelsea which Spurs don't have.

Bale, Modric and Berbatov have now defined us as a small time club because they were sold.

Grand, well atleast I know that how big a club you are is decided on what players you sell.

Sure while we're at it lets call Arsenal a small club too.

RVP, Song, Fabregas, Samir Nasri, Adebayor, Kolo Toure, Thierry Henry

They were all sold to make a profit at a time when they were all reaching peak performances at the club (albeit Henry might have been on the downer but still it's Henry and he still had years of service left in him).

This whole "My club is a bigger club than your club" ****e needs to stop really.

Spurs have a decent history, not close to Arsenals albeit but a decent history having them joint 5th in England on total trophies won.

What defines the cut off of a big club? Is Manchester City a big club because they now have a stupid amount of cash? They've won 16 trophies in their history including since they were bought out.

Are we actually going in the direction of a club is only as big as the amount of money in their wallets? Because if that's the direction football is heading in, a pure business entity, I'm looking forward to not being part of it.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Silly getting into a debate with EE here. This is just the start of the unravelling. The case will be much stronger by season's end.

Maybe their will be a strong case, and you'll claim to be Nostradamus!, but at this time there is nothing to talk about only how well Sherwood has done.

Sherwood is a smart guy, I know that from his time at Blackburn when he was Captain there, I remember how he forced his way out to go play for Spurs too. He is not my favourite person but I do believe he has what it takes to do a good job in management. To this point his results have suggested that I'm right to believe that, we'll see how it goes over the next couple of months and maybe years. If he does well enough to continue into next season then he might show more because he will have time to stamp his own authority on things.

Bandana boy

Tim has looked out of his depth since he took over ,quite a few results went Spurs way against the run of play in the game (Utd & Everton to name just two).

It is only a matter of time before it unravels.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

Maybe their will be a strong case, and you'll claim to be Nostradamus!, but at this time there is nothing to talk about only how well Sherwood has done.

Sherwood is a smart guy, I know that from his time at Blackburn when he was Captain there, I remember how he forced his way out to go play for Spurs too. He is not my favourite person but I do believe he has what it takes to do a good job in management. To this point his results have suggested that I'm right to believe that, we'll see how it goes over the next couple of months and maybe years. If he does well enough to continue into next season then he might show more because he will have time to stamp his own authority on things.

Spurs have obtained good results over his tenure to date. It's a small sample size, but you can't argue with the ppg rate. Those trying to argue with you on that score are being silly.

Now, I do feel there is an unravelling due. I don't think Sherwood has much in the locker tactically and I think he's been put in a very difficult position as interim manager. I fully expect their results to worsen between now and season's end. If he's smart, he'll prioritise the Europa League. The best thing he could do for himself is win a trophy and I think that group of players will sniff it if they get to the quarter final stage (and they're potentially good enough to win that competition).

I think it will be impossible for him to keep the job for long. Levy is probably working on a long term replacement for AVB as we speak. At the very least the sword will be dangling above his head through the early phase of next season.

JPA

You only have to look at Spurs line ups since he took over to know he is struggling.
He's from the Harry Redknapp school of management, stick 11 good players on the field and tell them to "express" themselves.

klose

Whatever about avbs/sherwoods individual tactics and approaches to games still playing a high line with dawson in it is hillariously bad

Morzadec

Morzadec wrote: »

At the risk of being quoted later in the season and having a lot of egg on my face, I can only say this is a laughable and farcical appointment.

I said to a Spurs mate that is they appointed Hoddle they would be a laughing stock. I didn't think they'd go one better.

A manager with zero experience in the game. I would be pulling my hair out if I was a Spurs fan.

I can only call it as I see this and say that it is a shocking appointment, in every meaning of the word.

This is what I wrote about Sherwood when he was appointed.

I have to say he's had me eating my words to an extent.

He has achieved 2ppg which is CL qualifying form over the course of a whole season and kept them in Europa.

The 4-0 loss against Chelsea shouldn't be held against him too much when you consider they went down to 10 unfairly.

I believe Spurs would be in a worse position if they had stuck with AVB, so perhaps as a short term strategy it wasn't a bad call.

But long term I still have major doubts over him as a manager at the highest level. As has been mentioned he has shown a tactical naïveté at times, and at the highest level in big matches this can be costly. I thought his comments a few weeks ago where he said they could afford to lose 4 or 5 matches and still qualify for the CL showed a shocking level of ignorance about the quality of teams around him and the points totals relative to the matches ahead, and that would worry me as a Spurs fan - his overall savvyness and intelligence.

He does seem to be a good motivator, probably a good man manager. I can imagine him firing up his players and striking a good balance between non-nonsense and being likable. I can imagine he would be good at creating a good team spirit. Again it's hard to judge these things but it's the impression I've gotten watching Spurs and seeing his interviews.

So I think he might have that part of management down well. But like I said I do think there's question marks over his experience and know how at the top level, and I would still say that long term he will not be the answer to Spurs' problems. I think he could find success at a lower level (Championship?) in the future.

However Spurs are in a position now where they can really hone in on and prioritise the Europa league. If Sherwood could deliver that it would be a major achievement for both Spurs and him as a manager.

grumpymunster

Morzadec wrote: »

This is what I wrote about Sherwood when he was appointed.

