AVB sacked

P_1

Awfully short sighted knee jerk decision. The joys of being a Spurs fan, one step forward, 3 steps back. Plus ça change.

davycc

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

In other news, where the hell is Saab Ed!!!!!!:D

he closed his account sadly..:( was a great contributer on the Motors forum where i usually hang out:)

im sad to see AVB go but he has had long enough and is too stubborn to change his defensive ways...we have been brutal to watch since he took over

deco72

Martin Jol would be great to have back. He got us starting to play proper decent football before he got the sack for no reason at all. I'd take him along with Berbatov.

Snake Plisken

Jol is not going to happen as it would make Levy look foolish for sacking him in the first place! Also didn't really work out for him at Fulham.

Fizman

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

I would have liked to see him given 2-3 more games.

With Levy's record, god knows who we will end up with now. Some flavour of the month no doubt. Laudrup or Martinez.

How about someone with proven pedigree. Someone who has actually one league titles in the top leagues of europe.

And good God - anyone but Benitez

You're having a laugh right?

Why in the name of sweet Jesus would Martinez leave a solid club with a very sensible ,stable-minded chairman, who just happen to be great shape...........and join, with all due respect a club that hasn't a clue where it's going. If Levy / Baldini had a boss, that boss would have the easiest decision to make, as they are both having a nightmare.

As a Liverpool fan, I think it's a joke AVB was sacked. Spurs are 8 points off top, and 5 off 4th. Farcical.

P_1

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Jol is not going to happen as it would make Levy look foolish for sacking him in the first place! Also didn't really work out for him at Fulham.

Ah but he only got the sack there because the owner finally realised that finishing last in the prem doesn't get you a 1st round draft pick...

2nd Row Donkey

Fizman wrote: »

You're having a laugh right?

Why in the name of sweet Jesus would Martinez leave a solid club with a very sensible ,stable-minded chairman, who just happen to be great shape...........and join, with all due respect a club that hasn't a clue where it's going. If Levy / Baldini had a boss, that boss would have the easiest decision to make, as they are both having a nightmare.

I never said Martinez (or Laudrup for that matter) would want to leave their clubs and come to Spurs. I mentioned them in reference to my 'flavour of the month' comment. Both a good managers, doing well at the moment. But they haven't a proven record yet or won anything of substance ... much like AVB when he was appointed - young, exciting, hungry and highly regarded but I'd like someone with a proven track record.

golfball37

Anyone know if Steffan Fruend got the chop also?

mushykeogh

golfball37 wrote: »

Anyone know if Steffan Fruend got the chop also?

Id imagine so, think he was a token gesture as an assistant anyway.

budgemook

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

I never said Martinez (or Laudrup for that matter) would want to leave their clubs and come to Spurs. I mentioned them in reference to my 'flavour of the month' comment. Both a good managers, doing well at the moment. But they haven't a proven record yet or won anything of substance ... much like AVB when he was appointed - young, exciting, hungry and highly regarded but I'd like someone with a proven track record.

Yet you say anyone but Benitez?

- Proven track record
- Shed load of trophies
- has always attracted top players
- 3rd in the league

Good one. Not that Spurs would have a hope of getting him anyway.

2nd Row Donkey

My preference is for someone with a proven record as opposed to 'the next big thing' in football management, as long as that person isn't Benitez. What the problem with that opinion.

Plenty of people saying similar and saying they dont want Capaello because of his style of football. I don't see you jumping all over them.

tippspur

I'm shocked that some people on here say that they are 'shocked' that AVB got the boot this morning,if you were at WHL yesterday like I was and witnessed that horror show you would know why Levy did what he did.
What the chairman should do now is offer the present Southampton manager whatever he wants to take Spurs job.

budgemook

2nd Row Donkey wrote: »

My preference is for someone with a proven record as opposed to 'the next big thing' in football management, as long as that person isn't Benitez. What the problem with that opinion.

Plenty of people saying similar and saying they dont want Capaello because of his style of football. I don't see you jumping all over them.

Fair enough. Now that you've added clarity I'm good.

I don't see who's available that meets your criteria bar Capello though. Wouldn't fancy him myself.

DeanAustin

It's doing my head in that the usual "Sacking the manager is madness. You need stability. In 1986, if United had sacked Alex Ferguson..." types are out in force.

Persisting with a man that doesn't know what he's doing is not going to bring success. The signs were there that AVB hadn't a clue what to do with the resources at his disposal. He looked lost. That's why he was sacked.

SeaDaily

DeanAustin wrote: »

It's doing my head in that the usual "Sacking the manager is madness. You need stability. In 1986, if United had sacked Alex Ferguson..." types are out in force.

