AVB has been sacked, Sherwood appointed

Lord TSC

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Seems like a reaction to yesterday's result, which is crazy.

Really isn't. Not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, but there'd been talk all week that he was hanging on by a thread. It's not just a reaction one bad result yesterday by the sounds of it, and it's not like this came out of nowhere.

messinkiapina

Bit harsh I think. It can't be easy trying to bed so many new players in at once. I can't see who they can bring in right now that will be certain to do a better job, there aren't any obvious top quality managers available right now.

smileyj1987

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Seems like a reaction to yesterday's result, which is crazy. Liverpool were excellent first half but you only have to read the matchday thread here to see that Spurs were starting to come into it before they had a player sent off. 3 goals came after that sending off.

I wouldn't even use the sending off as reason for their loss . Soldaldo had two decent chances and ballooned them . Not what you would expect from a player that cost as mush as Suarez and RVP .
What lost the game for them was the fact of the high defensive line and the fact Liverpool played like a team possessed . Liverpool where constantly hounding them and winning the ball back .
So yesterday was typical spurs for this season they have looked all over the shop . The team hasn't gelled and will needs time to gel . You can't make wholesale changes like they did in the summer and expect it to work overnight .

PhlegmyMoses

Neil3030 wrote: »

I haven't seen Spurs at all really this season. How many goals were actually conceded directly from counter attacks exploiting this "suicidally high line"?

I only watched them against United and Liverpool. May have seen other games but don't remember.

It was evident against United but not exploited (penalty won from a through ball but the defence was okay here) but against Liverpool it was mental.

PhlegmyMoses

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Really isn't. Not saying I agree or disagree with the decision, but there'd been talk all week that he was hanging on by a thread. It's not just a reaction one bad result yesterday by the sounds of it, and it's not like this came out of nowhere.

Right, but if Spurs lost 2-1 or 3-2, does he get sacked? Not for me. And that sending off consigned them to defeat as any momentum they were building in the game was crushed. They still would have lost, just not as heavily.

rosskind

I really like AVB as a manager but it's quite understandable. A hammering like that only weeks after City shows he hadn't learned his lesson. That was a suicidally high defensive line, especially with Capoue getting thrown in at the back. Also BAE getting loaned to QPR, could he have done better than Naughton yesterday. He's been poor whenever I've seen him this year, although that's been mostly Europa. I know he's 2nd (3rd been Vert) LB but that was a strange decision. (Open to correction on my judgement of the two by more regular viewers.) The whole handling with the media (as unfair as it was on him) could have been dealt with better, signs he wasn't dealing with the pressure perhaps?

Snake Plisken

Baldini should be sacked as well he spent the 100M we got for Bale, AVB all but admitted these were not his signings! Levy has a lot to answer for we had Comolli as DOF a few years back and that nearly ended up with us being relegated when his man Ramos was put into place after Martin Jol! The manager needs some input into the players the club buys! God help us spurs fans if we get Capello, we might as well appoint Trappatoni!

Morzadec

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I only watched them against United and Liverpool. May have seen other games but don't remember.

It was evident against United but not exploited (penalty won from a through ball but the defence was okay here) but against Liverpool it was mental.

And against City I think (only saw a part of the game, perhaps those who saw it could confirm this).

The problem isn't the tactic (which has helped Spurs dominate a lot of their games possession-wise) - the problem is employing this tactic against players who clearly have the quality to hurt you in this system.

And when the positives (an increased ability to control the game) aren't coming off or resulting in goals being scored) it becomes more questionable and risky.

It possibly shows a lack of tactical flexibility too.

But as I said, the main criticism is doing it against sides who have players which are capable of really exploiting it.

DeanAustin

smileyj1987 wrote: »

I wouldn't even use the sending off as reason for their loss . Soldaldo had two decent chances and ballooned them . Not what you would expect from a player that cost as mush as Suarez and RVP .
What lost the game for them was the fact of the high defensive line and the fact Liverpool played like a team possessed . Liverpool where constantly hounding them and winning the ball back .
So yesterday was typical spurs for this season they have looked all over the shop . The team hasn't gelled and will needs time to gel . You can't make wholesale changes like they did in the summer and expect it to work overnight .