I have to say he's had me eating my words to an extent.

He has achieved 2ppg which is CL qualifying form over the course of a whole season and kept them in Europa.

The 4-0 loss against Chelsea shouldn't be held against him too much when you consider they went down to 10 unfairly.

I believe Spurs would be in a worse position if they had stuck with AVB, so perhaps as a short term strategy it wasn't a bad call.

But long term I still have major doubts over him as a manager at the highest level. As has been mentioned he has shown a tactical naïveté at times, and at the highest level in big matches this can be costly. I thought his comments a few weeks ago where he said they could afford to lose 4 or 5 matches and still qualify for the CL showed a shocking level of ignorance about the quality of teams around him and the points totals relative to the matches ahead, and that would worry me as a Spurs fan - his overall savvyness and intelligence.

He does seem to be a good motivator, probably a good man manager. I can imagine him firing up his players and striking a good balance between non-nonsense and being likable. I can imagine he would be good at creating a good team spirit. Again it's hard to judge these things but it's the impression I've gotten watching Spurs and seeing his interviews.

So I think he might have that part of management down well. But like I said I do think there's question marks over his experience and know how at the top level, and I would still say that long term he will not be the answer to Spurs' problems. I think he could find success at a lower level (Championship?) in the future.

However Spurs are in a position now where they can really hone in on and prioritise the Europa league. If Sherwood could deliver that it would be a major achievement for both Spurs and him as a manager.

Had the linesman done his job correctly Spurs would have been down to 10 men for pretty much all of the match.

GavRedKing

grumpymunster wrote: »

Had the linesman done his job correctly Spurs would have been down to 10 men for pretty much all of the match.

Very true, although the FA have rescinded Kabouls red.

http://www.thefa.com/news/governance/2014/mar/kaboul-decision-upheld

Gbear

rarnes1 wrote: »

I don't think anyone was under the impression that AVB was sacked so Sherwood could take charge.

Certainly just terrible decision making all round - complete lack of any vision for the club.

djPSB

To think that Spurs overlooked the likes of Benitez before appointing AVB.

Madness.

LuckyLloyd

Sherwood getting owned a little be Jorge Jesus tonight. Wonder will be give another cute little post match interview.

bad2dabone

eagle eye wrote: »

showed great form, good enough to make the ECL if they keep it up.

if they make the CL they would be massacred.

Courtesy Flush

Sherwood seems like a class act

Dempsey

Courtesy Flush wrote: »

Sherwood seems like a class act

Jorge Jesus pushing and barking at his own staff was fairly classless imo, never mind his gestures to Sherwood to wind him up

LiamoSail

Ken Early brought it up there the other night,that what AVB was pillared for, the perceived slating of the players (We should be ashamed row with the Daly Mail), Sherwood has gotten away with (slating the players after the Chelsea game), with the blame being attributed to the mess Sherwood inherited by the Daily Mail. Disgraceful really

greendom

So pilloring his players in public didn't work. I wonder what Sherwood's next management master-stroke will be?

djPSB

greendom wrote: »

So pilloring his players in public didn't work. I wonder what Sherwood's next management master-stroke will be?

Should give head butting a go.

MrKingsley

greendom wrote: »

So pilloring his players in public didn't work. I wonder what Sherwood's next management master-stroke will be?

Hes only been in the job three months.

I think he was right in what he said after the chelsea match but he didnt get anywhere near the reaction he wanted. Why? Because hes only been in the job three months

Godge

eagle eye wrote: »

How can you say that its been a honemoon period? He has been in charge of them for 12 games and have showed great form, good enough to make the ECL if they keep it up.

Is that ECL the English Championship League?

LiamoSail

MrKingsley wrote: »

Hes only been in the job three months.

I think he was right in what he said after the chelsea match but he didnt get anywhere near the reaction he wanted. Why? Because hes only been in the job three months

I'd struggle to think of another successful EPL manager who has said similar, I don't mean simply criticise players, but to question their commitment, attitude and professionalism

2nd Row Donkey

LiamoSail wrote: »

I'd struggle to think of another successful EPL manager who has said similar, I don't mean simply criticise players, but to question their commitment, attitude and professionalism

Phil Brown at hull a few years ago... Worked out well from him.

*walks away whistling*

ArmaniJeanss

rarnes1 wrote: »

AVB v Sherwood pic.

Thats like something out of North Korea Nightly News.
AVBs games appear to be including the playoff for the Europa plus the 6 Europa group games against really poor opposition, and soft opposition in the early stages of the League Cup - basically a poor quality of opponent that you don't face when you get the managers gig for the second half of the season.

MrKingsley

LiamoSail wrote: »

I'd struggle to think of another successful EPL manager who has said similar, I don't mean simply criticise players, but to question their commitment, attitude and professionalism

Well the first problem is that he is not a successful EPL manager. If he already had the confidence of all the players, which may come from being a successful manager, then theres probably no way hed say something like that.

He has every right to criticse them for their performance. The decision then comes as to whether it ins public or not.