Persisting with a man that doesn't know what he's doing is not going to bring success. The signs were there that AVB hadn't a clue what to do with the resources at his disposal. He looked lost. That's why he was sacked.

But the signs were exactly the same for Ferguson at that point, so you've basically just disproved your own point by mentioning Ferguson.

jaykay74

DeanAustin wrote: »

In 1986, if United had sacked Alex Ferguson..." types are out in force.

Would have been harsh in fairness, he was only appointed that Nov.

DeanAustin

SeaDaily wrote: »

But the signs were exactly the same for Ferguson at that point, so you've basically just disproved your own point by mentioning Ferguson.

Not really. Ferguson inherited a team at the bottom of the league with a huge problem in terms of culture. AVB didn't.

The game has also changed hugely since then. Finishing mid-table wasn't nearly as costly as it is now. You could recover in those days, as Fergie eventually did. Nowadays it's much harder because of the financial rewards.

Point is that Fergie was a one off. You can't judge every manager by Ferguson.

DeanAustin

jaykay74 wrote: »

Would have been harsh in fairness, he was only appointed that Nov.

He's lucky Daniel Levy wasn't his chairman.

mushykeogh

mushykeogh wrote: »

Id imagine so, think he was a token gesture as an assistant anyway.

Just seen on the website that he is staying.

2nd Row Donkey

mushykeogh wrote: »

Just seen on the website that he is staying.

Dean Austin ... Thats some username for a Spurs supporter. He was some can a p1ss that fella.

jobeenfitz

I'm dissapointed We have sacked another manager. Whats done is done though and what matters now is getting the right man for the job.

This will be our tenth manager (not counting interem or caretakers) since Wenger was appointed at Arsenal.

Who is the right man is a big question, too big for me anyway.

tom1ie

bollix to it anyway here we go again.
I for one would not like to see capello take over, terrible brand of football, but with baldini in levys ear its not looking too good:(

positivenote

personally I think they should redesign the new stadium to resemble as close as they can a big top, because we have been a circus of an outfit for 30 years and we have a clown as a ring master at the helm. still nothing surprises us anymore...

curraghyid

Who ever gets the job it will be a punt, Capella no thanks, rijkaard why has he been out of management for so long?. De boer why would he want the job.
Tottenham boss not exactly stable employment. Failure generally leads to long term unemployment and career rebuilding at a lower tier club.

Hoddle and arry at least you know what you are getting but they are a step backwards .

So we are at the all too familiar juncture for spurs fans , the new manager quest, for now we will have Tim Sherwood, who I seem to remember reading before is held in high regard by Levy, is this the answer an appointment from within?.

I for one am sick to death of the merry go round of managers and ridiculous expectation that goes with each appointment, what will the new guy be expected to do steady the ship push on to top 4 or your out.

I thought we had finally got the man to guide us to success after graham,hoddle,slantini,gross,jol,Ramos,arry all deemed fallures by Levy after appointment by levy.

When does joe Lewis step in and say actually Daniel you are the failure.

yiddo59

DeanAustin wrote: »

It's doing my head in that the usual "Sacking the manager is madness. You need stability. In 1986, if United had sacked Alex Ferguson..." types are out in force.

Persisting with a man that doesn't know what he's doing is not going to bring success. The signs were there that AVB hadn't a clue what to do with the resources at his disposal. He looked lost. That's why he was sacked.

Agree talking about Fergie and his early days isn;t relevant. The game has moved on (probably not for the better) and no way would any manger get the time Fergie got back then.

yiddo59

16th December 2013 - Peter Principle and the Goalackticos
So farewell AVB then. In my view it is for the best, for him and for Spurs.
It is a shame that the man who employs him hasn’t fallen on his sword, but we know that would never happen.

The Peter Principle is the theory that people are promoted due to execptional performance, away from the areas where they demonstrated their strengths to a level of incompetence.
Effective management is a skill. Like any skill it can be learned, and people get can better with experience. Some people are not suited to it and never perform well no matter how many chances they are given. And some just remain incompetent.

There is general consensus even amongst his detractors that AVB is a great scout and strategist. He has an ability to analyse games and assess players strengths and weaknesses above the norm, as evidenced by his 70 page dossiers. It does seem that Mourinho in his second coming is not so special without AVB at his side and he clearly brings value to a team.
But that ability does not mean he will naturally be a good manager. When he was at Spurs, Harry was criticised for his over-reliance on his favourite players, and (quite often) setting the team up completely wrong from the kick-off. But his strength, (double faced hypocrisy aside) honed by over 1,000 games at the helm is an ability to read the game and make tactical adjustments whilst a game is in progress. Sometimes it worked, sometimes the wheels fell off but there was always a plan.