No one expects it to work overnight. The fact is that AVB looked clueless. Take the 3 players playing off the striker in his system.

He's had Holtby, Lamela, Paulinho, Lennon, Townsend, Sigurdsson and Eriksen and there's been no consistency in the selection and consequently the performances of all of these players has been pretty poor. He has too many players for those positions and not a clue what to do with them.

As a result, Soldado has been left stranded with no service. So not only is he making a balls of the attacking mids, he's making a balls of the £26 million striker too.

At the back, the high line has been ridiculous especially with Dawson. Dawson's decent but not in that system. See the City game where 2-3 goals came from that system. See Newcastle where the winning goal was because we played that system with a 41 year old keeper. Daft stuff. He's had our best centre back covering at left back for half the season. That's bonkers stuff too.

He had to go.

DeanAustin

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Baldini should be sacked as well he spent the 100M we got for Bale, AVB all but admitted these were not his signings! Levy has a lot to answer for we had Comolli as DOF a few years back and that nearly ended up with us being relegated when his man Ramos was put into place after Martin Jol! The manager needs some input into the players the club buys! God help us spurs fans if we get Capello, we might as well appoint Trappatoni!

Levy had Trapattoni lined up in 2004 but his wife wouldn't move so he got Santini instead. Don't rule it out.

JPA

I think most of the Spurs signings will come good but when you sign them all from abroad their is going to be 6 months to a year of settling in.

I think the Lamela signing was a mad one, so much on such an inexperienced player.

PhlegmyMoses

Morzadec wrote: »

And against City I think (only saw a part of the game, perhaps those who saw it could confirm this).

The problem isn't the tactic (which has helped Spurs dominate a lot of their games possession-wise) - the problem is employing this tactic against players who clearly have the quality to hurt you in this system.

And when the positives (an increased ability to control the game) aren't coming off or resulting in goals being scored) it becomes more questionable and risky.

It possibly shows a lack of tactical flexibility too.

But as I said, the main criticism is doing it against sides who have players which are capable of really exploiting it.

It's also the personell. If you have a young Rio Ferdinand or Ledley King, it may work against most because of their recovery pace. If you have Michael Dawson or the likes of John Terry, you'll struggle

Playboy

He has to be compared to Rodgers who has had a similar amount of time as him at a new club with squads of a similar level. After 18 months Rodgers brand of football is plain to see and while he isn't winning every game he is doing very well on limited resources. His football style and philosophy has been implemented and is working in stark contrast to AVB's whose team performances have been getting progressively worse and a talented squad showing no signs of what they should be capable of.

And whilst you can look at the table and say that Spurs aren't doing so bad, the reality is that Spurs look a poor side. It isnt like Spurs are playing well and losing, Spurs are getting hammered by good opposition and scraping wins against very poor opposition. Fulham deserved to beat us the other week. No Spurs fan i know are deluded enough to think that we should be challenging for the title or a shoe in for top 4 given the amount of changes in the summer. However they do expect that the managers brand of football has been implemented and working and that the squad and style of play is progressing. I said at the beginning of the season that I didnt expect top 4 as it would be a season of transition but it is one thing putting up with poor results and another thing putting up with poor results and abject team performances where players look absolutely clueless as to what is expected of them.

It is unfortunate that the Martinez ship has sailed as he was number one on my wishlist to replace Harry. Not sure who we could get now... dont fancy Laudrup or Cappello and Pochettino isnt proven enough. I will literally cry if they appoint Hoddle again or Tim Sherwood as interim. Hiddink is the only option that excites me but no way Roman would let that happen.

Francie Barrett

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Baldini should be sacked as well he spent the 100M we got for Bale, AVB all but admitted these were not his signings! Levy has a lot to answer for we had Comolli as DOF a few years back and that nearly ended up with us being relegated when his man Ramos was put into place after Martin Jol! The manager needs some input into the players the club buys! God help us spurs fans if we get Capello, we might as well appoint Trappatoni!