If he does it in the press then hed want to be sure that hell get a response......which he certainly didnt tonight. He may learn as he goes on or he may just pop back onto the bench when the next man comes in.

Either way I think he was right to say what he did

greendom

MrKingsley wrote: »

Hes only been in the job three months.

I think he was right in what he said after the chelsea match but he didnt get anywhere near the reaction he wanted. Why? Because hes only been in the job three months

He was right in what he said but it should have kept it in the changing room. It may have gone down well among certain supporters and sections of the media but it was disastrous in terms of his long-term relationship with his players. If he'd been lucky it might have had a short term effect, but it didn't even achieve that. Dead man walking

KingdomYid

Godge wrote: »

Is that ECL the English Championship League?

Christ we are bad, but lets not get out of hand here

Demosthenese

greendom wrote: »

He was right in what he said but it should have kept it in the changing room. It may have gone down well among certain supporters and sections of the media but it was disastrous in terms of his long-term relationship with his players. If he'd been lucky it might have had a short term effect, but it didn't even achieve that. Dead man walking

Lack of experience showed here, he was probably correct in what he was saying, he seems to wear his heart on his sleeve - of course we all know that can bite you in the backside!

I get the feeling Sherwood initially thought that Spurs were better than they are when he first took over. So the hammer blow of results hurts worse.

Spurs paying the price of an appointment that was risky to say the least.

LiamoSail

MrKingsley wrote: »

Well the first problem is that he is not a successful EPL manager. If he already had the confidence of all the players, which may come from being a successful manager, then theres probably no way hed say something like that.

He has every right to criticse them for their performance. The decision then comes as to whether it ins public or not.

If he does it in the press then hed want to be sure that hell get a response......which he certainly didnt tonight. He may learn as he goes on or he may just pop back onto the bench when the next man comes in.

Either way I think he was right to say what he did

I didn't mean to imply he was a successful manager, though I can see my post did read like that.

My point was I can't think of a single premier league manager who did something like Sherwood, yet was still successful.

While his sentiments may have been correct, in airing them publicly I believe he made a mistake. I don't think its a coincidence that no successful manager in the English league has done similar, so either Sherwood is a pioneer in the art of man-management, and Spurs are about to burst into form, or he made a mistake airing those views. I know which option I'd back

MrKingsley

greendom wrote: »

He was right in what he said but it should have kept it in the changing room. It may have gone down well among certain supporters and sections of the media but it was disastrous in terms of his long-term relationship with his players. If he'd been lucky it might have had a short term effect, but it didn't even achieve that. Dead man walking

Hes been a dead man walking since he took over.

He said from the start that he didnt want an 'interim' appointment. This contract was the only way levy could make it look like he had something else up his sleeve......when clearly he didnt. but it bought him 6 more months

MrKingsley

LiamoSail wrote: »

I didn't mean to imply he was a successful manager, though I can see my post did read like that.

My point was I can't think of a single premier league manager who did something like Sherwood, yet was still successful.

While his sentiments may have been correct, in airing them publicly I believe he made a mistake. I don't think its a coincidence that no successful manager in the English league has done similar, so either Sherwood is a pioneer in the art of man-management, and Spurs are about to burst into form, or he made a mistake airing those views. I know which option I'd back

And i would back the same one because he is not ready for full time management in a top league. Like i said earlier this is his 3rd month in the job. He tried to get a reaction and it failed miserably.

Im not trying to say that what he did was a good way of trying to get his players to perform.

Either way spurs are playing like crap and he probably thought that after AVB having a go at the fans hed try and do something different

Kylo Ren

rarnes1 wrote: »

Looking only at the league it's:

AVB
16 Games
1.69 Pts/game
0.94 Avg scored
1.31 Avg conceded
50% Win rate
31% Loss rate

Sherwood
13 Games
2 Pts/game
1.69 Avg scored
1.23 Avg conceded
62% Win rate
23% Loss rate

Rikand

AVB, poo in the league, but pro in europe!
Sherwood, poo in Europe. but pro in the league!

dreamers75

Rikand wrote: »

AVB, poo in the league, but pro in europe!
Sherwood, poo in Europe. but pro in the league!

So spurs = poo ?

Keno

Keno wrote: »

Looking only at the league it's:

AVB
16 Games
1.69 Pts/game
0.94 Avg scored
1.31 Avg conceded
50% Win rate
31% Loss rate

Sherwood
13 Games
2 Pts/game
1.69 Avg scored
1.23 Avg conceded
62% Win rate
23% Loss rate

Bring back AvB for the Europa Cup games only I say and let Sherwood concentrate on the league games.

Morzadec

Keno wrote: »

Looking only at the league it's:

AVB
16 Games
1.69 Pts/game
0.94 Avg scored
1.31 Avg conceded
50% Win rate
31% Loss rate

Sherwood
13 Games
2 Pts/game
1.69 Avg scored
1.23 Avg conceded
62% Win rate
23% Loss rate

To be fair to Sherwood, that is impressive league form - 2ppg. If they maintained that until seasons end there would be a decent argument for keeping him on, as they would end up on 71 points - a pretty good tally. Big 'if' though as there is a sense things might be turning against him