AVB, like any manager would also make tactical adjustments, but from what I could see the adjustments were always attacking changes. I can’t remember him changing things to tighten the defence in games that were finely balanced. He was better at setting teams up from the kick-off but not as good at making adjustments when things were going wrong. There is a difference between handing out dossiers and communicating key instructions whilst a game is in progress.


The detractors will say that Harry was the man who tried to sell Bale, and was initially reluctant to play Modric anywhere than on the left. But he was also the man who moved Bale from left-back and first played him across the pitch (despite the Spurs football geniuses telling him ‘he plays on the left’) and laid the foundations for the development of both players at Spurs, ultimately for the benefit of the fans of Real Madrid.

When AVB started at Spurs he had the rare luxury for a manager of taking over a team that was not in crisis or locked in a struggle and indeed a squad that had just finished 4th. He inherited a challenge as Spurs had sold Modric and had to remodel itself and has had to do so again this summer with the sale of bale. But he was provided with over £150m to fashion a new team, and it on that basis he has to be judged.

There is nothing wrong with the decision to employ a high tempo pressing game, with a high defensive line. These are tactics that work well at a number of other teams including Southampton and Barcelona. They also worked to some degree at Spurs, when Spurs play weaker/ poorer teams and can dominate the possession, but have fallen apart when Spurs play teams at the same level or above their level.
Spurs have struggled to adapt to AVB’s tactics and have looked to have been going backwards in recent weeks. That is not a surprise as other clubs will have been analysing Spurs’ weaknesses as the season has progressed and would have been working on how to exploit them.
But even if the team looked comfortable in what they were doing, which has not been the case, the tactics are not infallible.
Barcelona always struggled with their tactics when faced with Chelsea’s deep lying defence and the ability to hit them on the break with the power of Drogba.
Using Chelsea as the example again, they showed the potential problems of the system when Mourinho played Ba alongside Torres and employed a longer ball game against Southampton this season.
Spurs under AVB have struggled to adjust their tactics when plan A doesn’t work. It seems to be the default mode to play the high defensive line, regardless of the opposition or the available personnel who are not best suited for it (eg Dawson). It is on that basis that AVB has to be judged.

AVB’s Spurs were never set up properly to play the tactical system AVB wanted to employ. Arguably the personnel signed to play the system are not right, and yet he spent over £150m to try and do so.
To simplify the analysis, the Barcelona bluepint is:
A high defensive line, Inverted wingers, consistent pressing and a centre forward who can hold the ball/ bring the team into play. Crucial to the system are 3 centre-midfielders to dominate possession, 1 with defensive strengths (Busquets), 1 with the ability to retain/ recyle possession (Xavi) and one to provide vision (Iniesta). All of course are top quality players and all are capable of all 3 things, but that is arguably their greatest strength which is their main function in the team. If that is the blueprint AVB wanted to follow and despite having spent £150m in his time at Spurs, it is damning that the club has no one capable of playing Xavi role, and that role is the most crucial to make the system work. Arguably Tom Carroll could have been asked to play such a role, but he was loaned out to QPR for his development. Huddlestone could have played that role, but was deemed too immobile and sold.
Equally damning, through his man management, AVB also alienated the one striker in the club in Adebayor who could have made his system function. There are massive questions as to Adebayor’s commitment and it may be the right decision to drum him out of the club. But in his absence Spurs have tried to employ one of two poachers, in Defoe and Saldado, who are asked to play a game which does not suit their strengths.
If you are going to spend £26m on a striker, you would assume you’d want to employ him in a way to maximise his strengths and get the level of performance that prompted the £26m payment in the first place.
I can understand it takes time for players to adjust to the premier league, and we have yet to see the talent of Lamela, much like it took Gareth Bale some time to bring his ‘A’ game to the party. But Soldado seems to have settled in quickly and was playing well at the start of the season. It is AVB’s tactical inflexibility that turned him into a blunt instrument and him and his teammates into the ‘Goalackticos’. On that basis, AVB should be judged.

AVB came to Spurs having managed only 2 seasons in Portugal and half a season at Chelsea. His experience, mainly as a scout, would not have given him the background in man management to handle different personalities or how to lift a team going through a run of bad form. All managers go through it, and I am sure a lot of PL players leave a lot to be desired as employees, and very manager has fallen out with their players at some point, most famously Fergie and Keane. But the better managers will bury the hatchet if they believe the player can do a job for the team. In his time at Spurs, and Chelsea it is not clear that AVB had developed the necessary skills to handle personality clashes. He was unable to handle BAE (who is a committed Tottenham player, whether you rate him or not) and Adebayor, the two players whose tweeted photograph shows their true feelings at his departure. If BAE had been at Spurs this season, the team would not have had to shuffle Vertonghen to cover the left, the defence would have been more settled and arguably better balanced.