Too early to call judgement on the signings. Remember AVB lambasted the same players who then went on to win the CL. If Capello gets the job, then I suspect he will get better performances out of the players.

Snake Plisken

Rodgers might be playing football he wants but lets say they lose Saurez at Xmas to Real Madrid, it will be interesting to see if his style of Football can continue without such a standout player like Saurez! Similar with Spurs losing Bale the players brought in haven't been able to match what we lost in Bale!

Knex*

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Rodgers might be playing football he wants but lets say they lose Saurez at Xmas to Real Madrid, it will be interesting to see if his style of Football can continue without such a standout player like Saurez! Similar with Spurs losing Bale the players brought in haven't been able to match what we lost in Bale!

Our, 'Give the ball to Suarez', tactic would be rightly screwed, alright.

No way he leaves before next summer though. What would be the point in digging in last summer, only to sell in January?

eagle eye

Crazy decision to sack him imo. I was just after finishing discussing at home and how people were saying AVB should be sacked after that loss and thinking if it had of happened that you'd feel like an awful do sacking him when you seen arsenal shilling six there the weekend.

ctrl-alt-delete

Levy is a clever man, it is a tough call between himself and Delaney in the FAI to be the ultimate untouchable.

He has a hell of a lot of answers to give, but once again manages to throw out a whole heap of new questions to side step the firing line.

I am pie

He's too dogmatic, not pragmatic enough to realise that some changes in his preferred system are required to fit the players he had fit and available.

Rogers realised that he had to tinker with a system last year which was costing Liverpool goals and points. It's all very well and good saying that other sides play a high line very effectively but they don't line up with a anyone quite so slow and easy to turn as Dawson.

That said, he should have been given the time to change his ways, it's highly unlikely Spurs will get anyone better for the team by the end of the season. June 2014 was the time to look at it, not pre Xmas this year.

Anyone

How has a topic about AVB being sacked turned into a Rogers thread?

CSF

DeanAustin wrote: »

City have no shortage of takers despite sacking a man who won them the league and finished second.

Chelsea sacked a man who won them two leagues, sacked another who'd won a double and finished second the following season and sacked a Champions League winning manager.

People queue up for these jobs because football managers have egos that make them think they'll succeed where others fail. That and they'll get a nice payout even if they f**k it up.

There will be no shortage of takers for the job.

Different level of player at those 2 clubs.

Cienciano

Shocking decision. The good thing is I can get back to hating Spurs again. No doubt Harrys mates in the media will be saying he deserved to go.

DeanAustin

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Levy is a clever man, it is a tough call between himself and Delaney in the FAI to be the ultimate untouchable.

He has a hell of a lot of answers to give, but once again manages to throw out a whole heap of new questions to side step the firing line.

When Levy took over Spurs, they hadn't finished in the top six in over a decade. They had players like Gary Doherty, Ben Thatcher, Tim Sherwood and so on on the books.

He's brought Spurs to a place where

1. They have finished in the top 6 in six out of eight seasons.
2. The club is financially very stable.
3. He's screwed many clubs for every last cent on transfers (sometimes to the short term detriment of Spurs admittedly).

All this in an era when two clubs (City and Chelsea) have won the lottery.

Levy has made mistakes but is doing a good job.

niallo27

There was a point at the end of the first ball when Dawson got the ball. He was under a small bit of pressure and he just kicked it straight out of play. I couldn't imagine a Liverpool centre half doing that under Rodgers.

Lord TSC

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Right, but if Spurs lost 2-1 or 3-2, does he get sacked? Not for me. And that sending off consigned them to defeat as any momentum they were building in the game was crushed. They still would have lost, just not as heavily.

All I'm saying is the talk of his sacking was there before the match, and even at 2-0, you could see on his face that he knew things weren't going well. I think any loss would have seen a strong discussion of his sacking; the 5-0 just made that discussion a lot shorter.

bad2dabone

DeanAustin wrote: »

When Levy took over Spurs, they hadn't finished in the top six in over a decade. They had players like Gary Doherty, Ben Thatcher, Tim Sherwood and so on on the books.

He's brought Spurs to a place where

1. They have finished in the top 6 in six out of eight seasons.
2. The club is financially very stable.
3. He's screwed many clubs for every last cent on transfers (sometimes to the short term detriment of Spurs admittedly).

All this in an era when two clubs (City and Chelsea) have won the lottery.

Levy has made mistakes but is doing a good job.

all true.

Spurs have done very well to establish themselves as a properly threatening club in the past decade, especially when the likes of Chelsea and City are playing with unlimited resources. It seems that AVB's abrasive personality has obviously rubbed people in the club, players/directors up the wrong way. There's been something very wrong about their performances this season when most folks thought they'd be a real force with their new signings. I still feel they'll be a dangerous side with the right manager.

spiritcrusher

Anyone wrote: »

How has a topic about AVB being sacked turned into a Rogers thread?

I think it's because, at this point in time, a comparison between the two shows where AVB has fallen down. They both come from similar backgrounds of coaching but you can see one who believes he has the perfect system and makes his players fit into it while another has players of varying abilities but can devise a system that plays to their strengths.
AVB has rigidly stuck to his tactics, almost forcing them on his players, while Rodgers has been going between two or three different formations depending on who's available, the opposition and how effective different formations have been.
Now he may get found out in future, this may be his peak while AVB is having a dip but I think it's fair to compare both men.

I like AVB, I think it's a stupid decision to sack him, but his lack of any plan B was suicidal really.

DeanAustin

CSF wrote: »

Different level of player at those 2 clubs.

And there is less expectation at Spurs than at City or Chelsea. Can't imagine Spurs sacking a man that gets them second especially after winning the league. And wasn't that your original point? That the Spurs job came with too much pressure?

Relative to City and Chelsea, there is less pressure at Spurs which is why they will have no shortage of candidates.

mike65

Anyone wrote: »

How has a topic about AVB being sacked turned into a Rogers thread?

Comparisons are odious entertaining!

Ultimately AVB got promoted above his station, At Porto he got lucky, inheriting
a squad that was a division above the rest of the Portuguese league that year, the best of them were sold on for fortunes as Villas-Boas got the call to Chelsea. It would have been instructive to have seen the manager cope with that exodus then everyone else would have had a much clearer idea of his actual capabilities.

average_runner

DeanAustin wrote: »

When Levy took over Spurs, they hadn't finished in the top six in over a decade. They had players like Gary Doherty, Ben Thatcher, Tim Sherwood and so on on the books.

He's brought Spurs to a place where

1. They have finished in the top 6 in six out of eight seasons.
2. The club is financially very stable.
3. He's screwed many clubs for every last cent on transfers (sometimes to the short term detriment of Spurs admittedly).

All this in an era when two clubs (City and Chelsea) have won the lottery.

Levy has made mistakes but is doing a good job.

Sure Everton have done that on no budget!!!

I think Spurs have wasted alot of money over the last few years, trying to buy quick success!!

partyguinness

mike65 wrote: »

Comparisons are odious entertaining!

Ultimately AVB got promoted above his station, At Porto he got lucky, inheriting
a squad that was a division above the rest of the Portuguese league that year, the best of them were sold on for fortunes as Villas-Boas got the call to Chelsea. It would have been instructive to have seen the manager cope with that exodus then everyone else would have had a much clearer idea of his actual capabilities.

Yes that's a point a lot of people miss. Put me in charge of Celtic for a season and I am confident of winning at least 2 trophies. 10 seasons and I'll deliver the CL according to Championship Manager...:D

kryogen

Not surprising and he must have known with bringing in so many players for so much money over the summer he was going to be under pressure to be very very good.