I have to confess I never wanted AVB as the Spurs manager and I am relieved he has gone.
I can see he has some good ideas but ultimately in my view, he is not the man who is capable of turning those ideas into reality.
I like him as a media personality and could never say the same about Harry. The press pack have clearly been out to get AVB since day 1, so much so that it would not have been a surprise to see the headline ‘watching AVB’s Spurs gives you cancer’. The attitude of the press made me more determined to support him as Spurs manager and prepared to give him more time than he probably merited. But ultimately I am relieved he has gone. He seems to me to be the living embodiment of the Peter Principle, a man promoted away from his field of expertise and above his level of competence.
The question now however is who do Spurs turn to next?

History under Enic and Levy would suggest that if they find a good man they won’t want to keep him, and if they find a poor one, they’ll give him money to spend and then sack him.
On that basis, it probably matters little who is lined up to replace AVB, as the trigger happy chairman will remain in place.

If Spurs are committed to the DOF vision/ high pressing game I would like to see them entice Pocchettino away from Southampton.
The nightmare scenario is that Pleat will be appointed as caretaker to the end of the season. If that happens, shoot me now.


Finally with the cup games looming it just remains to make the following observations
West ham in the cup is not a good omen for modern Spurs managers, so AVB’s cards were marked.
Enic sacked Goonersaurus just after the FA cup win at West Ham and just before a cup tie against the goons.
His replacement, Hoddle signed non-scoring forwards in Zamora and Postiga, and Zamora got his only Spurs goal in the league cup against West Ham.
Both Hoddle and Pleat were sacked the season after beating West Ham in the league cup. It may be better for the next man at WHL to take his seat after the league cup game has been played.
More encouragingly, in recent times West Ham tend to beat Spurs in seasons where they are relegated…. So even if they win, there will that to look forward to.

http://www.topspurs.com/thfccol-seanmorley.htm

curraghyid

A good read yiddo59 don't agree with everything and it's a little bit in hindsight, but it's on the button with regard to where do we go from here. The more comment you read there is a big split in the pundits regarding "was it time to go" or " should he have got more time".

Even Lawro reckons he was sacked prematurely and he hates spurs.

Leinstersqspur

Still in shock lads, pretty disappointed it didn't work out for AVB but more disheartened by the direction of the club. Levy sacking managers for fun.

Robxxx7

I think more now than at any other time the pressure is starting to build on Levy himself ... He is the one common denominator in all this managemnt fiasco we have had since ENIC took over. We have all asked for some stability but he hires and fires managers like its a common days occurrence.

His next appointment could be the one that finally breaks the camels back and starts shifting huge calls for his own sacking..
He evidently has a great working relationship with Sherwood .. Sherwood, someone who still has an Arse*** tattoo on his leg .. i don't want this guy managing my club, we are better than this... but is this Levy's huge masterstroke ?? ..

This next appointment for our club i think will have big ramifications in the future .. we need to get it right now and stick with them

DeanAustin

I understand the frustration of people here but do we really need managerial stability? Does it exist in football anymore?

On the continent, successful clubs change managers every other season. In England, City and Chelsea are doing likewise and other clubs are following that example. United (up to this year) and Arsenal are exceptions but they had very successful managers that took over in a different era and were successful. In the future, they won't be sticking with their men in that way. Look at the league this season. 25% of Premiership managers have gone before Christmas. Hughton, Moyes, Allardyce have also been under a lot of pressure. There have been whispers about Lambert, MacKay, Pardew and Hughes at various stages. Is managerial stability a thing of the past?

For a club like Spurs, if we have a manager that gets us to the top 4 regularly, how long before Madrid or PSG come calling? Your 5 year plan will be out the window in no time. If our manager doesn't get us top 4, then he's failing by the standard that we and the chairman have set so what's the point in a 5 year plan or long term stability?

I don't particularly like the way the game has gone but the default "have to stick with the manager, madness changing" isn't how football works anymore. Maybe that's why Levy is so enamoured with the DoF structure because there is less chance of his DoF being poached (Frank Arnesen aside) and therefore he has some foundation to build something and to keep some consistency.

Personally, I have faith in Levy. He's made some bad mistakes along the way but when you look at where he's brought Spurs i.e. from perennial mid table mediocrity to 4th or 5th place on a regular basis and done it within a budget, it's hard to see how much further along we could realistically be.