It should also have been expected that the new players would take time to gel and learn to play together and they would most likely see the benefit of signing so many talented players next year at the earlier. I actually posted something similar to that around the time and said that if they stuck with him this season they would have seen the benefits long term. We still don't actually know how good a manager he is you know.

He over achieved at Porto I feel, or at least you cant point to that as evidence of brilliance, he tried to change too much too soon at Chelsea and was not backed by the board, so you can argue he was not given a fair crack there. At Spurs he seemed to try to take a slower approach but then it went out the window in the summer by bringing so many new faces in, as seen with QPR that can be a disaster, City didn't bring in loads of players and just win the league, they needed time to gel together, then they won the league.

My thoughts are a little all over the place sorry, Im not surprised he got the bullet but I think they should have given him more time. If they believed in his project they should have seen it through, if not then they should not have hired him in the first place.

Playboy

average_runner wrote: »

Sure Everton have done that on no budget!!!

I think Spurs have wasted alot of money over the last few years, trying to buy quick success!!

Spurs have an extremely talented squad. In the hands of a manager of a manger who knows how to get the best out of his players they will be a real force. I honestly think Spurs are a left back and midfield playmaker short of a title challenging side.

There are very few players in the spurs squad who I would get rid of. Defoe, Naughton, Friedal and maybe Adebayor if a new coach cant get him motivated.

dfx-

Cienciano wrote: »

No doubt Harrys mates in the media will be saying he deserved to go.

And certain Chelsea players' mates in the media as well..

Ridiculous decision, with some luck Tottenham continue to struggle and are stuck with the Europa League that they deserve.

MD1990

im glad to say AVB has got a new job
delighted for him

Dolph Starbeam

kryogen wrote: »

Not surprising and he must have known with bringing in so many players for so much money over the summer he was going to be under pressure to be very very good.

That would be understandable if he picked the players that were going to be signed, by the sounds of it he had no choice in who was signed, which is crazy. Though he took the job under those conditions so he should have known what was going to happen. I still believe if given a proper chance he will succeed somewhere, very stubborn with his tactics though even though he doesn't have the right to play how he wants.

Lucas Hood

So what's the first thing the new manager does ? Get rid of that silly high line the defence plays ?

Dempsey

Daniel Levy should sack himself while he's at it.

DeanAustin

average_runner wrote: »

Sure Everton have done that on no budget!!!

I think Spurs have wasted alot of money over the last few years, trying to buy quick success!!

Except they haven't. In the 8 seasons I'm talking about:

1. Everton have finished in the top 6 four times (to Spurs' six times).
2. They've also haven't finished fourth (which Spurs have twice)
3. Everton finished behind Spurs in six of those eight seasons.
4. They've qualified for Europe three times to Spurs seven times.

Their financial results have also been consistently worse than Spurs'.

And Everton are also a pretty well run club.

brevity

MD1990 wrote: »

im glad to say AVB has got a new job
delighted for him

The big 'L' in the middle really tops it off.

Grayditch

I hope he's a good Rally driver.

Not being smart, if that's what he really wants to do, I hope he does well.

LuckyLloyd

Playboy wrote: »

Spurs have an extremely talented squad. In the hands of a manager of a manger who knows how to get the best out of his players they will be a real force. I honestly think Spurs are a left back and midfield playmaker short of a title challenging side.

There are very few players in the spurs squad who I would get rid of. Defoe, Naughton, Friedal and maybe Adebayor if a new coach cant get him motivated.

Unfortunately, an attitude like this will make the Spurs job extremely difficult. You need to be in the top four working towards a title challenge AND playing the beautiful football.

Dawson
Walker
Goalkeeper (Lloris + Friedel)
Naughton
Defoe
Lennon
Rose
Kaboul
Townsend

have 144 appearances between them thus far this season. That's a lot of gametime for players not good enough to partake in a title challenge imo.

wandatowell

I was delighted at Spurs being **** with AVB.


Whats gonna happen IF they get a good manager

wandatowell

Spurs lol

super_furry

Please let it be Hoddle.

DazMarz

I do think that AVB has/had potential to be a brilliant manager.

At Chelsea, he came in all guns blazing and was going to try and turn the squad around far too quickly. When he took over at Chelsea, he was only 33. He was not much older than three pivotal players at Chelsea (Terry, Lampard, Cech) and apparently had designs to get rid of the three of them (whatever about Cech, he most positively had aims to move Terry and Lampard on).

Player power is too powerful at Chelsea. I'm a Chelsea fan and I hate that aspect of the club. If Terry or Lampard or any other big senior player isn't happy, they're listened to more than anyone.

I got a real feeling that AVB wasn't taken seriously at Chelsea; he was not much older than some of the players themselves, and I could imagine a "Who the fúck is this?"/"Who the fúck does he think he is?!" mentality creeping in. Especially when he went to rid the club of it's captain and vice-captain.

At Chelsea, the results also suffered badly; losses to Man United, Arsenal, QPR, Liverpool (twice), Everton, Napoli and then the infamous final loss to West Brom. Players openly questioned his tactics, influential and potentially match-winning players were frozen out and it was a club in meltdown. He was passionate (anyone could see that), but he was tactically naive and alienated a lot of players. When he was shown the door and RDM replaced him, league form did not improve much... but there was another trophy secured that May that made it all better.

At Spurs, it appears to be a similar set of problems that erupted. Maybe player power wasn't as much of a problem, but problems with tactics, alienating players, etc. all arose and as a result performances and results dipped. Not as dramatically as would be expected, but they dipped nonetheless.

I would not go so far as to call him a spoofer. I'd say stubborn more than anything; sticking with a high defensive line is fine if you have nippy centre-halves. But Spurs playing a high defensive line with a pair of not so nippy centre-halves means that they were caught on the break and suffered defensively a lot.

Lack of goal scoring was also evident; when a player who only started playing again in mid-September has outscored your team by 2 goals... that boy ain't right...

I reckon he will find another job soon enough; he was offered the PSG and Real Madrid jobs in the summer, but his star will have fallen considerably since then. A move to Spain or Italy or perhaps even back to Portugal would be better for him, perhaps.

In June, 2013, he stated he would also retire from football within a decade to compete in the Dakar Rally... maybe that could come sooner than he thinks!

DeanAustin

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Unfortunately, an attitude like this will make the Spurs job extremely difficult. You need to be in the top four working towards a title challenge AND playing the beautiful football.

Dawson
Walker
Goalkeeper (Lloris + Friedel)
Naughton
Defoe
Lennon
Rose
Kaboul
Townsend

have 144 appearances between them thus far this season. That's a lot of gametime for players not good enough to partake in a title challenge imo.

I won't get into some of the other ones but if you think Lloris is not good enough for a league winning side, you don't watch enough football.

PhlegmyMoses

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Unfortunately, an attitude like this will make the Spurs job extremely difficult. You need to be in the top four working towards a title challenge AND playing the beautiful football.

Dawson
Walker
Goalkeeper (Lloris + Friedel)
Naughton
Defoe
Lennon
Rose
Kaboul
Townsend

have 144 appearances between them thus far this season. That's a lot of gametime for players not good enough to partake in a title challenge imo.

Spurs are not a title challenging squad. Really unrealistic from that dude. Wait until City start pulling away from all the other teams around February and a lot of fans will see the difference between their squads and the likes of City.

This season has been a bit weird with all the managerial changes and it has otherwise realistic fans of less wealthy clubs thinking their team should be in with a shout.

Chelsea are going to improve under Mourinho and City are already showing signs of dominance. Money shows.

Mars Bar

DeanAustin wrote: »

I won't get into some of the other ones but if you think Lloris is not good enough for a league winning side, you don't watch enough football.

Lloris could do with with not getting caught in no mans land so often.

smileyj1987

Playboy wrote: »

Adebayor if a new coach cant get him motivated.

Let's be honest , the only to get him motivated is to play him on a weekly contract .